Kane traded to San Jose for a Cond. ‘19 1st, Dan O’ Regan and Conditional 4th

[dudacek]

I'm not complaining about anything JB did.  The market for Kane was poor, obviously.  My beef is with the "we have to get something" mentality that leads to very good players being moved for baubles.

 

This probably isn't the thread for it, but....

I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that it is somehow prudent to move a rental player for pennies on the dollar.  You almost never get back the quality of player you give up.  It is a guaranteed downgrade to your roster in nearly all cases.  IMO, if you let a player that you don't expect to re-sign go to rental stage, you are being incredibly irresponsible.  Move that player before the rental season in an honest to God hockey trade that gets equal value returned.  Anything else is setting your team backwards.  And this team has been doing exactly that since, what? 2011? 2012? 

 

In this case (Kane), my reaction is sour grapes.  JB is in his first year, so it's not like he was around to make that decision last season.  But this organization simply does not have enough depth of talent to continue to move players for a fraction of their on ice value as rentals. I'd hope any one year contract players that aren't part of the path forward get moved this offseason in hockey trades before we are forced to suffer through another deadline day of lottery tickets and AHL players that only move this team further backwards.

I think you are right, it’s just that you weren’t right if you had said the same thing three years ago.

It used to be that you could easily spin off a Vanek for a first-plus or a Stewart for a second and come out ahead.

Now, it is the rare team that can afford to raid the cupboard too often; cheap young talent is an absolute necessity in this league.

The market has changed as teams adapted to the CBA.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

From all appearances, and based on what the press is saying, Botterill blew it.  He waited too long to pull the trigger hoping for the ultimate outcome and put himself in the position of being at the mercy, at the deadline, of whoever would be willing to give him a nibble.  And that's exactly what he got, a nibble.  One would think he should have been able to acquire an unconditional future first round pick, and nothing else, for Kane, despite the fact he could be a rental.  Or get a prime prospect or two.  Instead, he got taken, unless there's any chance Kane will sign with San Jose.  But hey, it's Buffalo sports.

[Gramps]

Trade with Winnipeg looks pretty bad now, particularly considering that we are stuck with a bad contract with Bogosian.  GMTM did us no favors.

 

Bogo will rebound nicely next year.

[Huckleberry]

The Hawks got more for Hartman the we got for Kane says it all.

 

When I saw hartman go, I thought now we certainly get a 1st for kane.   But seems the sharks were the only ones offering.

[Sabel79]

From all appearances, and based on what the press is saying, Botterill blew it.  He waited too long to pull the trigger hoping for the ultimate outcome and put himself in the position of being at the mercy, at the deadline, of whoever would be willing to give him a nibble.  And that's exactly what he got, a nibble.  One would think he should have been able to acquire an unconditional future first round pick, and nothing else, for Kane, despite the fact he could be a rental.  Or get a prime prospect or two.  Instead, he got taken, unless there's any chance Kane will sign with San Jose.  But hey, it's Buffalo sports.

You’re assuming there was ever an actual better offer. That can not be assumed, knowing what we do now. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. JBOTs put the I want a first, roster player and prospect out there, but the market was never going to give him that. I have to believe he was hoping there would be a bidding war pushing the price up, but his own statement SJ was the only serious bidder puts paid to that idea.

[Huckleberry]

From all appearances, and based on what the press is saying, Botterill blew it.  He waited too long to pull the trigger hoping for the ultimate outcome and put himself in the position of being at the mercy, at the deadline, of whoever would be willing to give him a nibble.  And that's exactly what he got, a nibble.  One would think he should have been able to acquire an unconditional future first round pick, and nothing else, for Kane, despite the fact he could be a rental.  Or get a prime prospect or two.  Instead, he got taken, unless there's any chance Kane will sign with San Jose.  But hey, it's Buffalo sports.

 

Only the sharks made an offer , don't think any other team was interested.

[dudacek]

Ryan Hartman gets traded for more than Evander Kane because he will be cheap for another three years, has upside, and is already as good as the Preds should reasonably expect a first-rounder to be. Kane is better, but he’s yours for 20 games and is expensive to keep.

 

San Jose was the only team willing to pay that price because they were the only team who projected Kane as part of their core moving forward.

 

GMs are smarter than you credit them for. They’ve learned from people’s mistakes and there are fewer of them making them.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Mick O’Manly

[Huckleberry]

Ryan Hartman gets traded for more than Evander Kane because he will be cheap for another three years, has upside, and is already as good as the Preds should reasonably expect a first-rounder to be. Kane is better, but he’s yours for 20 games and is expensive.

 

San Jose was the only team willing to pay that price because they were the only team who projected Kane as part of their core moving forward.

 

Yeah and if they have the salary of Thornton coming of the books and will be able to resign kane.

[dudacek]

Yeah and if they have the salary of Thornton coming of the books and will be able to resign kane.

They have enough space to sign Kane and Tavares and if you believe the grapevine, that is exactly what they intend to try to do.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Mick O’Manly

[Weave]

I think you are right, it’s just that you weren’t right if you had said the same thing three years ago.

It used to be that you could easily spin off a Vanek for a first-plus or a Stewart for a second and come out ahead.

Now, it is the rare team that can afford to raid the cupboard too often; cheap young talent is an absolute necessity in this league.

The market has changed as teams adapted to the CBA.

 

Disagree.  Other than Gaustad (and that is debatable), what UFA-to-be dump did we make that brought equal on ice performance back?  Each one was a downgrade. 

[PASabreFan]

A Pen fan knocked my ass out before my test. Said it all. Told my buddy who drove me home I would have been fine to drive as I tried to get into a convenience store by pushing on a door that pulls open, then pushing again after he told me it was a puller. So take anything that follows with an asterisk.

 

Danny O Reagan is the prospect

Wellllll, there goes the Sabres franchise again. Will his nickname be The Gipper?

 

I really think you're missing his entire point 

How long has it been since I chose to multiquote this? Oh... the letter of SDS' comment was that only GM opinions count. We have no say. No . The spirit of it was to say fans' opinions don't matter. Odd, to say the least.

 

Sure.  There was value in keeping his rights until July 1 (and possibly re-signing him), and there was value in not letting the rest of the league know that you're not able to play poker with the grownups yet.

Thank you.

 

Is that the right question to ask? The most we can ask for is to maximize the return on an asset and that is determined by what others are willing to part with. We may have gotten the worst of this trade. But if this value is so low, if this is essentially the Sabres giving him away - why didn't anyone else offer more? It wouldn't have taken much to beat this deal to say the least.

Telling Botterill what they are willing to part with and what they were actually willing to part with are two entirely different things. (For me: no .) But it's a fine point worth making.

 

Can't you just let people be irrationally mad at Botterill in peace? 

SDS?

 

Proof? Oh come on man, nobody has proof of anything on a sports chat board. Let's not do that.

 

There is no way he couldn't have moved Kane for a true first (and probably a decent prospect) when Kane was on his hot streak right after the Duchene trade. That was the moment, but it was widely reported at that time that Botterill wanted a lot more than just a first and a good prospect. He blew it. 

Demanding proof from folks whose opinion you don't like is not a good look. Others said: none of us has proof of anything. Still, we debate.

 

Fans had Kane grossly overrated. He's a very talented hockey player who produce for maybe two and a half months this year, had some character questions, was a rental. The Sabres got a conditional 1st,a prospect and a 4th. I said earlier I expected a 2nd and a prospect so I guess I'm not disappointed because we got what I expected. This guy is no Rick Nash and those people who expected that return your fantasy hockey doesn't play in the real world.

Many fans grossly overrated him. Alas, they have scurried into the woodwork, or, worse, changed their stripes like a weasel politician. Don't they know we can go back 12 hours and read their posts?

 

And we wonder why politics threads aren't allowed here?

 

I swear some of you would shoot your dog the first time it crapped on the carpet all the while ignoring the fact that you fed it 6 bowls of food and didn't let it leave the house for 24 hours.

My carpet has almost 50 stains on it. This franchise needs to be put down.

[Weave]

My carpet has almost 50 stains on it. This franchise needs to be put down.

 

/thread

[PASabreFan]

But, but, I was told that Botterill was offered Sergachev and hung up the phone on Stevie Y

Don't remember why I multiquoted this.

 

I think botterill just was with his back against the wall thanks to the pegula's wanting kane gone.

Other GM's knew it and lowballed him,  Hartman got chicago a 2018 1st round pick , Hanzal got a good haul last year.

None of these players are better than kane.

 

Also the prices for UFA rentals were steep last two years and the buyers remorse after was high.

Good point on the Pegasi.

 

Just listened to GMJB's presser ... man is he uncomfortable in front of the media. 

Almost like he is not good under pressure?

It just sucks. That says it all. Can agree on at least that much? Stop spreading the turd frosting. Whether it's ownership, previous GMs or Botterill... today sucks.

[Huckleberry]

A Pen fan knocked my ass out before my test. Said it all. Told my buddy who drove me home I would have been fine to drive as I tried to get into a convenience store by pushing on a door that pulls open, then pushing again after he told me it was a puller. So take anything that follows with an asterisk.

 

Wellllll, there goes the Sabres franchise again. Will his nickname be The Gipper?

 

How long has it been since I chose to multiquote this? Oh... the letter of SDS' comment was that only GM opinions count. We have no say. No ######. The spirit of it was to say fans' opinions don't matter. Odd, to say the least.

 

Thank you.

 

Telling Botterill what they are willing to part with and what they were actually willing to part with are two entirely different things. (For me: no ######.) But it's a fine point worth making.

 

SDS?

 

Demanding proof from folks whose opinion you don't like is not a good look. Others said: none of us has proof of anything. Still, we debate.

Many fans grossly overrated him. Alas, they have scurried into the woodwork, or, worse, changed their stripes like a weasel politician. Don't they know we can go back 12 hours and read their posts?

 

My carpet has almost 50 stains on it. This franchise needs to be put down.

 

I always thought we'd get more back, I'm disappointed but still think he isn't that bad of a player.    And with luck we still get that 1st rounder.

[Brawndo]

The Hawks got more for Hartman the we got for Kane says it all.

  

######!!! Not a good look JBot.

Hartman is still on his ELC and will be a RFA his summer.

 

That’s part of the reason why he got a first in return

[Weave]

  

Hartman is still on his ELC and will be a RFA his summer.

 

That’s part of the reason why he got a first in return

 

And that's it right there.  If you wait until a player reaches rental stage, you can't get equal value generally.  If they are traded with term, you can make a real hockey trade.

[PotentPowerPlay22]

It’s just not going to happen. The Sabres clearly have no interest.

No, Kane is gone. Also,I highly doubt San Jose signs him. San Jose just got a quality rental and didn't give up too much. On paper, the Sabres lost this trade. I'm disappointed. 

 

It's not hard to be a bottom feeder every year when your GM's keep losing trades. Let's face it: the Sabres are where they are for a reason.

[bunomatic]

Well I think JBot did one of two things when he initially asked for the moon. He put it in the fans heads that that might be the return for Kane and he also scared away some of the teams that may have been suitors thereby limiting his chances of ever getting some sort of a bidding war going. Or San Jose was the only team that saw any value in Kane. In any case most of us overvalued his worth.

Edited February 27, 2018 by bunomatic

[PASabreFan]

I always thought we'd get more back, I'm disappointed but still think he isn't that bad of a player.    And with luck we still get that 1st rounder.

You and buno are quality human beings. I don't care what people are saying in PMs.

[Ho-Chi-Sock]

The only GM that would have given up a guaranteed first, a vet, solid, unspectacular-but-sure-thing prospect, and a conditional pick for resigning for Kane would be Tim Murray himself.

You and buno are quality human beings. I don't care what people are saying in PMs.

 

At what point are the sloppy "I love you man!"s going to start flying out?

[bunomatic]

The only GM that would have given up a guaranteed first, a vet, solid, unspectacular-but-sure-thing prospect, and a conditional pick for resigning for Kane would be Tim Murray himself.

 

At what point are the sloppy "I love you man!"s going to start flying out?

 

 

You and buno are quality human beings. I don't care what people are saying in PMs.

Hey ! I resemble that remark.

[3putt]

I think you are right, it’s just that you weren’t right if you had said the same thing three years ago.

It used to be that you could easily spin off a Vanek for a first-plus or a Stewart for a second and come out ahead.

Now, it is the rare team that can afford to raid the cupboard too often; cheap young talent is an absolute necessity in this league.

The market has changed as teams adapted to the CBA.

One reason is that good teams value cost controlled players, i.e. especially those on ELCs. However, that also requires playing said players. PH seems to value the inabilites of Nolan and Pomminstein far more than he is willing to tolerate the errors of youth of a Baptiste or Fasching. I’m all for a good farm team but its purpose is to serve the big club. If we are willing to endure the foibles of a rookie GM and HC we should at least be entitles to enjoy the speed and enthusiasm of our drafted youth. Play the kids in meaningful minutes. If they suck get new kids.

[dudacek]

One reason is that good teams value cost controlled players, i.e. especially those on ELCs. However, that also requires playing said players. PH seems to value the inabilites of Nolan and Pomminstein far more than he is willing to tolerate the errors of youth of a Baptiste or Fasching. I’m all for a good farm team but its purpose is to serve the big club. If we are willing to endure the foibles of a rookie GM and HC we should at least be entitles to enjoy the speed and enthusiasm of our drafted youth. Play the kids in meaningful minutes. If they suck get new kids.

I’m wondering how much of this we are going to see over the last 20 games.

We’ve seen Nelson get a good look and we’re starting to see a little more of Antipin.

Will Baptiste get more minutes? Will O’Reagan, Smith, Fasching, Guhle Bailey Nylander Ullmark see any time up here?

 

We’ve got four open contract slots.

Will Mittelstadt and Borgen be signed? Any college free agents?

Can Possler and Asplund get a look-see when the Swedish league is done?

Edited February 27, 2018 by Mick O’Manly

[3putt]

I don’t think there is enough time for the Swedes, league ends around the 10th and some are in playooff position. If UM misses the NCAAs CM is a possibility but without Eichel in the lineup he will have no protection. Borgen is a possibility if the deal is to burn a year of the elc, but that doesn’t mean we will actually see him, see Antipin, Victor. With two goalies Ulmark stays down. DOR will get a cameo for pr purposes. I suspect that we will see a waiver move and gulp even Moulson called up to protect the Amerks. But if Baptiste sits for Nolan or is buried on the 4th line we are never going to see his ceiling only his floor.

[Huckleberry]

You and buno are quality human beings. I don't care what people are saying in PMs.

 

Seriously thanks for keeping this forum Lighthearted this year.    you truly are one of the guys keeping my spirits up with this team.