Off Topic Political Correctness

[Claude_Verret]

An insightful blog post by Haidt on microagressions.

 

http://righteousmind.com/where-microaggressions-really-come-from/

 

Campbell and Manning describe how this culture of dignity is now giving way to a new culture of victimhood in which people are encouraged to respond to even the slightest unintentional offense, as in an honor culture. But they must not obtain redress on their own; they must appeal for help to powerful others or administrative bodies, to whom they must make the case that they have been victimized. It is the very presence of such administrative bodies, within a culture that is highly egalitarian and diverse (i.e., many college campuses) that gives rise to intense efforts to identify oneself as a fragile and aggrieved victim. This is why we have seen the recent explosion of concerns about microaggressions, combined with demands for trigger warnings and safe spaces, that Greg Lukianoff and I wrote about in The Coddling of the American Mind.

 

 

[That Aud Smell]

^

 

I think I saw a write-up by one of those writers somewhere recently - Atlantic, New Yorker, etc.

 

It is an absolutely incredible trend - almost unfathomable, really. But perhaps inevitable given what preceded it.

[Hoss]

If you want a good idea on how not to discuss political correctness (and want to see that racism in Buffalo is a problem) go look at the comment section of anything race related that WGRZ posts on Facebook.

[PASabreFan]

The second word depends on age. The first and third are clearly offensive.

So if she's not old, that phrase is the hat trick of offensiveness? (Also, I would imagine that the term hat trick itself is offensive to some, perhaps bald people and prostitutes.)

[Drunkard]

So if she's not old, that phrase is the hat trick of offensiveness? (Also, I would imagine that the term hat trick itself is offensive to some, perhaps bald people and prostitutes.)

 

As well as crappy hockey players like Andrew Peters who never had the talent to actually score a hat trick.

 

For the record I'm pretty damn liberal and I hate political correctness and the whole concept of micro-aggressions. It's one thing to actually discriminate against someone because they are different (age, race, religion, income, etc.). That's wrong and it should be stopped. It's a completely different story when coddled people think they are special little snowflakes that have some sort of naturally born right to never be offended. My 1st amendment right to free speech trumps your tender sensibilities and hurt feelings. Of course there's a bit of a martyr complex on the right with this as well. People aren't going to jail for saying offensive stuff so I never understood the whole "what happened to free speech" strawman argument for the most part. If some knucklehead wants to say racist, sexist, or offensive things nobody is stopping them, arresting them, and hauling them before a judge. However their employer is well within their rights to fire said knucklehead in order to avoid PR problems and public backlash that comes with having a well known knucklehead in their employ. That's their right as a business.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Drunkard

[Eleven]

The safe space thing goes too far because it teaches people that it's ok to feel like a victim about EVERYTHING--and that it's the speaker's fault if they feel like  victim.  If I hear the phrase "cancer in the dressing room," and it affects me, that's on me to deal with my own situation.  It's not on the entire world to avoid a phrase we've been using for decades just because I lost someone important to cancer.

 

If a group of people tells me that they would prefer I not use the word "retard," "hermaphrodite," or whatever, because it's hurtful to the entire group, I think it's wise if I adapt and move on.

 

I don't have to do so, to be sure, but I do run the risk of being adjudged an if I don't.

[DirtDart]

Why is 'hermaphrodite' considered offensive? Where do we draw the line? Is it considered ignorant if somebody can't keep up with the new label of the day?

 

This seems like it could be a decent discussion, if kept civil. I don't feel comfortable derailing the Olympics thread. Mods, feel free to move those posts over to here if you like.

This PC world makes me nauseous. That statement alone hurt my feelings, I am so confused

[DirtDart]

According to the American Psychological Association:

 

""Intersex" was originally a medical term that was later embraced by some intersex persons. Many experts and persons with intersex conditions have recently recommended adopting the term "disorders of sex development" (DSD). They feel that this term is more accurate and less stigmatizing than the term intersex."

 

For those ignorant of the metamorphoses of the word 'hermaphrodite' to the word 'intersex', you can take solace in knowing your ignorance is likely to be short lived.

 

DSD emerges, until, of course, someone's offended by 'disorder', which will surely follow.

I thought intersex took part while sitting at a computer. This is really getting confusing.

The safe space thing goes too far because it teaches people that it's ok to feel like a victim about EVERYTHING--and that it's the speaker's fault if they feel like victim. If I hear the phrase "cancer in the dressing room," and it affects me, that's on me to deal with my own situation. It's not on the entire world to avoid a phrase we've been using for decades just because I lost someone important to cancer.

 

If a group of people tells me that they would prefer I not use the word "retard," "hermaphrodite," or whatever, because it's hurtful to the entire group, I think it's wise if I adapt and move on.

 

I don't have to do so, to be sure, but I do run the risk of being adjudged an ###### if I don't.

That is probably one of the more well thought out posts on this subject. Very nice.

[Eleven]

According to the American Psychological Association:

 

""Intersex" was originally a medical term that was later embraced by some intersex persons. Many experts and persons with intersex conditions have recently recommended adopting the term "disorders of sex development" (DSD). They feel that this term is more accurate and less stigmatizing than the term intersex."

 

For those ignorant of the metamorphoses of the word 'hermaphrodite' to the word 'intersex', you can take solace in knowing your ignorance is likely to be short lived.

 

DSD emerges, until, of course, someone's offended by 'disorder', which will surely follow.

 

That will happen after people start using it pejoratively, not before.  Cf. "colored."

[That Aud Smell]

At a gathering this summer, a group of assembled adults were on the listening end of a lecture of sorts from a 17 year-old about how the failure or refusal to abandon cis-normative pronouns was offensive, problematic, and so on.

 

You may not know what cis-normative is. I certainly did not. It's a companion term to "trans," essentially. Whereas trans people go across their biological sex (making them trans-gendered), cis people stay on the same side of their biological sex. A little Googling revealed that cis means precisely that in Latin -- on the same side of.

 

Now, the lecture was coming from a good kid. A nice kid. A thoughtful kid. The kid is 17 years old and quite intelligent -- so that brings its own perils and pitfalls (you may remember how you too knew everything at that age).

 

I was just -- I didn't know what to say. The group to which the kid was preaching was comprised of three middle of the road types and four far-left liberals. None of us knew what to make of what was being said. And I still don't.

 

When I finally did pipe up, I asked how we would be referring to people with pronouns in the future. I was assured that the days of using "him" and "her" would soon be coming to an end because it is offensive to the trans community for society to use cis-normative pronouns as the default method of talking about gender. The contemplated "solution": Every person will be a "they." I suggested that "it" would be more grammatically correct for an individual person (being singular in form), but it appeared that the kid was struggling with whether or not I was making a joke. Frankly, I'm not sure whether or not I was.

 

Strange days, indeed. Most peculiar, Mama.

[JJFIVEOH]

The safe space thing goes too far because it teaches people that it's ok to feel like a victim about EVERYTHING--and that it's the speaker's fault if they feel like  victim.  If I hear the phrase "cancer in the dressing room," and it affects me, that's on me to deal with my own situation.  It's not on the entire world to avoid a phrase we've been using for decades just because I lost someone important to cancer.

 

If a group of people tells me that they would prefer I not use the word "retard," "hermaphrodite," or whatever, because it's hurtful to the entire group, I think it's wise if I adapt and move on.

 

I don't have to do so, to be sure, but I do run the risk of being adjudged an ###### if I don't.

 

Since when has that been an issue?  :D

 

I kid, I kid............. Don't take offense........ ;)

An insightful blog post by Haidt on microagressions.

 

http://righteousmind.com/where-microaggressions-really-come-from/

 

Thanks, I'll be sure to read this later. 

Edited August 22, 2016 by JJFIVEOH

[Neo]

That will happen after people start using it pejoratively, not before. Cf. "colored."

"Disability" didn't wait to be a pejorative before it became offensive. I think that's the rub. The insults are real, from time to time, but they're also imagined from time to time.

 

I didn't know the terms intersex or DSD until yesterday. Intersex was presented here as the alternative to the offensive hermaphrodite. Now, the Intersex Society of North America ("ISNA") website* is urging us to DSD. Who knew today's "intersex" would be offensive like yesterday's "hermaphrodite". I've found websites encouraging the replacement of DSD with the less offensive Gender Dysphoria. I kid you not. Yesterday's revelation (intersex) is now two iterations dated. Intersex didn't wait to be a perjorative. Offense arose organically.

 

JJ said he can't keep up. Hoss suggested this may be some combination of traits unique to JJ. If the uber-informed Hoss can't keep up, then neither can I. I admire JJ's candor, believe he wasn't deliberately offensive, and suggest the solution lies in the offended, not the offenders.

 

 

*. Transparency: Over the past year, we ("ISNA") have begun to use the term “disorders of sex development,” or DSD, in place of “intersex” in these contexts. It’s not our intention to make intersex an entirely medical issue. But we are addressing people working in a medical context. We have found that the word DSD is much less charged than “intersex,” and that it makes our message of patient-centered care much more accessible to parents and doctors. Our aim is to meet them where they are.

Edited August 22, 2016 by N'eo

[That Aud Smell]

the solution lies in the offended, not the offenders.

 

as is usually the case, there's work to be done on both sides of the ledger.

[Neo]

When I finally did pipe up, I asked how we would be referring to people with pronouns in the future. I was assured that the days of using "him" and "her" would soon be coming to an end because it is offensive to the trans community for society to use cis-normative pronouns as the default method of talking about gender. The contemplated "solution": Every person will be a "they." I suggested that "it" would be more grammatically correct for an individual person (being singular in form), but it appeared that the kid was struggling with whether or not I was making a joke. Frankly, I'm not sure whether or not I was.

Ayn Rand wrote a novel about it a few years back. Edited August 23, 2016 by N'eo

[Hoss]

Attempted to remedy this in private, but N'eo has been misrepresenting what the ISNA (who I had never heard of until he mentioned them) is doing with terminology.

 

They are NOT attempting to replace intersex with DSD. They are two separate terms. The group is attempting to be more specific as "intersexuality" is more a blanket term but DSD explains the cause better.

 

In their own words:

 

Intersex itself is not a disorder, rather a variation. But Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, for instance, is an inherited disorder affecting adrenal function. Many women with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome have become comfortable with the term AIS, which is based on “syndrome.” But “syndrome” is a pattern of symptoms indicative of some disease or disorder. “Disorder” refers to the underlying cause, not intersexuality itself, and certainly not to the whole person.

 

 

Now N'eo used this to present an argument and take a relatively weak (especially for a man with such a way with words and much knowledge) jab at me. Weak sauce.

 

Here's a link to the page where they explain why they use DSD, what intersex is and so on if you'd like to learn more:

 

http://www.isna.org/node/1066

[Neo]

See my post, above. Edited and Cited! It's the best I can do.

 

I believe, Hoss, you're speaking to the disorder. I'm speaking to what ISNA identifies as the continuing evolution of terms, which was the very initial debate and the only topic of my posts.

 

Aren't you confirming the word evolution so frustrating to JJ?

 

 

 

"Over the past year, we ("ISNA") have begun to use the term “disorders of sex development,” or DSD, in place of “intersex” in these contexts. It’s not our intention to make intersex an entirely medical issue. But we are addressing people working in a medical context. We have found that the word DSD is much less charged than “intersex,” and that it makes our message of patient-centered care much more accessible to parents and doctors. Our aim is to meet them where they are. "

Edited August 22, 2016 by N'eo

[Hoss]

No, because intersex isn't suddenly not acceptable and isn't deemed offensive. There's no need for adjustment. Especially considering I don't have patients or need to deal with the disorders intersexual individuals are dealing with. ISNA does and explains that as the reasoning for adding DSD.

 

Also, as noted previously, intersex is not the "term du jour." The Intersex Soceity of North America was founded in 1993 (over 20 years ago). They themselves say they started using DSD in the last year. Now I would think there's a difference in the wider usage of one term vs the other given the significant time difference.

 

You would certainly be able to find examples of terms that even the most politically correct are using improperly or have been replaced but this isn't one of them.

 

If they were making a larger argument that intersex is offensive or unusable then why would they still have it in the title of their organization? That seems pretty simple.

 

I'm not frustrated in any way their adding of a term. If they were making an argument that DSD must replace an offensive term in intersex then I would try to find out if it's just one group's thought or the thoughts of the community as a whole. If the community agreed and insisted then I would have no problem adjusting.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Hoss

[That Aud Smell]

Any Rand wrote a novel about it a few years back.

 

As you may have inferred, I haven't read any of her work.

 

Also: A few years back? 

Oh, and one more thing: I think maybe Hoss, et al. need a separate OT The Politics of Trans Terminology thread. All this granular talk of intersex, etc. is threatening to derail the Political Correctness thread. Which I find highly offensive.  :P

[Neo]

as is usually the case, there's work to be done on both sides of the ledger.

Missed this while debating chromosomes and the distinction between the word offensive and the phrase less-charged.

 

True, indeed.

Edited August 22, 2016 by N'eo

[Hoss]

As you may have inferred, I haven't read any of her work.

 

Also: A few years back?

 

Oh, and one more thing: I think maybe Hoss, et al. need a separate OT The Politics of Trans Terminology thread. All this granular talk of intersex, etc. is threatening to derail the Political Correctness thread. Which I find highly offensive. :P

The entire point of this thread is language.

[Neo]

Attempted to remedy this in private, but N'eo has been misrepresenting what the ISNA (who I had never heard of until he mentioned them) is doing with terminology.

http://www.isna.org/node/1066

I will close my DSD conversation with this.

 

Tonight, I will tell my family that I have been accused of misrepresenting the Intersex Society of North America.

Edited August 22, 2016 by N'eo

[That Aud Smell]

The entire point of this thread is language.

 

Um, yeah. But, like, language in general.

 

You guys and all your chatter about intersex lexicology are threatening to overwhelm this thread with a single, specific issue.

 

NOT COOL, man. Not. Cool.

 

I will close my DSD conversation with this.

 

Tonight, I will tell my family that I have been accused of misrepresenting the Interex Society of North America.

 

That made me chuckle a real chuckle.

[Claude_Verret]

At a gathering this summer, a group of assembled adults were on the listening end of a lecture of sorts from a 17 year-old about how the failure or refusal to abandon cis-normative pronouns was offensive, problematic, and so on.

 

You may not know what cis-normative is. I certainly did not. It's a companion term to "trans," essentially. Whereas trans people go across their biological sex (making them trans-gendered), cis people stay on the same side of their biological sex. A little Googling revealed that cis means precisely that in Latin -- on the same side of.

 

Now, the lecture was coming from a good kid. A nice kid. A thoughtful kid. The kid is 17 years old and quite intelligent -- so that brings its own perils and pitfalls (you may remember how you too knew everything at that age).

 

I was just -- I didn't know what to say. The group to which the kid was preaching was comprised of three middle of the road types and four far-left liberals. None of us knew what to make of what was being said. And I still don't.

 

When I finally did pipe up, I asked how we would be referring to people with pronouns in the future. I was assured that the days of using "him" and "her" would soon be coming to an end because it is offensive to the trans community for society to use cis-normative pronouns as the default method of talking about gender. The contemplated "solution": Every person will be a "they." I suggested that "it" would be more grammatically correct for an individual person (being singular in form), but it appeared that the kid was struggling with whether or not I was making a joke. Frankly, I'm not sure whether or not I was.

 

Strange days, indeed. Most peculiar, Mama.

 

The insanity is all around us...

 

http://abc11.com/politics/charlotte-schools-dont-refer-to-kids-as-boys-girls/1460043/

 

A Charlotte Mecklenburg Schools presentation to principals and counselors recommends children are not to be referred to as boys and girls, but instead as scholars and students.

 

[PASabreFan]

Boys as scholars. Girls as students. That sounds about right.

[Claude_Verret]

OMG one school did one thing and society is in shambles! What're we to do? Back in my day there were boys and girls and now just students?

 

Excellent strawman dude.