TrueBlueGED Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 BS. Miller gave up 108 goals in 40 and 2.81 GAA Enroth gave up 27 goals in 12 and 2.60 GAA PLEASE tell me how I'm "making it up". FAIL. We had a 52 game season? Fail indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 BS. Miller gave up 108 goals in 40 and 2.81 GAA Enroth gave up 27 goals in 12 and 2.60 GAA PLEASE tell me how I'm "making it up". FAIL. If you're going to use stats to make a point, then understanding how sampling sizes affect results would be a good start in not "failing". One cannot make legitimate comparison of Enroth and Miller using the stats currently available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 BS. Miller gave up 108 goals in 40 and 2.81 GAA Enroth gave up 27 goals in 12 and 2.60 GAA PLEASE tell me how I'm "making it up". FAIL. We had a 52 game season? Fail indeed. Otuside of that you are judging 1 player on a 9 game (starts) sample size and the other player on a 39 games (starts) sample size. So you are judging Enroth on 18.75% of the total games played and Miller on 81.25% of the games... those sample sizes are so far askew you can not say without a doubt that if both players played 41 games or 50% of the Season Enroth would be best. A poor 1 or 2 games would drop Enroth's SV% to Miller's .915 I feel like a broken record, have at it. I like Enroth and hope he continues his stellar play this season. Next year or if Miller gets traded then I am all for Enroth being the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 I thought the same thing. I'm as happy about Enroth's recent turnaround as anyone, but how many games did he go without a win over how long a period? How many goals did the Sabres score during that stretch? How many starters were out injured? Miller wouldn't have won any of those games either. Nevermind. I'm not getting involved in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 I love it when Miller flips out. Better than hearing Pominville mumble something about working harder and next time. Pretty much how I feel, exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHSabresFan Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 If you're going to use stats to make a point, then understanding how sampling sizes affect results would be a good start in not "failing". One cannot make legitimate comparison of Enroth and Miller using the stats currently available. The COMMENT MADE was that I made up that Enroth outperformed Miller. I have proven that was WRONG- the sampling size is immaterial! In the games played, Enroth was better than Miller. 2.80 GAA is STILL worse than 2.61 GAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 The COMMENT MADE was that I made up that Enroth outperformed Miller. I have proven that was WRONG- the sampling size is immaterial! In the games played, Enroth was better than Miller. 2.80 GAA is STILL worse than 2.61 GAA. The force is not strong with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 How many goals did the Sabres score during that stretch? How many starters were out injured? Miller wouldn't have won any of those games either. Nevermind. I'm not getting involved in this. I don't discount any of the your struck through language above. Except the last sentence about Miller. We just have no way of knowing. The fact remains that, for whatever reason, Enroth slumped and slumped badly. Getting no help from his teammates aside, his confidence was shaken and he wasn't the same goalie mentally or mechanically. Sure looks like he turned it around though. Hope he continues. GO SABRES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 The force is not strong with this one. Don't worry. He's the same guy that wanted Enroth/Leggio tandem. We didn't even re-sign Leggio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnkirishone Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Don't worry. He's the same guy that wanted Enroth/Leggio tandem. We didn't even re-sign Leggio. and that is why you faillll. Damn it wheres my yoda mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 The COMMENT MADE was that I made up that Enroth outperformed Miller. I have proven that was WRONG- the sampling size is immaterial! In the games played, Enroth was better than Miller. 2.80 GAA is STILL worse than 2.61 GAA. So you don't understand statistics? That's fine. I'm not the one who has to live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 I don't discount any of the your struck through language above. Except the last sentence about Miller. We just have no way of knowing. The fact remains that, for whatever reason, Enroth slumped and slumped badly. Getting no help from his teammates aside, his confidence was shaken and he wasn't the same goalie mentally or mechanically. Sure looks like he turned it around though. Hope he continues. GO SABRES!!! Sorry, when I changed my mind and said I wasn't getting involved, that wasn't directed at you. Hope you didn't get the impression I didn't want to talk to you. ;) Just that we've been down this road before, I see no need to rehash it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Although I would like to add, the sample size is completely irrelevant to the fact that Enroth did have better numbers. Comparing averages has nothing to do with sample size. Comparing volume or in this case, starts per season, yeah. But not when comparing averages. Better is better. For a group so obsessed with statistics, I'm surprised with the criticism of BMore. (I really wish this forum wouldn't merge posts, it really takes away from making two completely unrelated points. Is post wh0ring really an issue here?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Further to the Seguin discussion, here's some behind-the-scenes discussion of the Bruins' top brass in deciding whether to trade him (at around 5:20 and 9:30): Pretty interesting stuff, IMHO. I'd love to see this from the Sabres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Although I would like to add, the sample size is completely irrelevant to the fact that Enroth did have better numbers. Comparing averages has nothing to do with sample size. Comparing volume or in this case, starts per season, yeah. But not when comparing averages. Better is better. For a group so obsessed with statistics, I'm surprised with the criticism of BMore. (I really wish this forum wouldn't merge posts, it really takes away from making two completely unrelated points. Is post wh0ring really an issue here?) This is just incorrect. Sample size absolutely matters when dealing with averages. If the sample size is too small, then you can't put much faith in the average derived from that sample. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 This is just incorrect. Sample size absolutely matters when dealing with averages. If the sample size is too small, then you can't put much faith in the average derived from that sample. Whether he started 3 games or 300. The numbers showed he performed better. Whether he can keep performing up to those standards is another discussion. The fact remains that in the games that Enroth played in, overall he performed better, and did so in consecutive seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 The COMMENT MADE was that I made up that Enroth outperformed Miller. I have proven that was WRONG- the sampling size is immaterial! In the games played, Enroth was better than Miller. 2.80 GAA is STILL worse than 2.61 GAA. 2.80 X 82 games = 229.6 2.61 X 82 games = 214.02 Making a difference of 15.58 goals over an entire 82 game season. O and most GM's in the league will tell you openly that for goaltenders, they look at SV% more often than GAA. And as I have said Enroth's SV% could fluctuate greatly because he only started 9 games. 1 or 2 bad games drops his SV% down. Whether he started 3 games or 300. The numbers showed he performed better. Whether he can keep performing up to those standards is another discussion. The fact remains that in the games that Enroth played in, overall he performed better, and did so in consecutive seasons. Right the question is can Enroth sustained a .919sv% over a say 60gp season. It is highly questionable. I mean in 45 games started his SV% is .914 compared to Miller's .915% over 492 games started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 2.80 X 82 games = 229.6 2.61 X 82 games = 214.02 Making a difference of 15.58 goals over an entire 82 game season. O and most GM's in the league will tell you openly that for goaltenders, they look at SV% more often than GAA. And as I have said Enroth's SV% could fluctuate greatly because he only started 9 games. 1 or 2 bad games drops his SV% down. One or two great games could bring it up. Neat thing about statistics, they are absolute. There is no coulda, woulda, shoulda. Enroth was better. There is no stat saying 'he might have gotten worse or better depending on x amount of games played'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 One or two great games could bring it up. Neat thing about statistics, they are absolute. There is no coulda, woulda, shoulda. Enroth was better. There is no stat saying 'he might have gotten worse or better depending on x amount of games played'. Again sample size matters a lot here. Scientific Studies of 10 are not as good as studies with a sample size of say 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Again sample size matters a lot here. Scientific Studies of 10 are not as good as studies with a sample size of say 40. Who had a better save percentage? Who had a better GAA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 One or two great games could bring it up. Neat thing about statistics, they are absolute. There is no coulda, woulda, shoulda. Enroth was better. There is no stat saying 'he might have gotten worse or better depending on x amount of games played'. Knowing the issues with the sample size and trying to simplify it to "Enroth was better! Who cares if it can continue, he was better!" is a disingenuous argument at best. Implicit in the argument for keeping Enroth and jettisoning Miller is the belief that Enroth can continue to perform to his averages, which we really shouldn't be confident in asserting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Who had a better save percentage? Who had a better GAA? Who has been better in their career? For both of those categories. My question is not was Enroth better than Miller last season. My question is can Enroth be better than Miller over the course of an entire season getting regular starts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Knowing the issues with the sample size and trying to simplify it to "Enroth was better! Who cares if it can continue, he was better!" is a disingenuous argument at best. Implicit in the argument for keeping Enroth and jettisoning Miller is the belief that Enroth can continue to perform to his averages, which we really shouldn't be confident in asserting. I'm not basing my opinion that they should jettison Miller because Enroth is (or could be) better, I'm basing it on the fact that he is an average, at best, NHL caliber goaltender now. I'm comparing him to the rest of the league. It just so happens that his numbers are inferior to Enroth over the last two years. Whether he can handle being a long term starter is open for discussion. Who has been better in their career? For both of those categories. My question is not was Enroth better than Miller last season. My question is can Enroth be better than Miller over the course of an entire season getting regular starts? Answer my question. This isn't about career, this is about now. What have you done for me lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 No offense but this is like two nerds having a slap fight in a phone booth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 The funny part about it is, sample size is the key issue here in that some don't think he's played enough games to have proven himself. But, they won't hesitate to throw out Enroth's losing streak in defense of Miller even though the team couldn't put more than 1 puck in the net per game during that streak. Isn't it ironic, don't you think? No offense but this is like two nerds having a slap fight in a phone booth. That's where I go to put on my Superman outfit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 The funny part about it is, sample size is the key issue here in that some don't think he's played enough games to have proven himself. But, they won't hesitate to throw out Enroth's losing streak in defense of Miller even though the team couldn't put more than 1 puck in the net per game during that streak. Isn't it ironic, don't you think? Please provide the quote for where I mention anything about Enroth's losing streak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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