Koomkie Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Harry Neale. Ever since he came in it's been nothin' but trouble. Bring back Jim Lorentz! YES!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulFuture Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Veteran experience to keep Vanek Pominville Leino Ehrhoff Rehger Young players to keep Gerbe Myers McNabb Adam Ennis Player I want Luke Schenn in a trade including Derek Roy. Toronto looking for a Center, bye Roy. Young players coming up Kassian Armia Pysyk Suhnder Trade every one else or let them walk at end of contract. My new line up in 2 years. Defense Rehger Ehrhoff Myers Schenn McNabb Pysyk Forward LW Vanek Leino Ennis Gerbe C ? Suhnder (It's possible, he has some nice speed) Adam ? RW Pominville Armia Kassian ? Goalies ? ? So, let's just pick up a couple of goalies, a couple of centers and right winger :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyvegas Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I really believe behind the D, the Sabres won't need an elite goalie, just a good one like what Minnesota has done over the past ten years. Does anyone still think Miller is an elite goalie? I'm starting to feel like the concept of an 'elite goalie' in this league is dead. Is there really such a thing anymore? Is there a goalie in the league who's huge salary is justified by the impact he's having in the win column? Maybe the numbers prove it to be true somewhere but to me.. the game is different since the days of Roy, Hasek and Brodeur. Teams seem to do just as well with no name netminders. The Sabres sure do. The way i see it, if you're going to be paid the big bucks like miller, you have to be a difference maker on the same level as a adding a 40 or even 50 goal scorer to your roster. All that said, i'm not placing this seasons woes on Miller. He's just one of many issues... But at that salary, he's got steal games, regularly. At the rate Hasek did. Like an elite goalie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Does anyone still think Miller is an elite goalie? I'm starting to feel like the concept of an 'elite goalie' in this league is dead. Is there really such a thing anymore? Is there a goalie in the league who's huge salary is justified by the impact he's having in the win column? Maybe the numbers prove it to be true somewhere but to me.. the game is different since the days of Roy, Hasek and Brodeur. Teams seem to do just as well with no name netminders. The Sabres sure do. The way i see it, if you're going to be paid the big bucks like miller, you have to be a difference maker on the same level as a adding a 40 or even 50 goal scorer to your roster. All that said, i'm not placing this seasons woes on Miller. He's just one of many issues... But at that salary, he's got steal games, regularly. At the rate Hasek did. Like an elite goalie. I'd gander a guess (OMG I said gander) that Roy, Hasek and Brodeur were the inspiration for many of these young goalies to take up goaltending in the first place. Elite goalies do win big sometimes. Look at Thomas last year. he came up big. Is he elite? meh, he just caught fire the same time his team did. It's all got to come together at the same time or it won't get you very far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Another point on Pommer: I don't think anyone "hates" him as one poster mentioned above. If he made $2.5MM and didn't wear a letter I'd be very happy with him. But there are 2 critical issues with him: 1. Trading him frees up a big chunk of cap room to bring in a really good player -- i.e. him plus Leopold gives you $8.3MM, which is enough for the #1 UFA pretty much every year. Also, he would probably bring back a pretty good pick or prospect in trade. 2. As a top 6 forward for the past 5 years and the current captain, he is part and parcel of the team's identity -- which at this point can only be described as soft, mentally weak and underachieving. As an example: Pommer was the closest or 2nd-closest skater to Lucic-Miller. Danny Gare would've immediately and without hesitation performed some hockey dentistry on Lucic. The same is true of Darcy Tucker, Ryan Callahan, Brenden Morrow, Brad Marchand, Mike Richards, and a dozen other top 6 forwards who are about Pommer's size. Pommer got shoved away and meekly went about his business. The team's identity needs to change. N, I actually feel you are right on the money with your list, with a few of the build upon guys I could care less whether they stay or go. I am hoping for a pretty drastic rebuild because just trading one or two guys is not going to change much. Pominville is one of the guys that I would want to be traded the most, since his value is actually pretty high right now with him having a career year. If we can't trade him this year for some good value then it's not going to happen. We need to get into rebuild mode IMO, and the way to do that is to get picks and prospects, younger players that are going to all peak at roughly the same time. That's how to win a cup - having $1MM players playing at a $6MM-$7MM level. For this reason I wouldn't mind keeping a guy like Stafford who is young and has size (where he could begin using it surrounded by Bruin type players) over the veterans like Roy, Pomminstein, Gaustad, Miller, Vanek. By the time we get our proverbial shite together those guys are going to be on their last legs. Keeping them will just perpetuate the mediocrity and have us fighting for 8th year after year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 N, I actually feel you are right on the money with your list, with a few of the build upon guys I could care less whether they stay or go. I am hoping for a pretty drastic rebuild because just trading one or two guys is not going to change much. Pominville is one of the guys that I would want to be traded the most, since his value is actually pretty high right now with him having a career year. If we can't trade him this year for some good value then it's not going to happen. We need to get into rebuild mode IMO, and the way to do that is to get picks and prospects, younger players that are going to all peak at roughly the same time. That's how to win a cup - having $1MM players playing at a $6MM-$7MM level. For this reason I wouldn't mind keeping a guy like Stafford who is young and has size (where he could begin using it surrounded by Bruin type players) over the veterans like Roy, Pomminstein, Gaustad, Miller, Vanek. By the time we get our proverbial shite together those guys are going to be on their last legs. Keeping them will just perpetuate the mediocrity and have us fighting for 8th year after year. Why can't Stafford begin using his size now? GO SABRES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Why can't Stafford begin using his size now? GO SABRES!!! That would be ideal... but I think a lot of his softness can be attributed to the team's identity led by Pomminstein/Roy etc. More than anything I was just offering an idea as to how to rebuild, taking a gamble that Stafford can turn his game around surrounded by the type of players we want. That and I don't think you get anywhere close to the value you want if you trade him now. Basically, it's a calculated risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted January 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Why can't Stafford begin using his size now? GO SABRES!!! He can and he should (and I would say that even though he's not scoring this year, he does use his size not infrequently, although certainly not enough). I tend to agree with GoDD that with the right kind of teammates setting the right kind of example (like, say, Lucic, Recchi and Marchand instead of Pommer and Roy), we'd see a more aggressive and generally better Stafford. He should be able to do so on his own, to be sure, but it is what it is. I can't disagree if that disqualifies him from future membership on the team in the opinion of other posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Rhea Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Another point on Pommer: I don't think anyone "hates" him as one poster mentioned above. If he made $2.5MM and didn't wear a letter I'd be very happy with him. But there are 2 critical issues with him: 1. Trading him frees up a big chunk of cap room to bring in a really good player -- i.e. him plus Leopold gives you $8.3MM, which is enough for the #1 UFA pretty much every year. Also, he would probably bring back a pretty good pick or prospect in trade. 2. As a top 6 forward for the past 5 years and the current captain, he is part and parcel of the team's identity -- which at this point can only be described as soft, mentally weak and underachieving. As an example: Pommer was the closest or 2nd-closest skater to Lucic-Miller. Danny Gare would've immediately and without hesitation performed some hockey dentistry on Lucic. The same is true of Darcy Tucker, Ryan Callahan, Brenden Morrow, Brad Marchand, Mike Richards, and a dozen other top 6 forwards who are about Pommer's size. Pommer got shoved away and meekly went about his business. The team's identity needs to change. How about Barnaby or Peca? They would have taken up issue with Lucic. Pommer is bigger than both of them and way softer. The team reflects it's captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 He can and he should (and I would say that even though he's not scoring this year, he does use his size not infrequently, although certainly not enough). I tend to agree with GoDD that with the right kind of teammates setting the right kind of example (like, say, Lucic, Recchi and Marchand instead of Pommer and Roy), we'd see a more aggressive and generally better Stafford. He should be able to do so on his own, to be sure, but it is what it is. I can't disagree if that disqualifies him from future membership on the team in the opinion of other posters. I usually go by "Touched", but thanks for the shoutout ;) P.S. I just checked and GoDD didn't even post in this thread... :nana: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 That would be ideal... but I think a lot of his softness can be attributed to the team's identity led by Pomminstein/Roy etc. More than anything I was just offering an idea as to how to rebuild, taking a gamble that Stafford can turn his game around surrounded by the type of players we want. That and I don't think you get anywhere close to the value you want if you trade him now. Basically, it's a calculated risk. I can see what you're saying. And it would be a risk as you say. I just don't know if Stafford, being a guy that seemingly turns it on and off can be turned around to the point where it's "on" all the time. I'd love to believe that because when he puts his head down and works, he's an unstoppable force on the ice. We've all seen that. I honestly don't think he has a burning passion for the game. I'd be interested in knowing how he was in college, etc. Did he just turn it on and use his superior talent when he wanted or was he a consistent high-effort player? As for his trade value, I think you're right so I guess the time to trade him was this past off season. I don't think he'll ever reach that plateau given where he is now. How long do the Sabres have the luxury of waiting for his expected value to increase? I wish I knew. GO SABRES!!! He can and he should (and I would say that even though he's not scoring this year, he does use his size not infrequently, although certainly not enough). I tend to agree with GoDD that with the right kind of teammates setting the right kind of example (like, say, Lucic, Recchi and Marchand instead of Pommer and Roy), we'd see a more aggressive and generally better Stafford. He should be able to do so on his own, to be sure, but it is what it is. I can't disagree if that disqualifies him from future membership on the team in the opinion of other posters. I hear you but Stafford needs to set his OWN example, like you suggested. And if he can't (and I don't think he shows that he can) then he's got to go. Because like it or not, as an alternate C, his IS setting his own example. And it's not a good one. GO SABRES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted January 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 How about Barnaby or Peca? They would have taken up issue with Lucic. Pommer is bigger than both of them and way softer. The team reflects it's captain. Abso-freaken-lutely. I usually go by "Touched", but thanks for the shoutout ;) P.S. I just checked and GoDD didn't even post in this thread... :nana: You're right, but he's said this in the past. I think I'm in danger of becoming a disciple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Does anyone still think Miller is an elite goalie? I'm starting to feel like the concept of an 'elite goalie' in this league is dead. Is there really such a thing anymore? Is there a goalie in the league who's huge salary is justified by the impact he's having in the win column? Maybe the numbers prove it to be true somewhere but to me.. the game is different since the days of Roy, Hasek and Brodeur. Teams seem to do just as well with no name netminders. The Sabres sure do. The way i see it, if you're going to be paid the big bucks like miller, you have to be a difference maker on the same level as a adding a 40 or even 50 goal scorer to your roster. All that said, i'm not placing this seasons woes on Miller. He's just one of many issues... But at that salary, he's got steal games, regularly. At the rate Hasek did. Like an elite goalie. we've kicked this issue around a lot over the years -- here http://forums.sabres...s/page__st__-20 and here http://forums.sabres...993#entry259993 but your point above about how a guy getting miller's money needs to be a difference-maker a la a 40-goal scorer is well-taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I can see what you're saying. And it would be a risk as you say. I just don't know if Stafford, being a guy that seemingly turns it on and off can be turned around to the point where it's "on" all the time. I'd love to believe that because when he puts his head down and works, he's an unstoppable force on the ice. We've all seen that. I honestly don't think he has a burning passion for the game. I'd be interested in knowing how he was in college, etc. Did he just turn it on and use his superior talent when he wanted or was he a consistent high-effort player? As for his trade value, I think you're right so I guess the time to trade him was this past off season. I don't think he'll ever reach that plateau given where he is now. How long do the Sabres have the luxury of waiting for his expected value to increase? I wish I knew. GO SABRES!!! I hear you but Stafford needs to set his OWN example, like you suggested. And if he can't (and I don't think he shows that he can) then he's got to go. Because like it or not, as an alternate C, his IS setting his own example. And it's not a good one. GO SABRES!!! Again, let me say that I am by no means a Stafford fan. I can't stand his off and on effort on a nightly basis. But you can't dump everyone since you wont have any players, so keeping Stafford is a calculated risk that he has the talent and hasn't put it together consistently. Then when the team peaks and is ready to make a push, he will be a producing part of that team instead of another hole to fill. I'd also like to mention that this plan relies on being major sellers at the deadline and getting as much cap room/picks/prospects as possible for both expiring contracts (Hecht, Boyes, etc.) and high value veterans (Pommers, Vanek, etc.). If they aren't going to be contributing players in 2-3 years, then there is no point keeping them through this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyvegas Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I'd gander a guess (OMG I said gander) that Roy, Hasek and Brodeur were the inspiration for many of these young goalies to take up goaltending in the first place. Elite goalies do win big sometimes. Look at Thomas last year. he came up big. Is he elite? meh, he just caught fire the same time his team did. It's all got to come together at the same time or it won't get you very far Thomas is a great example of an 'elite' goalie. He's making 5Mil this year. Rask is making 1.5Mil. Rask has a better GAA and has won 10 of 15 games he's played. Couldn't the 5mil spent on Thomas be spend better elsewhere. Seems that #1 goalies just dont make as big a difference as thety used to. So long as you have a capable guy in there (aka not Lalime) you can have the same level of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabres1970 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I don't understand all the Pominville hate. The guy creates his chances. I could care less about his lack of physicality, that's not his game. We can't make and indictment on him as a captain because we don't see what goes on in that locker room. He's a "Guy that needs to be Gone"? Really? He's one of the most dedicated players and our team and, in case you haven't seen the stat sheet, also one of the most talented. Not may favorite Sabre of all time, but certainly a guy I'd want to build a team around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRobertEichel Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 The following 4 things need to happen ASAP to salvage the season (and perhaps the Buffalo careers of Regier and Ruff): 1. Boyes replaced with Kassian full-time. 2. Leopold replaced with McNabb full-time. 3. Roy replaced with a veteran gritty #2 scoring center with size and heart. 4. Hecht replaced with a true #1 center via some sort of trade involving these 4 aforementioned players to be jettisoned. I'm trying to be realistic here, so that is why I don't have us trading players like Leino, Stafford, and Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 You're right, but he's said this in the past. I think I'm in danger of becoming a disciple. Just pulling your leg - don't want to rock the boat of the veterans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbash Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 cannibalism is the inevitable outcome when you are stranded in a cold place with no hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I don't understand all the Pominville hate. The guy creates his chances. I could care less about his lack of physicality, that's not his game. We can't make and indictment on him as a captain because we don't see what goes on in that locker room. He's a "Guy that needs to be Gone"? Really? He's one of the most dedicated players and our team and, in case you haven't seen the stat sheet, also one of the most talented. Not may favorite Sabre of all time, but certainly a guy I'd want to build a team around. Next year Pomminstein will be 30 years old. If we are looking at a full rebuild, we have to A) give up someone with talent to get the future seguin/tavares type players and B) get value for any of the veterans that will be on the downslope of their careers in 2-3 years when the team is ready to win a cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbash Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Speaking of getting rid of personnel, lets say the Sabres die the death on the upcoming, extended road trip, and Ruff gets the axe -- who are the candidates to replace him? Which available coaches out there would feel like an upgrade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I don't understand all the Pominville hate. The guy creates his chances. I could care less about his lack of physicality, that's not his game. We can't make and indictment on him as a captain because we don't see what goes on in that locker room. He's a "Guy that needs to be Gone"? Really? He's one of the most dedicated players and our team and, in case you haven't seen the stat sheet, also one of the most talented. Not may favorite Sabre of all time, but certainly a guy I'd want to build a team around. Although I recognize he's having a big year and is a very solid two-way positional player, I've never been a big Pommer fan given his $5.3 million cap hit for three reasons: (1) As you mentioned, he is not physical. He has only 16 hits in 43 games, which is among the worst on the team that is 28th out of 30 in hits. (2) IMHO, he is reliant on others for his scoring chances. I consider him to be what in the NBA would be considered a "spot up" shooter. He finds the right spot on the ice and waits for the puck to get to him before firing it home. He is not someone who can regularly create his own offense by beating defenders one-on-one (Vanek and even Drew can do this). (3) He is not strong on the puck. I'm not saying I hate Pommer and certainly all teams need guys like him, but when I look at Pommer I don't think "blood, sweat, and tears" kind of player. I don't think "gifted offensive #1 line talent." And, I just can't quite see him being a Stanley Cup winning captain like a Toews or Chara or Crosby or Lidstrom. So is he a guy you want to spend $5.3 million on? I respect that there is a lot of difference of opinion about that on this board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbash Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I know he's long retired, but can you imagine how fast this current roster's head would spin if they were subjected to Scotty Bowman's mind games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I've seen a couple posts mentioning Leopold. Why is he suddenly a problem? He was brought in to provide an offensive option on the blueline and he has actually exceeded his expectations. If you want to look for problems with this team, the only way his name should show up is if you mention that only 4 forwards have more goals than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I've seen a couple posts mentioning Leopold. Why is he suddenly a problem? He was brought in to provide an offensive option on the blueline and he has actually exceeded his expectations. If you want to look for problems with this team, the only way his name should show up is if you mention that only 4 forwards have more goals than him. +1 I know he's long retired, but can you imagine how fast this current roster's head would spin if they were subjected to Scotty Bowman's mind games? I can see it now, Roy crying in the fetal position of his three person glass shower while wearing his wrestling costume. We don't need a coach, we need Reg Dunlop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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