Off Topic Political Correctness

[That Aud Smell]

What purpose would that serve?

 

The avoidance of needless offence.

 

You down?

[K-9]

The avoidance of needless offence.

 

You down?

So xxxxxx is less offensive than xxxxxx? I appreciate the clarification.

 

Somewhere Lenny Bruce weeps.

[WildCard]

Can we make the opposite to this thread?

[K-9]

Can we make the opposite to this thread?

Impolitic wrongness?

[That Aud Smell]

So xxxxxx is less offensive than xxxxxx? I appreciate the clarification.

 

Somewhere Lenny Bruce weeps.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're on about, tbh.

 

A regular poster here said he was genuinely offended by a mod's use of an ethnic slur (although I think he missed the point of its usage). In turn, I suggested that the term in question be treated with the same sensitivity as "the n-word," essentially. 

 

And such suggestions are inevitably met with a few cries of "oh, look out, here come the PC police." 

 

Would the world be a better place if it were decreed that everyone could go back to using racial and ethnic slurs as they deem fit?

 

I tend to doubt it.

[K-9]

I'm not exactly sure what you're on about, tbh.

 

A regular poster here said he was genuinely offended by a mod's use of an ethnic slur (although I think he missed the point of its usage). In turn, I suggested that the term in question be treated with the same sensitivity as "the n-word," essentially. 

 

And such suggestions are inevitably met with a few cries of "oh, look out, here come the PC police." 

 

Would the world be a better place if it were decreed that everyone could go back to using racial and ethnic slurs as they deem fit?

 

I tend to doubt it.

Yeah, I guess I was a bit vague. I'll try to clarify.

 

Like Lenny Bruce, I don't believe that hiding words or censoring words does anything to lesson their intent. Indeed, I believe all words should be freely expressed for all to see, all the time. After a while I think they lose their ability to hurt as they grow stale.

 

But they ALWAYS reveal the bigot for who he is and for all to see with nothing to hide behind. We can't protect ourselves from words, anyway. Only the people that choose to use them. I prefer to see him coming.

 

And I'm utterly opposed to not teaching Mark Twain and others because their works contain "offensive" words. That truly does a disservice to our collective intelligence and truly prevents teaching opportunities and life lessons. And I think it is dangerous. Where does the list of banned works begin and end when it comes to the "offense" they inflict? Who determines that? It may sound melodramatic, but banning books and other literature is a time honored tactic in gaining traction to impose control over a populace.

 

In short, I don't see any upside to censorship. I see lots of negatives.

[Marvelo]

Marvelo -- I can't speak for Chz, but I will say that sometimes I too fail to respond to PMs or am late in doing so, and there is no malice intended.

 

As for the story in question, I agree that the word is a slur and is offensive.  However, as others have noted, I think the point of telling the story was to illustrate the bigotry of the person who used it -- not to endorse its usage.

 

Your first point is well taken...

 

But as for the story in question, here's my point. This thread has introduced a new ethnic slur to many people, (including Chz) who may not have known it previously. If we keep using these type of words in public, on the web etc. we not only keep it alive to hurt groups of people, but we're passing it on to a new generation of people who will keep reviving the use for their own purposes. 

 

When you stop using a word, it dies out. There are English words like japes, bodikin, furbelow and many others that fell out of use  hundreds of years ago simply because people stopped using them. People need to stop using words like the one Chz used (even inadvertently) and other ethnic, religious and gender slurs need to die.   

[WildCard]

To me Marvelo, that sounds a lot like ignorance promotes tolerance.

[K-9]

If only erasing bigotry was as easy as erasing words. When hearts and minds evolve like etymology, we may have the problem licked.

[That Aud Smell]

Yeah, I guess I was a bit vague. I'll try to clarify.

 

Like Lenny Bruce, I don't believe that hiding words or censoring words does anything to lesson their intent. Indeed, I believe all words should be freely expressed for all to see, all the time. After a while I think they lose their ability to hurt as they grow stale.

 

But they ALWAYS reveal the bigot for who he is and for all to see with nothing to hide behind. We can't protect ourselves from words, anyway. Only the people that choose to use them. I prefer to see him coming.

 

And I'm utterly opposed to not teaching Mark Twain and others because their works contain "offensive" words. That truly does a disservice to our collective intelligence and truly prevents teaching opportunities and life lessons. And I think it is dangerous. Where does the list of banned works begin and end when it comes to the "offense" they inflict? Who determines that? It may sound melodramatic, but banning books and other literature is a time honored tactic in gaining traction to impose control over a populace.

 

In short, I don't see any upside to censorship. I see lots of negatives.

 

Good stuff. Thank you. I need to think on that some. 

 

Re the bold, let's enjoy Louis CK on that precise subject (NSFW, btw):

 

 

(btw, his use of "*ot" and "c*nt" there (ha!) are part of a larger long-form joke from which this bit is taken.)

[PASabreFan]

The avoidance of needless offence.

 

You down?

The obvious evidence that your scheme doesn't work is above. chz never wrote the word in question. She wrote "k" space "i" space" etc.

 

Bald*y offends me as much as baldy.

 

This is truly silly.

I'm not exactly sure what you're on about, tbh.

 

A regular poster here said he was genuinely offended by a mod's use of an ethnic slur (although I think he missed the point of its usage). In turn, I suggested that the term in question be treated with the same sensitivity as "the n-word," essentially. 

 

And such suggestions are inevitably met with a few cries of "oh, look out, here come the PC police." 

 

Would the world be a better place if it were decreed that everyone could go back to using racial and ethnic slurs as they deem fit?

 

I tend to doubt it.

chz didn't "use" the word. She cited it. All it was missing were quote marks.

Your first point is well taken...

 

But as for the story in question, here's my point. This thread has introduced a new ethnic slur to many people, (including Chz) who may not have known it previously. If we keep using these type of words in public, on the web etc. we not only keep it alive to hurt groups of people, but we're passing it on to a new generation of people who will keep reviving the use for their own purposes. 

 

When you stop using a word, it dies out. There are English words like japes, bodikin, furbelow and many others that fell out of use  hundreds of years ago simply because people stopped using them. People need to stop using words like the one Chz used (even inadvertently) and other ethnic, religious and gender slurs need to die.   

What needs to be wiped out is the underlying bias. No one's going to start using an ethnic slur they just learned for the hell of it. Smell is not going to be the cause of people all across SabreSpace calling Brazil nuts by its racially offensive slur.

[K-9]

What needs to be wiped out is the underlying bias. No one's going to start using an ethnic slur they just learned for the hell of it. Smell is not going to be the cause of people all across SabreSpace calling Brazil nuts by its racially offensive slur.

That's what I was trying to get at. Much like nature abhors a vacuum, bigotry and hatred abhor the lack of words used to express it. Different new words just end up taking the place of the previous old words. 

[PASabreFan]

That's what I was trying to get at. Much like nature abhors a vacuum, bigotry and hatred abhor the lack of words used to express it. Different new words just end up taking the place of the previous old words. 

Shut up, you slabdragger.

[K-9]

Shut up, you slabdragger.

Enough of your japes, knave. I've grown tired of your skullduggery. 

[JJFIVEOH]

I do think Marvelo misses the point of the post.

 

And I also think that if that word is as offensive as it apparently is, then maybe it should be typed here with profanity placeholders -- k*ke, and such.

 

Half the point I created the thread was to allow openness in using racial slurs. It's about context. I don't think people are going to come into this thread and direct a racial slur at somebody. Context................ There's a difference between calling somebody a k*i*k*e, and using the term in a story. 

[dudacek]

This conversation is entirely in keeping with the point of the thread and perhaps gets to its crux.

CHZ used the word in a story in perhaps the most inoffensive context it could be used in order to illustrate ignorance in both forms (lack of knowledge and  lack of compassion).

Marvelo was still offended because the existence of the word offends him and he believes its use perpetuates its existence.

I don't see any way to accommodate both points of view.

Edited September 22, 2016 by dudacek

[Marvelo]

Half the point I created the thread was to allow openness in using racial slurs. It's about context. I don't think people are going to come into this thread and direct a racial slur at somebody. Context................ There's a difference between calling somebody a k*i*k*e, and using the term in a story. 

 

 

 

 

 

It's pretty simple. Treat people the way you like to be treated. Do not treat others badly. That you or anyone else in this thread is even using the particular word I referenced is VERY offensive to me and to most normal Jewish people. Ask a black person what he thinks of the N word. People get brave with the anonymous way they can communicate on the internet...If you knew what it's like to be a minority that has been harrassed and killed over  a long period of time, maybe you might understand.  But you don't seem care and you're bringing down the respect between people here. 

Edited September 22, 2016 by Marvelo

[JJFIVEOH]

 

It's pretty simple. Treat people the way you like to be treated. Do not treat others badly. That you or anyone else in this thread is even using the particular word I referenced is VERY offensive to me and to most normal Jewish people. Ask a black person what he thinks of the N word. People get brave with the anonymous way they can communicate on the internet...If you knew what it's like to be a minority that has been harrassed and killed over  a long period of time, maybe you might understand.  But you don't seem care and you're bringing down the respect between people here. 

 

 

Where have I come out and purposely hurt somebody?

[Marvelo]

Where have I come out and purposely hurt somebody?

 

This isn't about you personally. It's about your idea of the validity of casually using hateful expressions to put down other groups of people. This particular word that I and most other Jewish people find so offensive has hurt us for so many generations. I don't have to cite examples of other expressions or nicknames that put down other different groups. 

 

 

These aren't just words. These words are shorthand for ideas. Destructive ideas. These ideas are charged and have dimensions and histories of their own. By casually repeating this and other similar words to suit your everyday purposes, you and others are also giving life to very dangerous ideas that are very destructive to people.

[PASabreFan]

This isn't about you personally. It's about your idea of the validity of casually using hateful expressions to put down other groups of people. This particular word that I and most other Jewish people find so offensive has hurt us for so many generations. I don't have to cite examples of other expressions or nicknames that put down other different groups. 

 

 

These aren't just words. These words are shorthand for ideas. Destructive ideas. These ideas are charged and have dimensions and histories of their own. By casually repeating this and other similar words to suit your everyday purposes, you and others are also giving life to very dangerous ideas that are very destructive to people.

Let's forget hateful language for a second, even if it's just the reporting of hateful language. What about acts of hate? Is the history of the Holocaust and Nazism not taught to Jewish kids, even moreso than every kid? Should that history also be scrubbed? Does the teaching also not threaten to give life to dangerous ideas?

[Eleven]

I've posted this before.  It's worth your $12.  If I could buy it in a mostly-black bookstore in a mostly-black city (which I did), you can Amazon it.

 

https://www.amazon.com/-Strange-Career-Troublesome-Word/dp/0375713719/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474590152&sr=8-1&keywords=+kennedy

 

The title of the book is not appropriate for work.

 

The subject of the book is appropriate for humanity and for this discussion.

[Marvelo]

Let's forget hateful language for a second, even if it's just the reporting of hateful language. What about acts of hate? Is the history of the Holocaust and Nazism not taught to Jewish kids, even moreso than every kid? Should that history also be scrubbed? Does the teaching also not threaten to give life to dangerous ideas?

 

We are talking about individual words that are used as slurs in this thread. They have no other point except being shorthand to insult or to harm another group. Racial slurs are words that don't teach. It's not same as decades or centuries of history. History has a way of teaching. Hopefully you have qualified and responsible people teaching these classes although I wouldn't take that for granted these days. 

[nfreeman]

Marvelo -- you raise an interesting point.  I don't think your concerns constitute silly PC policing or shouting people down, which is what often bothers people about PC-ness.

 

It's also worth asking how everyone would feel if someone had told a story like the one Chz told, but with the N-word instead of the K-word.

 

Having said that, I think Marvelo should be careful about accusing others of malicious intent.

[That Aud Smell]

Freeman with some A game modding. Respect..

[PASabreFan]

Freeman with some A game modding. Respect..

Yeah, except he's forgetting your post about your grandmother's nut name.