Billfold100 Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 The salaries for the goalies that backstopped their teams to the second round. Roberto Luongo - $5.3 mil Tim Thomas - $5.0 mil Pekka Rinne - $3.4 mil Dwayne Roloson - $2.5 mil Antti Niemi - $2.0 mil Brian Boucher - $925k Michal Neuvirth - $765k Jimmy Howard - $$717k I know many will disagree, IMO this is the continuation of the trend that shows you don't need the big ticket goalie. I think Flyers fans would disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 When was the last time two Vezina finalist met in the Stanley Cup finals. Good question. I don't think it has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Thomas has given up 5 goals in 4 of the 6 games against TB - so I guess as long as he wins games 7 it doesn't matter. So can you really say goaltending has been the important factor in the series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted May 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 However in a Luongo vs. Thomas finals Deluca still gets to be half right in his world because while one high priced goalie wins the cup, the other loses and his teams season was a "failure". <_< I thought you where going to say it was because they are both better than Miller :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted May 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 I think Flyers fans would disagree. Only the ones that forget Pronger was injured. My point is to go cheaper at goal so you can spend elsewhere. Part of that elsewhere for the Flyers was Pronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Only the ones that forget Pronger was injured. My point is to go cheaper at goal so you can spend elsewhere. Part of that elsewhere for the Flyers was Pronger. #1 Injuries are part of the game, and 36yo defensemen occasionally get hurt, no matter how much they are paid. #2 They had 5 Defensemen over $3M, they could have afforded a top 10 goalie and pronger. They gave up goaltending for Brayden Coburn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 My point is to go cheaper at goal so you can spend elsewhere. Part of that elsewhere for the Flyers was Pronger. No, no, if you want to count Pronger, then that would be all of the difference. $4.9 million versus one of our young kids (Sekera, Butler, or Weber) would be all of the difference between Miller and a lower tier goaltender. Next year, it will be worse, when his cap hit is about the same as Miller's. That means that we still don't have the rest of their defense or stacked offense. Each team has room for five or six bigger salaries. We had Miller, Vanek, Pommer, Connolly, Roy, and Hecht last year, not to mention a few million in cap space that could have been used with a different owner (which we now have), while the Flyers had Pronger, Timonen, Briere, Carter, Richards, Hartnell, and Meszaros. The problem isn't solved by swapping Miller and lesser forward/defenseman for a cheap goalie and a higher quality forward. Look at Vancouver, who is playing for the Cup; they have Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Luongo, Hamhuis, Ballard, and Bieksa. This discussion goes round-and-round. No, you don't need a high-priced, top-tier goalie to win the Cup. Yes, you can build a Cup-winning team with a top-tier goalie. No, having a top-tier goalie does not mean that you have a good team. There isn't one way to build a team. Good teams with good goaltenders are going far; bad teams with good goaltenders are not. Very good teams with weaker goaltenders are also going far, while mediocre teams with bad goaltenders are going nowhere. $55 million (give or take) of cap space is plenty to build a team around Miller that is capable of winning the Cup, but the rest of the pieces need to be strong and fairly priced (see Vancouver.) Those other teams with $2-3M goaltenders that have done well have spent the other $50-something million a lot better than the Sabres have, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 No, no, if you want to count Pronger, then that would be all of the difference. $4.9 million versus one of our young kids (Sekera, Butler, or Weber) would be all of the difference between Miller and a lower tier goaltender. Next year, it will be worse, when his cap hit is about the same as Miller's. That means that we still don't have the rest of their defense or stacked offense. The problem isn't solved by swapping Miller and lesser forward/defenseman for a cheap goalie and a higher quality forward. Look at Vancouver, who is playing for the Cup; they have Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Luongo, Hamhuis, Ballard, and Bieksa. This discussion goes round-and-round. No, you don't need a high-priced, top-tier goalie to win the Cup. Yes, you can build a Cup-winning team with a top-tier goalie. No, having a top-tier goalie does not mean that you have a good team. There isn't one way to build a team. Good teams with good goaltenders are going far; bad teams with good goaltenders are not. Very good teams with weaker goaltenders are also going far, while mediocre teams with bad goaltenders are going nowhere. $55 million (give or take) of cap space is plenty to build a team around Miller that is capable of winning the Cup, but the rest of the pieces need to be strong and fairly priced (see Vancouver.) Those other teams with $2-3M goaltenders that have done well have spent the other $50-something million a lot better than the Sabres have, too. I agree with all of this. But this... Each team has room for five or six bigger salaries. We had Miller, Vanek, Pommer, Connolly, Roy, and Hecht last year, ...., while the Flyers had Pronger, Timonen, Briere, Carter, Richards, Hartnell, and Meszaros. just makes me want to cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 No, no, if you want to count Pronger, then that would be all of the difference. $4.9 million versus one of our young kids (Sekera, Butler, or Weber) would be all of the difference between Miller and a lower tier goaltender. Next year, it will be worse, when his cap hit is about the same as Miller's. That means that we still don't have the rest of their defense or stacked offense. Each team has room for five or six bigger salaries. We had Miller, Vanek, Pommer, Connolly, Roy, and Hecht last year, not to mention a few million in cap space that could have been used with a different owner (which we now have), while the Flyers had Pronger, Timonen, Briere, Carter, Richards, Hartnell, and Meszaros. The problem isn't solved by swapping Miller and lesser forward/defenseman for a cheap goalie and a higher quality forward. Look at Vancouver, who is playing for the Cup; they have Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Luongo, Hamhuis, Ballard, and Bieksa. This discussion goes round-and-round. No, you don't need a high-priced, top-tier goalie to win the Cup. Yes, you can build a Cup-winning team with a top-tier goalie. No, having a top-tier goalie does not mean that you have a good team. There isn't one way to build a team. Good teams with good goaltenders are going far; bad teams with good goaltenders are not. Very good teams with weaker goaltenders are also going far, while mediocre teams with bad goaltenders are going nowhere. $55 million (give or take) of cap space is plenty to build a team around Miller that is capable of winning the Cup, but the rest of the pieces need to be strong and fairly priced (see Vancouver.) Those other teams with $2-3M goaltenders that have done well have spent the other $50-something million a lot better than the Sabres have, too. Excellent analysis. I agree with all of this. But this... just makes me want to cry. Scary when you look at it like that. Lindy wants to make Hecht captain and I want them to send him to the minors if they can't trade him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Scary when you look at it like that. Lindy wants to make Hecht captain and I want them to send him to the minors if they can't trade him. Before or after we play a game in his hometown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted May 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 No, no, if you want to count Pronger, then that would be all of the difference. $4.9 million versus one of our young kids (Sekera, Butler, or Weber) would be all of the difference between Miller and a lower tier goaltender. Next year, it will be worse, when his cap hit is about the same as Miller's. That means that we still don't have the rest of their defense or stacked offense. Each team has room for five or six bigger salaries. We had Miller, Vanek, Pommer, Connolly, Roy, and Hecht last year, not to mention a few million in cap space that could have been used with a different owner (which we now have), while the Flyers had Pronger, Timonen, Briere, Carter, Richards, Hartnell, and Meszaros. The problem isn't solved by swapping Miller and lesser forward/defenseman for a cheap goalie and a higher quality forward. Look at Vancouver, who is playing for the Cup; they have Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Luongo, Hamhuis, Ballard, and Bieksa. This discussion goes round-and-round. No, you don't need a high-priced, top-tier goalie to win the Cup. Yes, you can build a Cup-winning team with a top-tier goalie. No, having a top-tier goalie does not mean that you have a good team. There isn't one way to build a team. Good teams with good goaltenders are going far; bad teams with good goaltenders are not. Very good teams with weaker goaltenders are also going far, while mediocre teams with bad goaltenders are going nowhere. $55 million (give or take) of cap space is plenty to build a team around Miller that is capable of winning the Cup, but the rest of the pieces need to be strong and fairly priced (see Vancouver.) Those other teams with $2-3M goaltenders that have done well have spent the other $50-something million a lot better than the Sabres have, too. I don't know where you got the idea I thought moving Miller is all the team needs. To turn around the Sabres moving Miller is just one piece of the puzzle. I like that you did bring up the Canucks. Looking at their contracts shows what a poor job Regier has done. It's hard to believe a Ryan Kesler makes less than Pominville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 I don't know where you got the idea I thought moving Miller is all the team needs. To turn around the Sabres moving Miller is just one piece of the puzzle. I like that you did bring up the Canucks. Looking at their contracts shows what a poor job Regier has done. It's hard to believe a Ryan Kesler makes less than Pominville. Not really a reflection on Regier or 29 other teams. IIRC the NHLPA wasn't too happy with Kesler when after he signed his contract and publicly encouraged his teammates to take discounts too so that they could create a dynasty. Credit Mike Gillis though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 I don't know where you got the idea I thought moving Miller is all the team needs. To turn around the Sabres moving Miller is just one piece of the puzzle. I like that you did bring up the Canucks. Looking at their contracts shows what a poor job Regier has done. It's hard to believe a Ryan Kesler makes less than Pominville. We completely agree on the rest of it, but you and others seem to imply that moving Miller gets you a lot further toward fixing the rest of it than it actually will. My point is that you can make all the rest of the changes that you have in mind, but not swap Miller for one more good forward/defenseman and still have a top-level team. You aren't going to get top return for Miller because of the size of his contract and the cap position of most teams, so I have feeling that if you make all of those other moves, you might end up just as well or better by not moving Miller for one more improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 Not really a reflection on Regier or 29 other teams. IIRC the NHLPA wasn't too happy with Kesler when after he signed his contract and publicly encouraged his teammates to take discounts too so that they could create a dynasty. Credit Mike Gillis though. Some Vancouver players are willing to take the discount to live and play in one of if not the most desirable markets in North America. The Canucks made that their mantra when Gillis became G.M. so as to attract players( and their wives) to the city of Vancouver. They also expanded the player facilities, and became involved in everything from the sleep patterns of their players to their diets ( offseason as well as inseason ), and fostered a family atmosphere among other team building initiatives. If some of this sounds familiar it is thanks to Black and Pegula. I don't know if Buffalo will ever be as desirable to live and play as Vancouver( I've never been to Buffalo so I won't judge ) but the other things the ownership is doing can't hurt in the long run. Now if Regier could only make his defence the most mobile 'D' in the league I believe we'd be on our way to the promised land and become known as hockey heaven as Black is fond of calling it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted May 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 We completely agree on the rest of it, but you and others seem to imply that moving Miller gets you a lot further toward fixing the rest of it than it actually will. My point is that you can make all the rest of the changes that you have in mind, but not swap Miller for one more good forward/defenseman and still have a top-level team. You aren't going to get top return for Miller because of the size of his contract and the cap position of most teams, so I have feeling that if you make all of those other moves, you might end up just as well or better by not moving Miller for one more improvement. I said previously that there are only a handful of teams that would be interested in Miller. I am also not of the mind set to move Miller at any cost. A Miller trade IMO needs to accomplish two things: A) Bring a huge return of players to step right in and improve the roster or at least enough quality assets that can be combined with the assets the Sabres already have to be used in separate deals. B) Change the "core" of this team. The "core" as it stands right now is nowhere good enough to lead this team to a Stanley Cup. Nothing will change if this team continues to overvalue it's own players (Stafford) and continue to rotate players through the third in fourth lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted May 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 Some Vancouver players are willing to take the discount to live and play in one of if not the most desirable markets in North America. The Canucks made that their mantra when Gillis became G.M. so as to attract players( and their wives) to the city of Vancouver. They also expanded the player facilities, and became involved in everything from the sleep patterns of their players to their diets ( offseason as well as inseason ), and fostered a family atmosphere among other team building initiatives. If some of this sounds familiar it is thanks to Black and Pegula. I don't know if Buffalo will ever be as desirable to live and play as Vancouver( I've never been to Buffalo so I won't judge ) but the other things the ownership is doing can't hurt in the long run. Now if Regier could only make his defence the most mobile 'D' in the league I believe we'd be on our way to the promised land and become known as hockey heaven as Black is fond of calling it. The Canucks have also not been afraid of the big move. Acquiring a player of the level of Luongo was a huge move and one that Regier could never even comprehend let alone execute. Not to mention the job Brian Burke did of acquiring the Sedins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 The Canucks have also not been afraid of the big move. Acquiring a player of the level of Luongo was a huge move and one that Regier could never even comprehend let alone execute. Not to mention the job Brian Burke did of acquiring the Sedins. I totally agree. I'm not really sure if the canucks are winning because of Luongo. He is good but I believe has always been over rated and one of the few goalies to get star status before he'd accomplished anything. If the Canucks win the cup I suppose its warranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 I like that you did bring up the Canucks. Looking at their contracts shows what a poor job Regier has done. It's hard to believe a Ryan Kesler makes less than Pominville. Not really a reflection on Regier or 29 other teams. IIRC the NHLPA wasn't too happy with Kesler when after he signed his contract and publicly encouraged his teammates to take discounts too so that they could create a dynasty.Credit Mike Gillis though. I said previously that there are only a handful of teams that would be interested in Miller. I am also not of the mind set to move Miller at any cost. A Miller trade IMO needs to accomplish two things:A) Bring a huge return of players to step right in and improve the roster or at least enough quality assets that can be combined with the assets the Sabres already have to be used in separate deals. B) Change the "core" of this team. The "core" as it stands right now is nowhere good enough to lead this team to a Stanley Cup. Nothing will change if this team continues to overvalue it's own players (Stafford) and continue to rotate players through the third in fourth lines. See look at all this. If we are creating hockey heaven than it would make sense that drew would sign for a less, home town discount to stay. If not than we are not creating hockey heaven. Hell would freeze over before I as GM would sign F!!!king drew stafford to Booby Ryan/Ryan Kesler money... IDC if they were discounts its time we get some discounts because we all know miller gets paid what he does because he stayed for the money, no fault of his but players still like to win. Vanek was regier waiting to freaking long. Pommers is overpaid by about 500k but I could live with that. You wanna change the core and the culture stop letting players screw over the whole team. I feel that Myers,ennis and those younger guys will take small discounts (10-15%) below market to stay here. There is a fundamental problem with paying drew 5mil or even 4. Hes inconsistant, only has 1 season to point to, we claim we are building hockey heaven but that implies the best practices and the best most deserving players not lazy guys who want big money for a whopping 52pt season... A whole 3 points more than Ennis who honeslty contributed to Drews season by shoveling pucks cross crease for easier shots. Rene Bourque is the standard and player I hold drew 2 and last year he signed for 3.3mil a season so drew should get no more than 3.75 and just because he is getting into his UFA years does not mean hes earned a huge payday. I'll tell you what you have a player pulling that stunt, what you do is you sign him for what he wants and trade him to the basement of the league for whatever you can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 The Canucks have also not been afraid of the big move. Acquiring a player of the level of Luongo was a huge move and one that Regier could never even comprehend let alone execute. Not to mention the job Brian Burke did of acquiring the Sedins. Burke is responsible for getting the second one. Gillis for keeping them as UFA's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 As for Goalies.......Tim Thomas will have to stand on his head and spin plates on his skates to win this series. Boston is vulnerable to speed......Vancouver has it just about everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Hate to rehash this thread, but that game 1 was quite a showing for both goalies, pretty much perfect play won that game ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Hate to rehash this thread, but that game 1 was quite a showing for both goalies, pretty much perfect play won that game ..... Trade Miller now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Trade Miller now. Ill give you a shrubbery, 3 bags of spiced jelly beans and a timmy hos large triple triple for miller anddddd, jean-luc grand pierre Do we have a deal?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Ill give you a shrubbery, 3 bags of spiced jelly beans and a timmy hos large triple triple for miller anddddd, jean-luc grand pierre Do we have a deal?!?! Are you crazy? That fantasy site has Miller ranked 16th. No way you should be throwing in those jelly beans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Ill give you a shrubbery, 3 2 bags of spiced jelly beans and a timmy hos large medium triple triple for miller anddddd, jean-luc grand pierre Do we have a deal?!?! Better, weave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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