Around the NHL: 2015-2016

[Thorny]

Kopitar being underrated does not mean Toews is overrated

 

But you've still ignored everything else I've posted on the matter. 

 

Anyways, let's just say that IMO Toews is not a top 5 player, never mind "best player in the game" that he is so often ranked as. In that way, I think he is often rated too high. It says a lot that Crosby is having what is termed a "terrible" year by his standards, yet he still has more points than Toews, whereas Toews has regressed this year and one hears barely a peep about his season being a down one. 

[WildCard]

Because Toews is overrated? And yes, I believe you can be a top 10 player in the league and still be overrated. Toews is paid like the best player in the league, and he's not. He's a great player, not the best. Or maybe Kopitar is just underrated. That seems likely. I agree Kopitar is every bit the player Toews is, and it's not an opinion that would be met with much agreement, I would wager.

 

Not saying that Toews isn't worth what he is getting paid, that is what the market dictated he was worth at the time of his signing. But I could see Kopitar being unable to get the same amount as Toews in a deal, due to being perceived as worth less.

These two things don't go together, because that's exactly what you're saying. If this pisses you off, wait and see what Stamkos gets. 

 

I don't know why Kopitar got $500k less. Maybe because he's older? He has 1 less Cup? They've missed the playoffs unlike the Hawks? He doesn't have a Selke? He doesn't have a Conn Smythe? I've already stated that their stats are remarkably similar, even their playoff ppg are something like .02 in difference. Kopitar is underrated, I get that

 

That's the thing, it's not that uncharacteristically bad. Toews scoring totals have been trending downwards since the lockout shortened year, but his 82 game pace this year of 58 points, while lower than his other seasons, is not that drastically different from his usual past seasons of high 60s. He's a high 60 point scorer, with a great defensive game and really good leadership. He's a great player. Top 10 in the league I think. But I think he is overrated because he is (or was) widely considered a top 1-2 player.

Kopitar is statistically similar is nearly every way, do you ever hear him being called the top player in the NHL? Even top 10? I don't know if it's a European bias or something else, but Kopitar defnitely doesn't get anywhere near the recognition Toews does.

And it's not like Kopitar's under appreciation relative to Toews started after Toews got his additional Cup. The narrative was the same when they both had 2.

Other players who's totals have trended downwards: Perry, Getzlaf, Crosby, Kopitar, Crosby...seeing the trend here? Now, are those players who all get around 68 points every year? No. But, their dip isn't in 2 points, like Toews' is. Convenient that he has a 'decline' from 68 points to 66 points.

 

Here are Toews' point totals during his career: 54, 69, 68, 76, 57, 48 (lockout), 68, and 66. That is remarkably consistent, much, much more so than any of the players mentioned above. During that period Toews not only wins 3 Cups, a Conn Smythe (2nd youngest player to ever do so at 22 years old), and a Selke, but his possession numbers are consistent as well and his defensive game blows every player out of the water that you might put in the top 10, besides Kopitar and Bergeron.

 

So no, I don't think Toews is overrated. I think Crosby might be, Getzlaf might be seriously wearing down, and Kopitar is underrated, but Toews is remarkably consistent year in and year out, and is paid as he deserves. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by WildCard

[Brawndo]

#Senators have traded D Patrick Mullen to the #Predators for D Connor Allen

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Wildguy,

 

How come that Ruskie in Pittsburgh isn't on your list?

 

To me he is still in the top 5, maybe even best player in the league.

[WildCard]

Wildguy,

 

How come that Ruskie in Pittsburgh isn't on your list?

 

To me he is still in the top 5, maybe even best player in the league.

Malkin? I definitely wouldn't put him in thte top 5, but maybe the top 10. To me Malkin can be the best player in the world, when he's motivated and healthy. His possession metrics are similar to Crosby's, but whereas Crosby has missed large chunks of time to major concussions, Malkin misses time every year for minor injuries and is more consistently out than Crosby is. Malkin also receives a ton of offensive zone starts compared to Crosby, and faces lesser competition, as evidence by their CF% and FF% relative. 

[Thorny]

These two things don't go together, because that's exactly what you're saying. If this pisses you off, wait and see what Stamkos gets. 

 

I don't know why Kopitar got $500k less. Maybe because he's older? He has 1 less Cup? They've missed the playoffs unlike the Hawks? He doesn't have a Selke? He doesn't have a Conn Smythe? I've already stated that their stats are remarkably similar, even their playoff ppg are something like .02 in difference. Kopitar is underrated, I get that

 

Other players who's totals have trended downwards: Perry, Getzlaf, Crosby, Kopitar, Crosby...seeing the trend here? Now, are those players who all get around 68 points every year? No. But, their dip isn't in 2 points, like Toews' is. Convenient that he has a 'decline' from 68 points to 66 points.

 

Here are Toews' point totals during his career: 54, 69, 68, 76, 57, 48 (lockout), 68, and 66. That is remarkably consistent, much, much more so than any of the players mentioned above. During that period Toews not only wins 3 Cups, a Conn Smythe (2nd youngest player to ever do so at 22 years old), and a Selke, but his possession numbers are consistent as well and his defensive game blows every player out of the water that you might put in the top 10, besides Kopitar and Bergeron.

 

So no, I don't think Toews is overrated. I think Crosby might be, Getzlaf might be seriously wearing down, and Kopitar is underrated, but Toews is remarkably consistent year in and year out, and is paid as he deserves. 

 

They do go together, what I meant is that he probably makes too much relative to other players that I think should make more, but as is often the case, how much money you are getting paid in the NHL depends on when you signed your contract. They are continually going up, and for example, Sid signed well before Toews did. I understand and accept that what he is making is relative to what the market dictated at the time. Not all things are equal when it comes to contract amounts. 

 

And I never said I was pissed off  :P

 

Toews is headed for a larger dip this year than 2 points. And like you said, he wasn't at the same heights as the others were points wise, initially.

 

I don't think Crosby is overrated at all, for the record. I think we are not that far apart in terms of evaluation of Toews, we both think he is a great player. I merely place him a bit lower on the player totem pole than you do, and there probably isn't enough of gap for it to be haggled over. If you don't think he is the best player in the game, we aren't that far apart.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Thorny

[WildCard]

I like discussing this, especially with you, Thorny. It's a thread I'd be interested in: Top 10 NHL players

 

I think Toews is set for a 4-5 poor dip as it stand right now, easily within his range of what he usually gets, especially when you note he lost his primary winger in Sharp

[Iron Crotch]

Huh. Duh. Hodgson clears waivers.

 

Fixed it for ya.

 

19 year old Kevin Fiala got called up from Milwaukee to take CoHo's place in the Preds lineup. Fiala immediately was put on the 1st line along with James Neal and Ryan Johansen. Fiala is small, but he has a ton of skill. I'm looking forward to seeing him play. And, I'm looking forward to NOT seeing Hodgson play.

 

Edit: Fiala scored on his first shift. Sending CoHo down has already paid dividends!

Edited January 15, 2016 by Potato

[beerme1]

LOL at Blues goalie Elliot smashing every other Blues players sticks on his way to the locker room after being pulled. F it. If you won't score for me and it makes me look bad I'll break all you're f'n sticks!

 

https://youtu.be/3zouwI3Toj4

I think at the Eleven second mark, Hitch angrily says pull this f'n a hole. That's real angry eleven right there.

[Thorny]

I like discussing this, especially with you, Thorny. It's a thread I'd be interested in: Top 10 NHL players

 

I think Toews is set for a 4-5 poor dip as it stand right now, easily within his range of what he usually gets, especially when you note he lost his primary winger in Sharp

 

Mutual.

 

We had that thread earlier where we did a player draft, but it was a little muddled. I wonder if a consensus top 10 players list could even be made here? It would be fun to try though. It would be a difficult year to do it, as it seems like there are a lot of players uncharacteristically slumping.

 

Does anyone disagree with Patrick Kane being, currently, the best player in the NHL?

[TrueBlueGED]

Mutual.

 

We had that thread earlier where we did a player draft, but it was a little muddled. I wonder if a consensus top 10 players list could even be made here? It would be fun to try though. It would be a difficult year to do it, as it seems like there are a lot of players uncharacteristically slumping.

 

Does anyone disagree with Patrick Kane being, currently, the best player in the NHL?

I guess it's time to start a best player thread, because I'd vote Erik Karlsson. Kane would "only" come in the 2-4 range for me. Others I'd put in that class are Seguin and Price.

[WildCard]

Mutual.

 

We had that thread earlier where we did a player draft, but it was a little muddled. I wonder if a consensus top 10 players list could even be made here? It would be fun to try though. It would be a difficult year to do it, as it seems like there are a lot of players uncharacteristically slumping.

 

Does anyone disagree with Patrick Kane being, currently, the best player in the NHL?

I picked him 1st overall, and got a some shite for it IIRC  :beer:

 

I guess it's time to start a best player thread, because I'd vote Erik Karlsson. Kane would "only" come in the 2-4 range for me. Others I'd put in that class are Seguin and Price.

Rea-he-HE-he-HE-he-eaallllyyyy now? (Jim Carry's voice)

[Thorny]

I picked him 1st overall, and got a some shite for it IIRC  :beer:

 

Rea-he-HE-he-HE-he-eaallllyyyy now? (Jim Carry's voice)

 

You did, and I didn't think it was the right pick. Looks like I was wrong, or at least, I suspect he would garner a lot more 1st place votes now.

[Randall Flagg]

I guess it's time to start a best player thread, because I'd vote Erik Karlsson. Kane would "only" come in the 2-4 range for me. Others I'd put in that class are Seguin and Price.

If Erik could play defense a lick I'd agree, but since Kane scores more and probably contributes more to his team's overall defense, I have to stick with Patty :P 

 

(I'm mostly joking about the defensive comparison. Mostly.)

[Thorny]

Patrick Kane WISHES he had Erik Karlsson's sweet, sweet flow. I've changed my vote. Karlsson is now the better player.

[WildCard]

Here's a question: Is ROR better than Toews, or Bergeron?

Edited January 15, 2016 by WildCard

[Randall Flagg]

LOL at Blues goalie Elliot smashing every other Blues players sticks on his way to the locker room after being pulled. F it. If you won't score for me and it makes me look bad I'll break all you're f'n sticks!

 

https://youtu.be/3zouwI3Toj4

I think at the Eleven second mark, Hitch angrily says pull this f'n a hole. That's real angry eleven right there.

Carolina has excellent possession numbers, and they're starting to get the bounces. I wouldn't be surprised to see them go on a little run and flirt with the playoffs.

Here's a question: Is ROR better than Toews, or Bergeron?

I think ROR is as good as Toews as far as on-ice talent goes, but without the resume of team accomplishments. I think he'll add those in due time.

 

Bergeron is in a class by himself in my eyes.

[WildCard]

Anyone remember when some of us wanted to give Sekera $5m/year? Well, he's having his worst season since his last year here in Buffalo, in 2012-2013, in just about every category, most notably possession stats. He does have 16 points, so the offense is there, but he's been atrocious everywhere else

I think ROR is as good as Toews as far as on-ice talent goes, but without the resume of team accomplishments. I think he'll add those in due time.

 

Bergeron is in a class by himself in my eyes.

The bold is well stated, and if I would have caught myself posting this a year ago I'd think I was drunk. Their CF% and FF% are remarkably similar, and O'Reilly's are actually better, 3.3 in both for him and 3.2 and 2.7 respectively for Toews. His scoring has never been where Toews has been, expect one season, but he's on pace for 74 points this year, a 19 point improvement from last year and 10 more than his career high. Sustainable? I'm not sure

Edited January 15, 2016 by WildCard

[Thorny]

Anyone remember when some of us wanted to give Sekera $5m/year? Well, he's having his worst season since his last year here in Buffalo, in 2012-2013, in just about every category, most notably possession stats. He does have 16 points, so the offense is there, but he's been atrocious everywhere else

The bold is well stated, and if I would have caught myself posting this a year ago I'd think I was drunk. Their CF% and FF% are remarkably similar, and O'Reilly's are actually better, 3.3 in both for him and 3.2 and 2.7 respectively for Toews. His scoring has never been where Toews has been, expect one season, but he's on pace for 74 points this year, a 19 point improvement from last year and 10 more than his career high. Sustainable? I'm not sure

 

A total which would be higher than every one of Toews's seasons thus far except one, without the complimentary scoring Toews has had. And he's only 24. It's an intriguing comparison, and one that, even by just being made, says a lot about the level ROR is at as a player.

[WildCard]

The Blues brought both the Presidents of the Cardinals and Blues to drop the puck tonight, announcing how great a sports town St.Louis is and will be. The crowd chanted 'Kroenke Sucks!' during the ceremony

A total which would be higher than every one of Toews's seasons thus far except one, without the complimentary scoring Toews has had. And he's only 24. It's an intriguing comparison, and one that, even by just being made, says a lot about the level ROR is at as a player.

ROR had plenty of support in Colorado, more than he's had here. Difference is, this year he gets ice time in big minutes, and feels appreciated

[Thorny]

The Blues brought both the Presidents of the Cardinals and Blues to drop the puck tonight, announcing how great a sports town St.Louis is and will be. The crowd chanted 'Kroenke Sucks!' during the ceremony

ROR had plenty of support in Colorado, more than he's had here. Difference is, this year he gets ice time in big minutes, and feels appreciated

 

I meant that ROR is putting up that 74 point pace this year, without much scoring support. It's been a very impressive season thus far that compares favorably to lots of great players.

[shrader]

The Blues brought both the Presidents of the Cardinals and Blues to drop the puck tonight, announcing how great a sports town St.Louis is and will be. The crowd chanted 'Kroenke Sucks!' during the ceremony

 

 

They should have saved this for a game against the Avs.

[TrueBlueGED]

Here's a question: Is ROR better than Toews, or Bergeron?

I think that while ROR is having a better season than Toews, I'm not ready to say he's a better player. I have to see him finish the year like this and then do something close to it again to really consider it. That said, at $3 million cheaper, he's clearly a better value.

 

Bergeron is better than both defensively, and close enough offensively where I think he's better overall. Frankly, I think his usually lower offensive production than Toews is due to insanely extreme usage by Julien. It's close though. In video game terms I'd give Bergeron a 97 and Toews a 95.

[dudacek]

Toews got his rep on the biggest stage in hockey.

That's why he deserves it and why he is not overrated.

 

ROR is a very similar player — best Sabre since Lafontaine — but until he gets to the big stage he is not even in the Toews conversation.

Bergeron, however, is.

[WildCard]

Bergeron is in a class by himself in my eyes.

Bergeron is better than both defensively, and close enough offensively where I think he's better overall. Frankly, I think his usually lower offensive production than Toews is due to insanely extreme usage by Julien. It's close though. In video game terms I'd give Bergeron a 97 and Toews a 95.

Bergeron literally does have video game stats. I noted above the career possession stats for CF/FF rel for both Toews and ROR (they hover around ~3 in all cases), well Bergeron's career totals are:

 

CF% rel: 5.1 (9.6 last season)

FF% rel: 5.6 (9.8 last season)

 

That is insane, beyond insane really. Talk about underrated? This guy fits the bill. Even with that, he still puts up high 50's to low 60's in points ever year. Unreal