bunomatic Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 I totally agree with this post... goalies are a dime a dozen nowadays... there aren't many Martin Brodeur's out there that can single handedly win the Cup. Unfortunately, Ryan Miller is a very overrated goalie. We are still in rebuild mode as far as I am concerned. This current roster, even with some quality upgrades still will be middle of the pack at best in the Eastern Conference. I would not be heartbroken to see Miller traded away for picks/prospects. There were a couple young guns on the flyers I'd take in trade for Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss_The_Amerks Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Young goalies who will get big paydays soon... Sometimes I think it's okay to try out the young guy who's been playing well, and doesn't require a huge paycheck. I wish we had someone like that in our organization.... *hmphhh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Except when you don't have the firepower and/or shut down defense. Then you need the big ticket goalie. I'm not a Miller disciple, but I'd love to see a swap with one of your aforementioned cost-friendly netminders. That is the entire point. It's a trade off. You use the money saved build up the forwards and blueline. It would be great to have all three, the Cap makes it difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 All 3 Vezina candidates still alive. And let's not forget the nice extensions that Howard and Niemi have signed this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 All 3 Vezina candidates still alive. And let's not forget the nice extensions that Howard and Niemi have signed this season. What a difference a year makes. Last season all three Vezina Finalist were ousted in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 That is the entire point. It's a trade off. You use the money saved build up the forwards and blueline. It would be great to have all three, the Cap makes it difficult. This tradeoff does get overstated a bit, though. It's not "you can have Miller plus a bunch of mediocre forwards and defensemen or you can have Leighton plus a totally stacked lineup of forwards and defensmen." The Flyers could have had Miller plus Briere, Richards, Hartnell, Van Riemsdyke, Zherdev, Lapperriere, Giroux, Leino, Carcillo, Shelley, Powe, Nodl, Betts, Timonen, Pronger, Meszaros, Carle, Coburn, O'Donnell, Bartulus, and Bobrovsky for a total cap hit of $58.8M. So, one higher caliber forward, Carter, goes out, everyone shifts up, and a low cost player fills in at the bottom. They still have their top-notch defense and a very potent offense, though slightly weaker, but better goaltending. That is much less of a tradeoff than everyone seems to imply. It's much more about finding the right players at the right prices and about careful timing with your youth (e.g., Giroux goes from $0.822M to $3.75M cap hit next year.) If you get a strong core, including or not including a top-$ goalie, then add some great value (veterans or entry-level) players around them, your team will be strong. Yes, the Sabres chose to have that top-$ goalie, but they haven't done as well at the rest of the game. If you look at our 1970 sibling, they have also chosen to have a high-$ goalie, but have done much better at the rest of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 This tradeoff does get overstated a bit, though. It's not "you can have Miller plus a bunch of mediocre forwards and defensemen or you can have Leighton plus a totally stacked lineup of forwards and defensmen." The Flyers could have had Miller plus Briere, Richards, Hartnell, Van Riemsdyke, Zherdev, Lapperriere, Giroux, Leino, Carcillo, Shelley, Powe, Nodl, Betts, Timonen, Pronger, Meszaros, Carle, Coburn, O'Donnell, Bartulus, and Bobrovsky for a total cap hit of $58.8M. So, one higher caliber forward, Carter, goes out, everyone shifts up, and a low cost player fills in at the bottom. They still have their top-notch defense and a very potent offense, though slightly weaker, but better goaltending. That is much less of a tradeoff than everyone seems to imply. It's much more about finding the right players at the right prices and about careful timing with your youth (e.g., Giroux goes from $0.822M to $3.75M cap hit next year.) If you get a strong core, including or not including a top-$ goalie, then add some great value (veterans or entry-level) players around them, your team will be strong. Yes, the Sabres chose to have that top-$ goalie, but they haven't done as well at the rest of the game. If you look at our 1970 sibling, they have also chosen to have a high-$ goalie, but have done much better at the rest of it. Wait, you mean it's actually much more complicated than simply ditching your high priced goalie and replacing him with the elite shutdown D-men who apparently grow on trees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 What a difference a year makes. Last season all three Vezina Finalist were ousted in the first round. So what you're saying is Veznia-caliber, and generally high-priced, goalies don't have any correlation to playoff success. Doesn't that kinda shoot down your argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 This tradeoff does get overstated a bit, though. It's not "you can have Miller plus a bunch of mediocre forwards and defensemen or you can have Leighton plus a totally stacked lineup of forwards and defensmen." The Flyers could have had Miller plus Briere, Richards, Hartnell, Van Riemsdyke, Zherdev, Lapperriere, Giroux, Leino, Carcillo, Shelley, Powe, Nodl, Betts, Timonen, Pronger, Meszaros, Carle, Coburn, O'Donnell, Bartulus, and Bobrovsky for a total cap hit of $58.8M. So, one higher caliber forward, Carter, goes out, everyone shifts up, and a low cost player fills in at the bottom. They still have their top-notch defense and a very potent offense, though slightly weaker, but better goaltending. That is much less of a tradeoff than everyone seems to imply. It's much more about finding the right players at the right prices and about careful timing with your youth (e.g., Giroux goes from $0.822M to $3.75M cap hit next year.) If you get a strong core, including or not including a top-$ goalie, then add some great value (veterans or entry-level) players around them, your team will be strong. Yes, the Sabres chose to have that top-$ goalie, but they haven't done as well at the rest of the game. If you look at our 1970 sibling, they have also chosen to have a high-$ goalie, but have done much better at the rest of it. Well stated. Wait, you mean it's actually much more complicated than simply ditching your high priced goalie and replacing him with the elite shutdown D-men who apparently grow on trees? And another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 If Boston plays Vancouver will there be a "I guess I was wrong" thread? Of course Luongo was pulled in 2 games and didn't start a 3rd in the first round - so you might still have to put an asterick on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Sometimes I think it's okay to try out the young guy who's been playing well, and doesn't require a huge paycheck. I wish we had someone like that in our organization.... *hmphhh* You do realize that Detroit only switched to Howard because Osgood and Hasek weren't getting it done anymore, right? And Crawford in Chicago happened because Turco is washed up. Yet Chicago obviously felt it wanted to start the season with a veteran goaltender. These are teams forced to play young goaltenders out of necessity. Howard is 27 and spent 4 seasons in the AHL post-college before getting the call full time. Crawford is also 27 and spent 5 seasons in the AHL after his time in the Q. Enroth is ALMOST 23. And was in his 3rd AHL season as of this year. If we want to look at young goalies who have been brought up and taken the load of duties, then look at Jonathan Quick in LA. He's 25. Spent 1 full year in the AHL before coming up to the NHL. He has played extremely well, but has also suffered some inconsistency and Jonathan Bernier has filled in nicely when Quick struggles. Chicago and Detroit haven't had these problems with the more experienced Crawford and Howard. Cory Schneider of Vancouver is another example of a goaltender who might have been a little too early in the NHL, but in his case, isn't being forced to play a full workload. After his time at BC, the now 25 year old Schneider played three full seasons in the AHL before coming up and playing 25 games for Vancouver this year. He's good. And he's close to being a full time NHL goaltender. But I doubt with Luongo around that Vancouver is going to rush him. So yes, we have Enroth waiting in the wings. But if we can learn something from other teams, it's that there is no reason to rush him into action when we have Miller. Let Enroth get the same kind of action next season that Schneider has gotten with Vancouver and maybe in a year or two it will be time to let Miller go to another team. I just don't see the need to rush Enroth into a full time gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 You do realize that Detroit only switched to Howard because Osgood and Hasek weren't getting it done anymore, right? And Crawford in Chicago happened because Turco is washed up. Yet Chicago obviously felt it wanted to start the season with a veteran goaltender. These are teams forced to play young goaltenders out of necessity. Howard is 27 and spent 4 seasons in the AHL post-college before getting the call full time. Crawford is also 27 and spent 5 seasons in the AHL after his time in the Q. Enroth is ALMOST 23. And was in his 3rd AHL season as of this year. If we want to look at young goalies who have been brought up and taken the load of duties, then look at Jonathan Quick in LA. He's 25. Spent 1 full year in the AHL before coming up to the NHL. He has played extremely well, but has also suffered some inconsistency and Jonathan Bernier has filled in nicely when Quick struggles. Chicago and Detroit haven't had these problems with the more experienced Crawford and Howard. Cory Schneider of Vancouver is another example of a goaltender who might have been a little too early in the NHL, but in his case, isn't being forced to play a full workload. After his time at BC, the now 25 year old Schneider played three full seasons in the AHL before coming up and playing 25 games for Vancouver this year. He's good. And he's close to being a full time NHL goaltender. But I doubt with Luongo around that Vancouver is going to rush him. So yes, we have Enroth waiting in the wings. But if we can learn something from other teams, it's that there is no reason to rush him into action when we have Miller. Let Enroth get the same kind of action next season that Schneider has gotten with Vancouver and maybe in a year or two it will be time to let Miller go to another team. I just don't see the need to rush Enroth into a full time gig. ^THIS! :clapping: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 I just posted a comparison of goaltenders salaries of those still in the playoffs, along with cap spending and total spent on defence in the Miller thread. all of the teams left in the playoffs spend about twice as much as Buffalo on defence (except Nashville which spends about the difference between what Buffalo spends on goalies to what nashville spends on defence, which is $4 million). Also note that almost all of the teams left, the ones going low budget on goaltending, have a rotation of low cost goalies, not just one, and alot of them are going to be up for some raises when their contracts come up. Even Boston has 2 very good goaltenders and they spend about the same as Buffalo on them. But hey, why not get rid of Miller now so he can do like hasek and win a cup elsewhere, then we can start our new saviour with under 15 career NHL starts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Our goalie situation now and for another 2-3 years is the least of my worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frisky Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Aren't 3 of those guys Vezina finalists who will get big bumps in pay? Wouldn't Luongo be considered a big ticket goalie? Any of that list isn't Niemi the only one with a Stanley Cup? I must be in the minority. I think if you got a guy who's legimate you should hold on and ride him 'til you can't ride him anymore. I'm not sold on Enroth being a No. 1 guy although he has shown substantial improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 but it should be the biggest, teams with actual superstar talent elsewhere in their lineup have gotten further in the playoffs then buffalo with cheap goaltending Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 So what you're saying is Veznia-caliber, and generally high-priced, goalies don't have any correlation to playoff success. Doesn't that kinda shoot down your argument? It didn't last season, just look at Miller and the two other Vezina finalists. It is interesting that the three "big ticket" goalies out of the eight happen to be the Vezina finalists. It will also be interesting to see which of the three make it to the Conference finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 It didn't last season, just look at Miller and the two other Vezina finalists. It is interesting that the three "big ticket" goalies out of the eight happen to be the Vezina finalists. It will also be interesting to see which of the three make it to the Conference finals. One will be out by design with Rinne vs Loungo coming up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Loungo and Tim Thomas??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Loungo and Tim Thomas??? Would someone like to analyze the defense numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloSoldier2010 Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 but it should be the biggest, teams with actual superstar talent elsewhere in their lineup have gotten further in the playoffs then buffalo with cheap goaltending when you find a team willing to trade several superstars that we can put up in front in exchange for miller, lemme know. The problem is that darcy has paid too much for other players. Teams like vancouver and boston have proven that you can have that top tier goalie and the rest of the supporting cast needed to be successful. Wait... hahaha well what do ya know it looks like the finals are going to be between those very two teams this year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skibum Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Let's revisit this post, shall we? Who's left in the hunt right now? Luongo, Thomas, and Roloson (as of my writing this). Roloson has been pretty bad of late and was a major factor in two losses. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 'Ning are done in the ECF. That leaves Thomas and Luongo, the only goalies on your list making $5mil or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Loungo and Tim Thomas??? When was the last time two Vezina finalist met in the Stanley Cup finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 When was the last time two Vezina finalist met in the Stanley Cup finals. 1999 was the Vezina Winner vs. the Jennings Winner, does that count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Let's revisit this post, shall we? Who's left in the hunt right now? Luongo, Thomas, and Roloson (as of my writing this). Roloson has been pretty bad of late and was a major factor in two losses. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 'Ning are done in the ECF. That leaves Thomas and Luongo, the only goalies on your list making $5mil or more. However in a Luongo vs. Thomas finals Deluca still gets to be half right in his world because while one high priced goalie wins the cup, the other loses and his teams season was a "failure". <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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