Sabre fan Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 I would LOVE to see OReilly traded then Kane signed but we seem to do everything ass-backwards so that'll never come to be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted December 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 How would removing the best player on the team for, most likely, picks and / or prospects improve the team the most? Well, I don't think he is the best player on the team. And, I think O'Reilly is better than him, although Kane has more value right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Well, I don't think he is the best player on the team. And, I think O'Reilly is better than him, although Kane has more value right now Kane is playing better right now, but O’Reilly has more value. He’s an all-situations centre in his prime tied up long-term. Drop him on to a team with a legit first-line Centre that needs help with face offs and special teams and you are golden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted December 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Kane is playing better right now, but O’Reilly has more value. He’s an all-situations centre in his prime tied up long-term. Drop him on to a team with a legit first-line Centre that needs help with face offs and special teams and you are golden. You really think someone is paying more for O'Reilly and his contract right now than they are for Kane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Well, I don't think he is the best player on the team. And, I think O'Reilly is better than him, although Kane has more value right now I don't think Kane has more value than O'Reilly, despite his recent struggles. Kane is a winger and a pending UFA where O'Reilly is a center and is locked up for 5 additional years with 4 of them having his actual cash paid $1.5 million less than his cap hit. Plus the 5 extra years only takes him to age 32 so they don't have to worry about paying him when he hits Moulson's age and needs a walker to help him skate. You really think someone is paying more for O'Reilly and his contract right now than they are for Kane? Big time. Kane is a pending UFA so immediately half the teams in the league have no use for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted December 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 I don't think Kane has more value than O'Reilly, despite his recent struggles. Kane is a winger and a pending UFA where O'Reilly is a center and is locked up for 5 additional years with 4 of them having his actual cash paid $1.5 million less than his cap hit. Plus the 5 extra years only takes him to age 32 so they don't have to worry about paying him when he hits Moulson's age and needs a walker to help him skate. Big time. Kane is a pending UFA so immediately half the teams in the league have no use for him. Even a Kane sign and trade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 O'Reilly is a massive disappointment this season. He looks completely out of shape, he's slow, lagging behind the play most nights. His first couple seasons here he was a determined puck hound, creating chance after chance off the forecheck.. now he looks gassed after 15 seconds, shoulder slumped over, head down trying to catch up to the play from behind like he has sandbags strapped to his legs. Amen, I say: Amen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Even a Kane sign and trade? I wouldn't pin my hopes to it. Sign and trades don't seem to happen in the NHL very often. The main interest in Kane is going to come from contending teams that think acquiring Kane will put them over the top in a Cup run and those teams probably don't have the cap space to sign him long term. If they acquire him and he meshes well they may try to move some other guys out to free up the cap space to keep him but by that point the trade is done and over with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 At what point does Housley take some heat for not motivating these players? They look like play like they just rolled out of bed after a bender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 What vaunted leaders did the Leafs hang onto to teach their kids the way? JVR? Kadri? Bozak? Leadership is overrated. Leadership can come from a coach, as well. Kane is playing better right now, but O’Reilly has more value. He’s an all-situations centre in his prime tied up long-term. Drop him on to a team with a legit first-line Centre that needs help with face offs and special teams and you are golden. Uh, isn't that the Sabres? :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) You really think someone is paying more for O'Reilly and his contract right now than they are for Kane? Definitely. I think a lot fans base trades on how well a player is doing right now. GMs are much more likely to give weight to history, role and fit. At what point does Housley take some heat for not motivating these players? They look like play like they just rolled out of bed after a bender.I think given the GM,s lack of allegiance to the current roster and the “motivation” those same players showed under Bylsma has given the current head coach a considerable cushion. Uh, isn't that the Sabres? :pThe Sabres do not have a legitimate first line Centre, as much as many fans thought they should be paying him as one. ???? (I should have said contending team) Edited December 20, 2017 by Mick O’Manly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 How in the world is Eichel not a legitimate first line centre? Even now he's 22nd overall in scoring for Centres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 How in the world is Eichel not a legitimate first line centre? Even now he's 22nd overall in scoring for Centres. I’m talking about the type of guy who dominates, not the 31 highest scoring pivots. He’s barely in the top 50 in scoring overall, has not shown defensive or leadership skills to compensate for his shortcomings in scoring and I can’t remember him lifting his team to victory this season. Does that sound like a first line Centre to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) I’m talking about the type of guy who dominates, not the 31 highest scoring pivots. He’s barely in the top 50 in scoring overall, has not shown defensive or leadership skills to compensate for his shortcomings in scoring and I can’t remember him lifting his team to victory this season. Does that sound like a first line Centre to you? It depends on which team you ask. He's not been good enough to elevate the tire fire that is this season's Sabres, but I bet you could switch him out with several top-line guys on other, successful teams and he'd fit right in when being supported by an actual team. His raw offensive projection is certainly top-line level. I think he's absolutely good enough to be a top line centre on a good team right now. Nico Hischier is the first line C on the 8th overall NJ Devils. Eichel can't step in and maintain status quo? Edited December 20, 2017 by Bjorn Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 I’m talking about the type of guy who dominates, not the 31 highest scoring pivots. He’s barely in the top 50 in scoring overall, has not shown defensive or leadership skills to compensate for his shortcomings in scoring and I can’t remember him lifting his team to victory this season. Does that sound like a first line Centre to you? He was 11th in the league in points/game as a 20 year old last season. On a slow team with a defense that couldn't get the puck out of their own end of the ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 It depends on which team you ask. He's not been good enough to elevate the tire fire that is this season's Sabres, but I bet you could switch him out with several top-line guys on other, successful teams and he'd fit right in when being supported by an actual team. His raw offensive projection is certainly top-line level. I think he's absolutely good enough to be a top line centre on a good team right now. Nico Hischier is the first line C on the 8th overall NJ Devils. Eichel can't step in and maintain status quo? You’re talking roster spots, I’m talking the concept of a first line centre, a league elite: Perreault, Lafontaine, Malkin, Tavares... He was 11th in the league in points/game as a 20 year old last season. On a slow team with a defense that couldn't get the puck out of their own end of the ice. Thorny has made a point about talking how players are doing this year. Jack is clearly a first-line centre when it comes to talent. When it comes to performance, different story. He’s been just another good scorer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 They did too try and acquire leadership, they just failed at it. It was one of the massive differences people believed our tank would work when Edmonton's failed. Turns out we also just drafted like Edmonton as well They didn't acquire leaders, they acquired veterans. Not nearly the same thing. And none of them, save Gionta, came from winning organizations. I'm going to go back to the environment that Sidney Crosby walked into as a rookie. He had Lemieux, LeClair, Gonchar, Malone, Palffy, Recchi and Odelein in the dressing room on his first day of training camp. All of them were past their prime, but they were leaders and they were guys that Crosby would have looked up to and in awe of right from the starting gate. Instead of putting players that command respect in place before Eichel and Samson showed up, we were too busy trading for injured wingers and moving goaltenders that showed a pulse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabresBillsFan Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 This Sabres team is a joke. And then all the talk about trading the one guy that, skates, hits and scores. If anything they need more players like Kane. Team is an absolute mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacque Richard Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 They didn't acquire leaders, they acquired veterans. Not nearly the same thing. And none of them, save Gionta, came from winning organizations. I'm going to go back to the environment that Sidney Crosby walked into as a rookie. He had Lemieux, LeClair, Gonchar, Malone, Palffy, Recchi and Odelein in the dressing room on his first day of training camp. All of them were past their prime, but they were leaders and they were guys that Crosby would have looked up to and in awe of right from the starting gate. Instead of putting players that command respect in place before Eichel and Samson showed up, we were too busy trading for injured wingers and moving goaltenders that showed a pulse. good points here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) You’re talking roster spots, I’m talking the concept of a first line centre, a league elite: Perreault, Lafontaine, Malkin, Tavares... Thorny has made a point about talking how players are doing this year. Jack is clearly a first-line centre when it comes to talent. When it comes to performance, different story. He’s been just another good scorer. That's more than fair. The verbiage I would use is Franchise Centre to describe what you are, but I think the distinction between our viewpoints is indeed purely verbal. He's not a franchise centre yet. They didn't acquire leaders, they acquired veterans. Not nearly the same thing. And none of them, save Gionta, came from winning organizations. I'm going to go back to the environment that Sidney Crosby walked into as a rookie. He had Lemieux, LeClair, Gonchar, Malone, Palffy, Recchi and Odelein in the dressing room on his first day of training camp. All of them were past their prime, but they were leaders and they were guys that Crosby would have looked up to and in awe of right from the starting gate. Instead of putting players that command respect in place before Eichel and Samson showed up, we were too busy trading for injured wingers and moving goaltenders that showed a pulse. Yup. And it's two-fold. It's not just the fact that Crosby was stepping into such a workable situation. There's also the fact that it was Sidney Crosby. Even if he DID step into a barren situation much the same as Eichel and immediately took charge, I wouldn't think that would be fair to ask that of anyone falling short of his considerable status. To think that the Franchise was asking of Eichel what wasn't even asked of Crosby, is crazy. Edited December 21, 2017 by Bjorn Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted December 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 They didn't acquire leaders, they acquired veterans. Not nearly the same thing. And none of them, save Gionta, came from winning organizations. I'm going to go back to the environment that Sidney Crosby walked into as a rookie. He had Lemieux, LeClair, Gonchar, Malone, Palffy, Recchi and Odelein in the dressing room on his first day of training camp. All of them were past their prime, but they were leaders and they were guys that Crosby would have looked up to and in awe of right from the starting gate. Instead of putting players that command respect in place before Eichel and Samson showed up, we were too busy trading for injured wingers and moving goaltenders that showed a pulse. But that wasn't your post. I'm not saying they didn't fail to acquire leaders, they definitely did. But they tried Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) But that wasn't your post. I'm not saying they didn't fail to acquire leaders, they definitely did. But they tried that was the point of my post. They made purposeful decisions to not get respected leaders on the roster. They picked up veterans who were good professionals but not good enough, leader enough, or commanded of respect enough to possibly jeopardize a tank. They were so consumed with setting the team up for failure that they neglected to have the people in place to set up success when the tank prizes arrived. Major flaw in the plan IMO. Edited December 21, 2017 by We've Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_Dudley Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 that was the point of my post. They made purposeful decisions to not get respected leaders on the roster. They picked up veterans who were good professionals but not good enough, leader enough, or commanded of respect enough to possibly jeopardize a tank. They were so consumed with setting the team up for failure that they neglected to have the people in place to set up success when the tank prizes arrived. Major flaw in the plan IMO. Good points. We have to also consider that what we were obviously doing how many available bona fide leaders were willing to sigh on for that ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted December 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) that was the point of my post. They made purposeful decisions to not get respected leaders on the roster. They picked up veterans who were good professionals but not good enough, leader enough, or commanded of respect enough to possibly jeopardize a tank. They were so consumed with setting the team up for failure that they neglected to have the people in place to set up success when the tank prizes arrived. Major flaw in the plan IMO. That's just not true though. Ott was an assistant captain and respected in Dallas, Gionta was a captain with Montreal and a Stanely Cup Winner, Gorges was an assistant captain with Montreal, Pominville was previously a Sabres captain and an assistant captain in Minnesota, Okposo was an assistant captain in New York. Those are just the ones I can think of too, I'm sure there's more. At every step of the tank, before during and after, they tried to bring in respected veteran leadership. Call the tank a lot of things, but there is no possible way you can say they didn't try and bring in leadership to mentor the kids. What they failed to do was draft well, draft depth, and have a farm system where those picks can mature, grow, and learn to win together. Edited December 21, 2017 by Jokertecken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) Ott was pre-tank. And traded before the kids were here. Pominville was Botteril’s hire so he’s the equivalent of closing the barn door after the horses got out. It really boils down to Gionta, Moulson, and Gorges. Not exactly a murderer’s row of leadership reputation. And Gio was shown the door because the kids didn’t like being told to do the right thing. That doesn’t take away from your last paragraph. Drafting and development has been negligent as well. Edited December 21, 2017 by We've Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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