Was Lindy the problem?

[BarDown]

Ruff is a great hockey coach, but he had to leave. Not for our sake, for his. I coach and I know what it's like to throw everything into your job...it's your passion, your obsession. In the days before he was fired, you could see in his face he was a beaten man. The losing was killing him.

 

Look at it this way, when Pegula bought the team and brought in Erhoff, Regher, Leino, and whoever else, we thought we were contenders. The organization did as well...things looked great. We were rolling...then, the Lucic thing. That season was lost. Then we had the lockout, and all the talk was we need to be tougher. We bring in Ott and Scott, great, we're tougher, but we still lose. The organization (including Ruff) thinks they should be good, but they're not, and Ruff blames himself...and he becomes a beaten man. When you put your heart and soul into something and it fails, sadly, that happens.

 

So, to save himself, Darcy gets rid of Ruff (which was probably the best thing for Ruff), and the organization determines they can't win with what they have, so they decide to rebuild...which may work. They are gonna be bad. They want McDavid. They keep Rolston, which they tell us is because he's great for the young kids, when in reality they know no one would want the job. Who wants to coach and be awful for the next two years. People wanted Patrick Roy...why would he want to start his NHL coaching career and be hisorically bad. Obviously that's why Vanek and Miller want out, the losing in front of us is going to be biblical.

[X. Benedict]

This is a load of crap and I think you know it.

 

Of course Lindy wasn't THE problem. Of course Lindy is a good coach and would mop the floor with Ran. Lindy's time was clearly up.

 

 

Whoa there! ........................We seem to agree on this. (Old habits I guess). I'm not wishing Lindy back. Just stating the obvious that firing him wasn't the fix. From this roster, He couldn't make lines. Rolston can't make lines. Toe Blake couldn't make lines out of this.

[K-9]

Ruff is a great hockey coach, but he had to leave. Not for our sake, for his. I coach and I know what it's like to throw everything into your job...it's your passion, your obsession. In the days before he was fired, you could see in his face he was a beaten man. The losing was killing him.

 

Look at it this way, when Pegula bought the team and brought in Erhoff, Regher, Leino, and whoever else, we thought we were contenders. The organization did as well...things looked great. We were rolling...then, the Lucic thing. That season was lost. Then we had the lockout, and all the talk was we need to be tougher. We bring in Ott and Scott, great, we're tougher, but we still lose. The organization (including Ruff) thinks they should be good, but they're not, and Ruff blames himself...and he becomes a beaten man. When you put your heart and soul into something and it fails, sadly, that happens.

 

So, to save himself, Darcy gets rid of Ruff (which was probably the best thing for Ruff), and the organization determines they can't win with what they have, so they decide to rebuild...which may work. They are gonna be bad. They want McDavid. They keep Rolston, which they tell us is because he's great for the young kids, when in reality they know no one would want the job. Who wants to coach and be awful for the next two years. People wanted Patrick Roy...why would he want to start his NHL coaching career and be hisorically bad. Obviously that's why Vanek and Miller want out, the losing in front of us is going to be biblical.

 

Lots of good insight here.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

Of course, Kassian hasn't exactly proven your theory...

 

We can go through this again if you want. Torres/Pyatt/Bernier/Kassian....look at the teams the ended up playing on and their playoff strike rates. While individually none of them will be confused with Hall of Fame material, since leaving Buffalo, those 4 have been to the playoffs 14 out of 18 seasons, Kassian is the only one not to have been in a conference final, and Bernier and Torres both played all the way through on Stanley Cup teams.

 

Other than the immediate year after Pyatt left Buffalo 8 years ago, the Sabres have failed to win a playoff series with the players deemed more valuable. They managed to go to the playoffs in 6 of those 18 player seasons.

 

Kassian...... he has played 67 games outside of Buffalo in the regular season and has 10 goals.

 

Let's look at some goal totals for current Sabres top 3-9 forwards in their past 67 games...close to half of which were under Ruff....

 

Hodgson 19

Ennis 14

Ott 11

Stafford 10

Foligno 8

Lieno 8

 

So....was Raffi fat? Was Bernier useless? Was Pyatt quiet? Is Zack a hack?

 

It sure seems that teams who know what it takes to play in the REAL season, value these guys, and they have played valuable parts as gritty, big bodied skaters who can play on almost any line depending on the circumstances.

 

And Kassian would have at the very least, fit in with any of the top 9 wingers on the Sabres the past 3 years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[K-9]

We can go through this again if you want. Torres/Pyatt/Bernier/Kassian....look at the teams the ended up playing on and their playoff strike rates. While individually none of them will be confused with Hall of Fame material, since leaving Buffalo, those 4 have been to the playoffs 14 out of 18 seasons, Kassian is the only one not to have been in a conference final, and Bernier and Torres both played all the way through on Stanley Cup teams. ...

 

Sorry, I couldn't get passed this paragraph as I find it a bit disingenuous. It seems you would have us believe the respective teams all those players went to, reached the playoffs because of their contributions. As if they weren't already talented enough teams to get to the playoffs in the first place.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[darksabre]

[/size]

 

Sorry, I couldn't get passed this paragraph as I find it a bit disingenuous. It seems you would have us believe the respective teams all those players went to, reached the playoffs because of their contributions. As if they weren't already talented enough teams to get to the playoffs in the first place.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

And most of those players underwhelmed in Buffalo, and still underwhelm on the teams they are on. They all have the same symptomatic issue (minus Pyatt perhaps) of being unacceptably soft when it comes to possession. Has anyone watched Kassian play lately, because I have. That guy is Drew Stafford with less teeth.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Ruff is a great hockey coach, but he had to leave. Not for our sake, for his. I coach and I know what it's like to throw everything into your job...it's your passion, your obsession. In the days before he was fired, you could see in his face he was a beaten man. The losing was killing him.

 

Look at it this way, when Pegula bought the team and brought in Erhoff, Regher, Leino, and whoever else, we thought we were contenders. The organization did as well...things looked great. We were rolling...then, the Lucic thing. That season was lost. Then we had the lockout, and all the talk was we need to be tougher. We bring in Ott and Scott, great, we're tougher, but we still lose. The organization (including Ruff) thinks they should be good, but they're not, and Ruff blames himself...and he becomes a beaten man. When you put your heart and soul into something and it fails, sadly, that happens.

 

So, to save himself, Darcy gets rid of Ruff (which was probably the best thing for Ruff), and the organization determines they can't win with what they have, so they decide to rebuild...which may work. They are gonna be bad. They want McDavid. They keep Rolston, which they tell us is because he's great for the young kids, when in reality they know no one would want the job. Who wants to coach and be awful for the next two years. People wanted Patrick Roy...why would he want to start his NHL coaching career and be hisorically bad. Obviously that's why Vanek and Miller want out, the losing in front of us is going to be biblical.

 

One counter point....Roy went to a team WORSE than Buffalo.

 

You can say they have more talent, but we were led to believe from the Sabres front office that Myers, Ennis, Hodgson, Stafford, Vanek, Miller, Ehrhoff, Lieno, Ott, Foligno and company were a pretty talented bunch. And the salaries handed out to them by the current GM sure as heck says they should be. That's not including Grigerenko, Girgensons, Ristolainen, Zadorov, Armia, McNabb and McCabe that we hear so much about.

 

All those guys minus the D-men were here and available to Lindy as well.

 

I agree with you though that Ruff was spent. I like the guy a lot as a person, but have become confused as to what is his coaching philosophy and what was done out of necessity. I can buy some of it, but still think he fancies himself as a teacher and leader moreso than letting guys with the actual talent and grit on the ice go ahead and be THE team. In my opinion, Generals "guide"...and Sgts. drill. I saw way too much drilling of seasoned veterans over the years, and too many guys with talent and grit run for the exits under bad terms (Peca, Gilmore, Drury, Dumont, Grier, etc.)

 

Good luck to Lindy. His legacy will probably look brighter because of this cluster-f we are forced to endure. If Pegula had cleaned house right off the bat and brought in a Dudley/Torts combo, or something equal....he may have been remembered differently.

 

[/size]

 

Sorry, I couldn't get passed this paragraph as I find it a bit disingenuous. It seems you would have us believe the respective teams all those players went to, reached the playoffs because of their contributions. As if they weren't already talented enough teams to get to the playoffs in the first place.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

So these guys had no place on a team like Buffalo that couldn't make the playoffs....but they are regulars on talented teams and that is supposed to be a praise on Buffalo and a knock on the players?

 

Think about what you just said.

 

 

 

 

 

And most of those players underwhelmed in Buffalo, and still underwhelm on the teams they are on. They all have the same symptomatic issue (minus Pyatt perhaps) of being unacceptably soft when it comes to possession. Has anyone watched Kassian play lately, because I have. That guy is Drew Stafford with less teeth.

 

Why did they underwhelm in Buffalo?

 

I saw Bernier score 5 goals in a Stanley cup run.

Torres is talked about all over as a guy you want for the playoffs. Even with his overaggressive activity at time.

 

Again, these guys aren't All Stars....but teams that know how to get it done seem to be able to find use for them...and a good bit of use at that.

[TrueBlueGED]

One counter point....Roy went to a team WORSE than Buffalo.

 

You can say they have more talent, but we were led to believe from the Sabres front office that Myers, Ennis, Hodgson, Stafford, Vanek, Miller, Ehrhoff, Lieno, Ott, Foligno and company were a pretty talented bunch. And the salaries handed out to them by the current GM sure as heck says they should be. That's not including Grigerenko, Girgensons, Ristolainen, Zadorov, Armia, McNabb and McCabe that we hear so much about.

 

All those guys minus the D-men were here and available to Lindy as well.

 

I agree with you though that Ruff was spent. I like the guy a lot as a person, but have become confused as to what is his coaching philosophy and what was done out of necessity. I can buy some of it, but still think he fancies himself as a teacher and leader moreso than letting guys with the actual talent and grit on the ice go ahead and be THE team. In my opinion, Generals "guide"...and Sgts. drill. I saw way too much drilling of seasoned veterans over the years, and too many guys with talent and grit run for the exits under bad terms (Peca, Gilmore, Drury, Dumont, Grier, etc.)

 

Good luck to Lindy. His legacy will probably look brighter because of this cluster-f we are forced to endure. If Pegula had cleaned house right off the bat and brought in a Dudley/Torts combo, or something equal....he may have been remembered differently.

 

 

 

So these guys had no place on a team like Buffalo that couldn't make the playoffs....but they are regulars on talented teams and that is supposed to be a praise on Buffalo and a knock on the players?

 

Think about what you just said.

 

 

 

 

 

Why did they underwhelm in Buffalo?

 

I saw Bernier score 5 goals in a Stanley cup run.

Torres is talked about all over as a guy you want for the playoffs. Even with his overaggressive activity at time.

 

Again, these guys aren't All Stars....but teams that know how to get it done seem to be able to find use for them...and a good bit of use at that.

 

And plenty of other teams that know how to get it done in the playoffs weren't exactly falling over themselves to acquire these guys.

 

Edit: To expand a little...you're trying to weave a narrative with largely replacement-level players. It's weak. Did some of these guys go on to be alright role players? Sure, but they weren't doing anything 60 other guys in the league can't or don't do.

[nfreeman]

We can go through this again if you want. Torres/Pyatt/Bernier/Kassian....look at the teams the ended up playing on and their playoff strike rates. While individually none of them will be confused with Hall of Fame material, since leaving Buffalo, those 4 have been to the playoffs 14 out of 18 seasons, Kassian is the only one not to have been in a conference final, and Bernier and Torres both played all the way through on Stanley Cup teams.

 

Other than the immediate year after Pyatt left Buffalo 8 years ago, the Sabres have failed to win a playoff series with the players deemed more valuable. They managed to go to the playoffs in 6 of those 18 player seasons.

 

Kassian...... he has played 67 games outside of Buffalo in the regular season and has 10 goals.

 

Let's look at some goal totals for current Sabres top 3-9 forwards in their past 67 games...close to half of which were under Ruff....

 

Hodgson 19

Ennis 14

Ott 11

Stafford 10

Foligno 8

Lieno 8

 

So....was Raffi fat? Was Bernier useless? Was Pyatt quiet? Is Zack a hack?

 

It sure seems that teams who know what it takes to play in the REAL season, value these guys, and they have played valuable parts as gritty, big bodied skaters who can play on almost any line depending on the circumstances.

 

And Kassian would have at the very least, fit in with any of the top 9 wingers on the Sabres the past 3 years.

 

Hold the phone. No one is saying those guys aren't as good, more or less, as the Staffords or Leinos of the world, or that the Sabres made the right choice in letting those guys go in favor of the guys they kept.

 

You have repeatedly argued that Lindy didn't know how to coach true power forwards, and that seeing how Kassian does in Vancouver would be a good test of that theory (presumably even more so now that Torts is coaching him). I am just saying that Kassian's performance to date (and it's still early) does NOT support your theory -- and in fact probably tends towards disproving it because Kassian is undeniably as mediocre in Vancouver as he was here.

 

[/size]

 

Sorry, I couldn't get passed this paragraph as I find it a bit disingenuous. It seems you would have us believe the respective teams all those players went to, reached the playoffs because of their contributions. As if they weren't already talented enough teams to get to the playoffs in the first place.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

And this too. None of those guys was a real contributor on any of those teams. GoDD -- that was a bit of Larry Quinn doubletalk. Not your best work.

 

I agree with you though that Ruff was spent. I like the guy a lot as a person, but have become confused as to what is his coaching philosophy and what was done out of necessity. I can buy some of it, but still think he fancies himself as a teacher and leader moreso than letting guys with the actual talent and grit on the ice go ahead and be THE team. In my opinion, Generals "guide"...and Sgts. drill. I saw way too much drilling of seasoned veterans over the years, and too many guys with talent and grit run for the exits under bad terms (Peca, Gilmore, Drury, Dumont, Grier, etc.)

 

Good luck to Lindy. His legacy will probably look brighter because of this cluster-f we are forced to endure. If Pegula had cleaned house right off the bat and brought in a Dudley/Torts combo, or something equal....he may have been remembered differently.

 

None of those guys left because of Lindy (except maybe Gilmour -- not sure about him). The rest were all money decisions.

 

As for Lindy's legacy, it will be bright because of 4 final 4s in 9 seasons despite incompetent/penny-pinching/criminal ownership and senior management and 2 Canadian Olympic teams -- not because he needs to be contrasted with this CF to look good.

[K-9]

So these guys had no place on a team like Buffalo that couldn't make the playoffs....but they are regulars on talented teams and that is supposed to be a praise on Buffalo and a knock on the players?

 

Think about what you just said.

 

You are moving the goalposts. You made a correlation to "playoff strike rates" and the acquisition of these players by those teams.

 

And given their ineptitude when playing for the Sabres, no, they didn't have a place on the Sabres AT THAT TIME. Possible exception being Pyatt.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I know what I know....

 

I'm out of this thread!

 

Good luck Lindy....I hope you get a Cup someday...

 

We have bigger fish to fry at this point.

[PASabreFan]

Whoa there! ........................We seem to agree on this. (Old habits I guess). I'm not wishing Lindy back. Just stating the obvious that firing him wasn't the fix. From this roster, He couldn't make lines. Rolston can't make lines. Toe Blake couldn't make lines out of this.

 

Lindy never had this roster. And I've always believed someone of his stature, with the same GM for 15 years, had to wield considerable power and influence regarding the players he ended up with.

 

Well, you were beating the "fire Lindy" drum for about 5 years -- and what were the results? The team is shockingly bad -- and Vanek, whom you thought was in the same class as Crosby and Ovechkin but was being held back by Lindy, didn't improve a whit under a new coach (and actually got less ice time under RR than under Lindy). Or do you think someone other than RR would have done better than both RR and Lindy? How many times do we need to test this theory?

 

Maybe Lindy couldn't make chicken salad out of the chicken poopie that DR gave him, but that doesn't mean that anyone else could have, or that his time here was up. Maybe it just means that the chicken poopie was in fact chicken poopie and that the chicken that pooped out the poopie should have been canned long ago.

 

 

I don't think I argued Vanek was in the same "class" as Crosby, just that his production relative to ice time was close.

 

Who would have been better than Lindy? I don't know Who was out there? :) Lindy shouldn't be evaluated on the basis of how Ron is doing with even less than Lindy had last season. He should be evaluated on how his high-priced, talent-laden, Presidents' Trophy team did in the 2007 playoffs. They were flat from Game 1 against the Islanders on.

[I am Defecting]

To answer the OP's question, it's a question of ultimate responsibility for the team's performance. Lindy accepted full responsibility for what was considered to be gross underachievement, last season. Was he ultimately responsible for the teams performance? Of course not. He wasn't responsible for picking the players, for burying key shots, or for making key saves, or even for the inflated expectations. But because of the management structure, he was an easy target. He claimed full responsibility, for whatever reason, time and time again.

 

As fans, under better circumstances, we seem to look up to the players, who look up to the coach, who looks up to the GM, who looks up to the Team President, who looks up to the Owner. Conversely, it seems that the owner should be able to look down to the president, the GM, the coach, and the players, and cast good judgment. In this paradigm, it is the owner(s) who should be held ultimately responsible.

 

The funny thing is that the fans are actually customers. The fans are actually positioned above the ice, to look down on the players and on-ice product. To what extent are the fans truly responsible for the continued mediocrity? Are we actually below the players, on the management structure, or are we above the owner? I am wondering what implication the slogans 'Hockey Heaven,' 'One Nation Under Pegula,' and 'Pegulaville,' have in this owner/fan relationship. In what role do these slogans cast us as fans, and in what role do they cast the owner? Do they not imply that the owner is sovereign over all of 'Sabres Nation,' thus ruler over the collective fate of all the fans? Is this relationship not a clear example of false idolatry?

 

Is it any wonder that the Hockey Gods might be angry at us, and that prospective free-agents, coaches, and general managers have been avoiding our team like the plague? Is there a single player on this team that wouldn't rather be playing hockey for another team? Is the fact that Vanek turned down the chance to become the highest paid player in Hockey, not a giant flashing red warning sign that the situation is doomed, unless we, as fans take a more active role in the fate of the organization.

 

"Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him." (Mark 12:17)

 

[X. Benedict]

Lindy never had this roster. And I've always believed someone of his stature, with the same GM for 15 years, had to wield considerable power and influence regarding the players he ended up with.

 

 

Psst. It's really Rip Simonik. It's been Rip the entire time.

[PASabreFan]

Great post, Yuri. A caller on Ted's show yesterday asked a good question of Ted. To paraphase, "We suffer. When will you?" The clearly implied "you" was the organization, given that the caller was asking about refunds for season ticket holders. Of course Ted took it personally and went back to his dark days in Pittsburgh, and Jeremy White thought that Ted's suffering was happening at that moment, because of the question. It's a good question. When will the bottom line of the franchise start to suffer, and will it make any difference?

[nfreeman]

I don't think I argued Vanek was in the same "class" as Crosby, just that his production relative to ice time was close.

 

Here's what you said:

 

As good as Ovechkin? Of course not. But if you look at total time on the ice last year, and goals scored, Vanek outdid him, and Crosby, Malkin and Kovalchuk.

 

Vanek scored 1.91 goals for every 60 minutes of ice time he got. Ovechkin, 1.85.

 

Besides the flash and dash and crazy goals and celebrations and star power, how much better is Ovechkin, really?

 

So I'd say we're both kinda right.

 

But I don't think you would dispute that you thought Lindy was holding Vanek back.

 

Do you still think that?

[Iron Crotch]

The knock on Lindy was supposedly that he was too hard on the players, especially the younger players. He would hammer them relentlessly to be better - would bench them, would yell at them... whether they were capable of improving or not. Some guys obviously cracked under that sort of pressure, but others "got a fire lit" and raised their level of play. To contrast Lindy, many think we purposely went with a soft-spoken, cerebral type of coach in Rolston. They were talking about just that on NHL radio (SiriusXM) yesterday.

 

IMHO, with a team full of youngsters and newcomers we'd be better off with a Lindy-style coach. These younger players seem to need a motivator as a coach. Perhaps with a team full of veterans (which is more of what we had the past couple of years), that'd be when you would want a Rolston-type coach? ...hard to say.

[TrueBlueGED]

I just want someone who doesn't give John Scott offensive zone starts when the team is trailing. Is that so much to ask for?

[Peter]

Lindy clearly was not the problem. Similarly, RR clearly is not the answer.

[I am Defecting]

PA, et al, I don't know much about the Sabres internal financial situation. The lines are blurred now between Sabres Hockey and East Resources/Management?. So...not to beat a dead horse, but if you believe that the underlying motive for Pegula buying the team was to win votes on the NY natural gas issue, then the owner may have already been damaged financially when the moratorium was extended, and experimental fracking abruptly halted in NYS. The political equation Sabres Awesome= Pegula Awesome= Fracking OK, is now completely and utterly useless.

So, not to beat a dead horse, but if he bought the team, because he was looking to drill another gas well, he won't recoup the investment until the team is sold, or new wells get fracked along shallow ancient fault lines despite ever-mounting ecological/geological concern. So, the cynicist in me expects the next gubernatorial election to convince him either to continue fracking, or cut bait.

Regarding hockey matters, the franchise' reputation is already suffering. "Living in infamy," isn't an enviable position, no matter how wealthy one is. I totally agree that season ticket holders should be entitled to refunds, and if they continue to press the issue, some measure of satisfaction could be achieved. I liked the caller's point, but, by suffering, I took Darcy's comment to be not about the front office, who can afford anything they want, including slavish people, but a nod to humble Sabres fans of the Rastifarian slant, a large and significant majority, as in sufferah: a poor but righteous person. Sorry again, for beating the dead horse.

[Peppy22]

We will never know, cause we have no idea how the team would play today with Lindy.

[K-9]

Doesn't matter if Lindy was the problem or not.

 

He wasn't part of the solution.

 

Next.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Chief Enabler]

Sorry for the epic slow recap of a post. Sounds like it was lindys time to go but rolston wasn't the answer, I agree. Long signings of errorhoff and leino signings are evidence of bad moves.

 

Darcy continues to grasp at top ten busts from Edmonton and elsewhere for trade to justify creditbility and trade value without consideration of the core group. Which today is a zero.

 

What good is drafting so many in the next two years do tomorrow? We live in an age of instant gratification. Get with it.

 

 

[inkman]

Darcy continues to grasp at top ten busts from Edmonton

Who are you referring to?

[Chief Enabler]

Who are you referring to?

Coming off the recent week rumblings of trade traffic of yakupov and news article of Darcy first round track record has been fresh on the brain. Also, my perspective on the Kassian/Cody swap was a sign of weakness drafting first rounders IMO.