Jbot Do Something Already 3 - deadline edition

[GASabresIUFAN]

Don’t just slam doors do something. Send someone packing. Waive a crappy vet. Do something!

 

Earlier in the year he demoted Moulson and acquired Wilson and the team was better for it. The deadline is still a few weeks away, but something needs to be done now. While appeasing the fan base isn’t a reason to do something, sending a message to the lockeroom is.

 

First step: trade Lehner or Kane now.

2nd step: waive now Nolan, Josefson and or Gorges.

[Thorny]

Should be able to trade Gorges for a late pick rather than waiving him, if the rumours are true.

 

I’m all for upgrading the roster where possible, its hugely necessary. I don’t see much benefit however in the outright waiving of guys like Nolan and Josefson who appear to at least be trying hard.

 

I think I’m at the point where I believe Lehner’s play and attitude is having a negative affect on the psyche of the team, so I have no problem with him getting moved ASAP.

 

Botterill is going to look like ice-in-his-veins genius, or a dope, regarding the Kane situation. If he’s holding to his high ask, gambling on the injury/poor play front, and another GM blinks and pays his ask or even somewhat close to, full props to him.

 

If he held out all this time allowing Kane to go through the motions out there, and Kane gets hurt before the deadline, or the return is minimal, he should have bit the bullet and moved him sooner instead of facilitating this long-running distraction.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if Botterill is feeling some pressure at this point. Attendance is way down, the Sabres are the worst team in the NHL or might soon be, again, and the one positive people pointed to, the Amerks, have now lost more games than they have won this season.

 

It’s going too be tough to make significant changes around the deadline, at this time of year, but hopefully he makes at least a few smaller adjustments, so the Sabres have a chance to finish the season strong, perhaps signifying winds of change where next season is concerned.

[PASabreFan]

Srsly about the Amerks? I guess I should look at some standings.

[pi2000]

Don't panic. The market will improve as the deadline approaches.

 

The time to send message was in the Fall. There's nothing to gain by panic selling this close to the deadline.

[7+6=13]

Should be able to trade Gorges for a late pick rather than waiving him, if the rumours are true.

 

I’m all for upgrading the roster where possible, its hugely necessary. I don’t see much benefit however in the outright waiving of guys like Nolan and Josefson who appear to at least be trying hard.

 

I think I’m at the point where I believe Lehner’s play and attitude is having a negative affect on the psyche of the team, so I have no problem with him getting moved ASAP.

 

Botterill is going to look like ice-in-his-veins genius, or a dope, regarding the Kane situation. If he’s holding to his high ask, gambling on the injury/poor play front, and another GM blinks and pays his ask or even somewhat close to, full props to him.

 

If he held out all this time allowing Kane to go through the motions out there, and Kane gets hurt before the deadline, or the return is minimal, he should have bit the bullet and moved him sooner instead of facilitating this long-running distraction.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if Botterill is feeling some pressure at this point. Attendance is way down, the Sabres are the worst team in the NHL or might soon be, again, and the one positive people pointed to, the Amerks, have now lost more games than they have won this season.

 

It’s going too be tough to make significant changes around the deadline, at this time of year, but hopefully he makes at least a few smaller adjustments, so the Sabres have a chance to finish the season strong, perhaps signifying winds of change where next season is concerned.

 

If Kane isn't being offered for something significant for the future Sabres then why deal him - just because fans are scared of every possible negative thing?  What if he gets injured and we get nothing?  Then who cares - if we weren't getting something strong in return.  It's best to wait until a team gets emotional about the playoffs.  

 

Why in the hell would you want the "worst team or might soon be" to finish strong?  That's just not smart.  Sell sell sell and lets give ourselves every single percentage to make our team better down the line.  We don't have to admit to being in full blown rebuild mode for it to be true.  

[Thorny]

Don't panic. The market will improve as the deadline approaches.

The time to send message was in the Fall. There's nothing to gain by panic selling this close to the deadline.

Let’s say the offers don’t improve, if they are indeed not coming close to meeting Botteril’s ask. Should he dump Kane for whatever he can get at the deadline?

[Sabel79]

As I mentioned in another thread earlier, literally can't remember which one, there are 25 guys under contract for next year, including Rochester and Moulson. Whoever gets traded between now and October further diminishes this number in all likelihood. This is a blank slate. JBOTs and Housley are on the clock effective next season.

[Thorny]

If Kane isn't being offered for something significant for the future Sabres then why deal him - just because fans are scared of every possible negative thing?  What if he gets injured and we get nothing?  Then who cares - if we weren't getting something strong in return.  It's best to wait until a team gets emotional about the playoffs.  

 

Why in the hell would you want the "worst team or might soon be" to finish strong?  That's just not smart.  Sell sell sell and lets give ourselves every single percentage to make our team better down the line.  We don't have to admit to being in full blown rebuild mode for it to be true.

 

I provided a detailed answer to this very inquiry from you in another thread, with no response. So it’s nice to know comments about the benefits of winning are going by the wayside. I’m not writing it all out again.

 

Serious question, how many times do the Sabres have to be terrible and draft top 10, with no improvement, until people admit that picking high is no guarantee of ANY kind of success?

 

If the Sabres are terrible again next year, after yet another high pick, will the refrain again be about losing to get a high picks? Lose for Hughes?

 

It’s doesnt necessarily work. It’s clearly not working for the Sabres.

 

I would start to wonder about the mouse than keeps going back and pushing that same button, even though it’s transmitting an electric shock every time it’s pushed.

[7+6=13]

Let’s say the offers don’t improve, if they are indeed not coming close to meeting Botteril’s ask. Should he dump Kane for whatever he can get at the deadline?

 

Of course but what's the difference?  Sell him low weeks ago or wait until a team gets smitten near the deadline?  The only thing that could happen between dumping him then or if we don't get good offers by the deadline is an injury.  Seems Kane and the Sabres are doing everything to ensure that doesn't happen.  

[Thorny]

Of course but what's the difference?  Sell him low weeks ago or wait until a team gets smitten near the deadline?  The only thing that could happen between dumping him then or if we don't get good offers by the deadline is an injury.  Seems Kane and the Sabres are doing everything to ensure that doesn't happen.

 

Are the other players aware of this? Must be, if we are.

 

Is that a good message to send? Always play hard - well, except when you don’t have to?

[7+6=13]

I provided a detailed answer to this very inquiry from you in another thread, with no response. So it’s nice to know comments about the benefits of winning are going by the wayside. I’m not writing it all out again.

 

Serious question, how many times do the Sabres have to be terrible and draft top 10, with no improvement, until people admit that picking high is no guarantee of ANY kind of success?

 

If the Sabres are terrible again next year, after yet another high pick, will the refrain again be about losing to get a high picks? Lose for Hughes?

 

It’s doesnt necessarily work. It’s clearly not working for the Sabres.

 

I would start to wonder about the mouse than keeps going back and pushing that same button, even though it’s transmitting an electric shock every time it’s pushed.

 

I apologize for not seeing your response in the other thread and I respect the thoughts you have.  It's not like it's fun for me or something I wished for.  It's a consolation prize for an awfully disappointing season.  I thought we'd knock on the playoff door and was shocked at the atrocious start that subsequently continued to date.  So now my thoughts have to switch to what's the next best thing for the club.  We're fortunate that we're not bound contractually to this current team - we have plenty of cap space and we're about to get a very nice first round pick.  

Are the other players aware of this? Must be, if we are.

 

Is that a good message to send? Always play hard - well, except when you don’t have to?

 

I don't like it either.  It's repulsive the effort this team gives but I just don't care about messages at this point.  This team deserves the turnover it's about to experience and any message will be leaving in said players.  

[Thorny]

I apologize for not seeing your response in the other thread and I respect the thoughts you have. It's not like it's fun for me or something I wished for. It's a consolation prize for an awfully disappointing season. I thought we'd knock on the playoff door and was shocked at the atrocious start that subsequently continued to date. So now my thoughts have to switch to what's the next best thing for the club. We're fortunate that we're not bound contractually to this current team - we have plenty of cap space and we're about to get a very nice first round pick.

 

There’s no apology needed.

 

I respect the other side of the argument as well. I’m just ready to try something else at this point. Losing out and picking high isn’t working. Maybe having a strong finish could indicate different results going forward.

 

It’s been so long, I’m eliminating the middle-man: I have no interest in hoping for winning via losing. I’m just going to root for wins.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Thorny

[7+6=13]

There’s no apology needed.

 

I respect the other side of the argument as well. I’m just ready to try something else at this point. Losing out and picking high isn’t working. Maybe having a strong finish could indicate different results going forward.

 

It’s been so long, I’m eliminating the middle-man: I’m not rooting for winning via losing, It’s time to just root for winning.

 

I get it man but we're in this predicament as fans because this team stinks and they haven't earned our cheer.  They've forced us (ok me) to be selfish.  You've put me through this season now I damn sure don't need you to make it worse by taking percentage from me.  

 

I know you know but rooting to win has no effect on the ice.  I'm rooting for me now and my teams future interests before a handful of players playing better so they can stay in the NHL on another team. 

[Gramps]

I provided a detailed answer to this very inquiry from you in another thread, with no response. So it’s nice to know comments about the benefits of winning are going by the wayside. I’m not writing it all out again.

 

Serious question, how many times do the Sabres have to be terrible and draft top 10, with no improvement, until people admit that picking high is no guarantee of ANY kind of success?

 

If the Sabres are terrible again next year, after yet another high pick, will the refrain again be about losing to get a high picks? Lose for Hughes?

 

It’s doesnt necessarily work. It’s clearly not working for the Sabres.

 

I would start to wonder about the mouse than keeps going back and pushing that same button, even though it’s transmitting an electric shock every time it’s pushed.

 

All one needs to do is look at the New England Patriots as an example. Always draft near last, build a core of solid players, and then supplement with established young talent. 

 

If you assume that 95-99% of drafted players are a crapshoot to play well in the NHL, they why not trade Kane for existing prospects with a year or couple years under their belt instead of looking at a draft choice ?  

 

Botterill needs to establish the core and keep it the same as long as possible. IMO, you can't roll 10-12 players every year and expect the team to win the next season. Also, we need to stop signing guys like Pommers/Gorges at the tail end of their career.  Sure the team needs leadership, but the leadership doesn't have to be at the end of their career. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Gramps

[7+6=13]

All one needs to do is look at the New England Patriots as an example. Always draft near last, build a core of solid players, and then supplement with established young talent. 

 

If you assume that 95-99% of drafted players are a crapshoot to play well in the NHL, they why not trade Kane for existing prospects with a year or couple years under their belt instead of looking at a draft choice ?  

 

Botterill needs to establish the core and keep it the same as long as possible. IMO, you can't roll 10-12 players every year and expect the team to win the next season. Also, we need to stop signing guys like Pommers/Gorges at the tail end of their career.  Sure the team needs leadership, but the leadership doesn't have to be at the end of their career. 

 

We didn't sign Pommers - we traded to get rid of Ennis with the opportunity to also get a defenseman in Scandella.   You want Ennis back?

[Gramps]

We didn't sign Pommers - we traded to get rid of Ennis with the opportunity to also get a defenseman in Scandella.   You want Ennis back?

 

Agreed, but we now have Pominville who dead weight now and probably will be next year as well. Ennis will be playing next year and he and Pominville are 5 pts apart and most of Pominville's points were at the beginning of the year. I actually liked Foligno - thought he came to play every game. 

 

So it's like we're paying 7-8 million for Scandella ... 

[PerreaultForever]

That's true, Pommers was a price we paid to land a defenseman they wanted. They wanted to dump cap money. Anything we got from Pommers was a bonus. 

 

I don't want to ever tank on purpose. The draft lottery wasn't won by the worst teams last year. No reason to think we'd be any worse off in any of the lower spots. 

 

At this stage of a lost season I'd forgive a few lackluster road games but no effort at home in front of your own fans is never acceptable. 

 

(But let's never hear praise for the New England Cheatriots ok? :))

[7+6=13]

Agreed, but we now have Pominville who dead weight now and probably will be next year as well. Ennis will be playing next year and he and Pominville are 5 pts apart and most of Pominville's points were at the beginning of the year. I actually liked Foligno - thought he came to play every game. 

 

So it's like we're paying 7-8 million for Scandella ... 

 

Not sure where you're getting those figures for Scandella and I like Foligno too but we had to get defense in here in the worst way.  Ennis and Pominville's contract length is the same with (if memory serves) Pominville 1 mil more in cap hit than Ennis.   

[Gramps]

Not sure where you're getting those figures for Scandella and I like Foligno too but we had to get defense in here in the worst way.  Ennis and Pominville's contract length is the same with (if memory serves) Pominville 1 mil more in cap hit than Ennis.   

 

I'm just adding in about $3 million of Pommers salary to Scandella's $4 mil as no way is Pommers a $5 a year player. I just don't want to see any more players at the tail end of their career for which we'll be asking how to buy them out or where should we send them.

[Crusader1969]

I provided a detailed answer to this very inquiry from you in another thread, with no response. So it’s nice to know comments about the benefits of winning are going by the wayside. I’m not writing it all out again.

Serious question, how many times do the Sabres have to be terrible and draft top 10, with no improvement, until people admit that picking high is no guarantee of ANY kind of success?

If the Sabres are terrible again next year, after yet another high pick, will the refrain again be about losing to get a high picks? Lose for Hughes?

It’s doesnt necessarily work. It’s clearly not working for the Sabres.

I would start to wonder about the mouse than keeps going back and pushing that same button, even though it’s transmitting an electric shock every time it’s pushed.

You are right, picking constantly in the top 10 gets you no where. Picking in top 3/4 is where you need to be.

 

For those who want this team to win out and finish as high in standings, what's your actual game plan to make this team good?

 

Cause, I've seen enough to know this team isn't good enough. You can wait for them to learn to win or replace them with better players? I'll take the 2nd option. Every year we see teams turn around quick, no reason why the Sabres can't next season but they need to add better players.

 

If you want to cheer for this team to win their last 23 games and move into 5th last, go right ahead. I'll love your passion for the Sabres and can't wait for you to actually have a team worth cheering for.

 

Me, I'll watch every game. Hope to see some good hockey by Samson and a couple of others that will be here long term. But I won't get upset if/when they lose. I can see the silver lining and I see it literally by watching almost all of the Barrie Colt games and Halifax/ Boston U games when they are available.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of people who think I'm not a real fan cause I hope they come in last place. The truth is, I like all Sabres fans want them to win the cup, I grew up idolizing Perreault, listening to the games on the radio. Cheering for the Sabres while living in th middle of leaf nation.

 

I remember them being heavily favored in 1980 vs the Islanders but losing in the semi finals. I remember losing to the Bruins in OT In 1983. Brad Park scores but I still think Andre Savard could have blocked the shot.

 

This is way too long a post but even after all these years I'm still optimistic that they Sabres will one day win a cup. Eichel is a great place to start, now let's add another good hockey player by finishing last

[Thorny]

You are right, picking constantly in the top 10 gets you no where. Picking in top 3/4 is where you need to be.

For those who want this team to win out and finish as high in standings, what's your actual game plan to make this team good?

Cause, I've seen enough to know this team isn't good enough. You can wait for them to learn to win or replace them with better players? I'll take the 2nd option. Every year we see teams turn around quick, no reason why the Sabres can't next season but they need to add better players.

If you want to cheer for this team to win their last 23 games and move into 5th last, go right ahead. I'll love your passion for the Sabres and can't wait for you to actually have a team worth cheering for.

Me, I'll watch every game. Hope to see some good hockey by Samson and a couple of others that will be here long term. But I won't get upset if/when they lose. I can see the silver lining and I see it literally by watching almost all of the Barrie Colt games and Halifax/ Boston U games when they are available.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who think I'm not a real fan cause I hope they come in last place. The truth is, I like all Sabres fans want them to win the cup, I grew up idolizing Perreault, listening to the games on the radio. Cheering for the Sabres while living in th middle of leaf nation.

I remember them being heavily favored in 1980 vs the Islanders but losing in the semi finals. I remember losing to the Bruins in OT In 1983. Brad Park scores but I still think Andre Savard could have blocked the shot.

This is way too long a post but even after all these years I'm still optimistic that they Sabres will one day win a cup. Eichel is a great place to start, now let's add another good hockey player by finishing last

The exact same plan you’d have, minus not caring about the potential swing of a few % points. There’s absolutely no guarantee that whoever is picked 4th has a better career than the guy getting picked 5. It’s a toss up.

 

If Botterill has the ability to select good players, we are fine wherever we pick, it’s going to be high. If he doesn’t have that ability, we are screwed either way.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Actually to win you need to build a deep and winning prospect pool and minor league system.  TM traded our depth away and we haven't developed enough players to build a deep winning team.  

 

The rebuild started officially with the 2013 draft.

So far from rebuild picks we have added Jack, Sam and Risto in the NHL

In Roch we have Baptiste, Bailey, Cornel, Malone and Guhle with only Guhle looking like an impact player.

 

That isn't how you build a winning organization.

 

What Jbot needs to do now is rebuild the pipeline.  That means getting near ready prospects in these deadline trades instead of draft picks.  We need more D depth, center depth for the 3rd and 4th lines and 2-4 LWs while we wait for guys like Mittelstadt, Asplund, Davidsson, Nylander and Olofsson to develop.  It would also be really helpful if we get Borgen under contract and Pu out develops his draft status and becomes at top 6 forward.

 

Personally I think Jbot window is 2 more seasons.  By then we need to be a sure fire playoff team comprised of primarily former Sabres prospects.  That mission starts now.  Continue to undue TM's mistakes.    

Edited February 19, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN

[Ducky]

Botterill will move players like Pouliot and Kane at the TD but I think most if his wheeling and dealing starts after the season is over. He and his inner circle have had a full year of evaluations of all players in the system and the league for that matter. He should know what he wants and what he doesn't by now. He will select his core players and try to build around them. I think he has a busy off season.

[PerreaultForever]

I think that's just about right. You have to give Botterill this first year as the bottom or low point (you can't hold him accountable for the past obviously) but after this season you have to see solid steady improvement every year or he is another failure as well. So playoffs next year would be great,  but playoffs plus a solid farm system in place in two years is reasonable - and expected. 

[Radar]

Botterill will move players like Pouliot and Kane at the TD but I think most if his wheeling and dealing starts after the season is over. He and his inner circle have had a full year of evaluations of all players in the system and the league for that matter. He should know what he wants and what he doesn't by now. He will select his core players and try to build around them. I think he has a busy off season.

I think any evaluations should have been completed by Thanksgiving or first part of December. The question is not who the core players are as much as how do we get better depth wise. That has to be drafting well and development. Unfortunately that usually takes time and good scouting and development coaching. Trades and free agency are not good plans in my opinion.