Golisano selling the team?

[Kristian]

MAybe..Bandwagon to me is a person who never even watched a sabre game before and as soon as they are the ticket buying all the gear..Thats what I would call a bandwagon fan...I could be off base though..

 

You mean like 78% of those "rowdy Caniacs"

[wjag]

MAybe..Bandwagon to me is a person who never even watched a sabre game before and as soon as they are the ticket buying all the gear..Thats what I would call a bandwagon fan...I could be off base though..

I think we are all bandwagon fans..

[nucci]

I just heard some games will be played at Paul Hamilton's house.

 

Seriously, you have to wonder if the rumblings have unnerved the players a bit. For some of these guys, it has to be a flashback to 02.

I think the players would not be affected as much. Back then, there were missing or late paychecks. That is not the issue this time.

[wjag]

Jeez what's next... Bison's Bolt Buffalo.... This just in, Buffalo City hall has relocated to Erie PA where real estate and taxes are cheaper.. Mayor will manage city affairs by telecon... Niagara Falls USA separtists have made a plan to incorporate with their brethren in Niagara Falls Canada stating no way a river should separate them. In a cost cutting move, Albany lets them go...

[nfreeman]

you know, i find myself contemplating a sort of faustian bargain whereby we would take on an owner who's a billionaire hockey fantatic who would spend to a loss in order to pursue a cup, and, in exchange, would for the time being take 3-5 games to hamilton per year (i would foresee maybe 3 saturday night games against canadian opponents) and would present some additional level of uncertainty on a go-forward basis.

 

not saying it's a deal worth taking, but damn it, i find myself thinking about it.

Good post. I've been thinking the same thing. The idea of us suddenly being in the mix for key free agents/trades, etc... It's tantalizing. The problem is that while it's currently hard to see the NHL letting him move the team to Hamilton, who knows what will be in 3-5 years?

[tom webster]

I don't disagree with any of this, I guess I just carry less of a stigma with the word bandwagon than you. I've noticed the vanishing fandom in fanboys that I work with.

 

 

As ticket prices have sky rocketed, most cities have become "bandwagon" fandoms. Gone are the days of blind loyalty worship. When a fan spends his paycheck on one game, he becomes much more discerning then years past.

[Claude Balls]

Welcome to Buffalo NY, home of the Bandits and Bisons. Has a nice ring to it.

 

Golisano selling the team would not surprise me one bit. He knows the value is just going to decrease. He didn't become a billionaire out of his garage because he is stupid.

[tom webster]

Passionate or not, I have a hard time seeing any new owner buying the Sabres and spending all the way to the cap. The amount of cash that can be wrung out of the WNY market is limited. My guess is that current management has done a good job of getting very close to that limit. There just isn't much left, and the pot is shrinking, not growing, as the national and regional economy continues to contract. So that means that spending to the cap would result in multi-million dollar losses, which I don't see anyone willing to subsidize on an ongoing basis.

 

Billionaires make $200 million investments based on what they think they will make when they are ready to sell. Nobody is going to have to subsidize anything. TG says this team is in the black and you can bet he hasn't contributed one more dollar out of his personal bank account to keep the team a float. He is about to turn what was anywhere from a $20 million to $60 million investment (depending on who you believe*) into somewhere near $200 million. He could have spent upwards of $25 million per year and still done better then any of his other investments. That doesn't even take into account any of the substantial write offs or other benefits he received from owning the team.

You add into it that a guy like Balsillie spends his life dreaming about holding that Cup and the money is actually irrelevant.

 

* It is believed by those that should be in the know that his actual investment was somewhere near $32 million with an additional $10 million line of credit put up during the lockout. The rest of the purchase price was actually assumed debt that was paid back through future team revenues.

[PASabreFan]

Welcome to Buffalo NY, home of the Bandits and Bisons. Has a nice ring to it.

 

Golisano selling the team would not surprise me one bit. He knows the value is just going to decrease. He didn't become a billionaire out of his garage because he is stupid.

 

The value has gone up significantly since he bought the team, as Tom points out. Now, this might be the right time to sell, who knows? I just wonder why you think a. the team's value will drop and b. the team will leave town.

[PASabreFan]

You add into it that a guy like Balsillie spends his life dreaming about holding that Cup and the money is actually irrelevant.

 

I asked earlier -- does he dream about holding a Cup, or holding a Cup in Hamilton? I'm trying to figure out if I should have a man crush on the guy.

[nfreeman]

Billionaires make $200 million investments based on what they think they will make when they are ready to sell. Nobody is going to have to subsidize anything. TG says this team is in the black and you can bet he hasn't contributed one more dollar out of his personal bank account to keep the team a float. He is about to turn what was anywhere from a $20 million to $60 million investment (depending on who you believe*) into somewhere near $200 million. He could have spent upwards of $25 million per year and still done better then any of his other investments. That doesn't even take into account any of the substantial write offs or other benefits he received from owning the team.

You add into it that a guy like Balsillie spends his life dreaming about holding that Cup and the money is actually irrelevant.

 

* It is believed by those that should be in the know that his actual investment was somewhere near $32 million with an additional $10 million line of credit put up during the lockout. The rest of the purchase price was actually assumed debt that was paid back through future team revenues.

Yes, but a business that loses $5-$10MM per year is worth much less upon resale than one that is break-even or profitable. Assuming the Sabres are break-even with no playoffs (which may or may not be true, but it's probably close), then every dollar they spend to get closer to the cap is a dollar of losses, unless it helps them into a long playoff run.

 

In addition, if someone buys the team for $200MM, (or $150MM, or whatever), a significant amount of that price is going to be borrowed money -- so if that costs $10-$15MM in interest per year, this is a significant additional operating cost that has to be, yes, subsidized. If Balsillie or some other billionaire wants to do so, great, but I'm skeptical. Warren Buffet wouldn't flush $10MM per year down the drain, Golisano isn't interested in doing so, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do so either.

 

I'm sure that IF TG sells, he will make a handsome profit, but he funded significant operating losses for several years before the team broke even. He took a real risk and is getting rewarded. Nuttin' wrong with that.

[sabresfaninbaltimoremd]

They discussed this story:

 

http://rochesterhomepage.net/content/fulltext/?cid=51451

 

Maybe the Bills planted the story in order to get our minds off of how dreadful their season has turned out!!!!!

[Claude Balls]

The value has gone up significantly since he bought the team, as Tom points out. Now, this might be the right time to sell, who knows? I just wonder why you think a. the team's value will drop and b. the team will leave town.

Do you have proof that the value has gone up "significantly"? Even Golisano has stated that the team needs to make it into the third round of the playoffs just to see a profit. They are still losing money.

 

1. a)The economy. b) The piss poor play of late and with no sight of anything changing to make the team better isn't going to lure many buyers that would be willing to keep the team in Buffalo, meaning a new buyer is going to have to shell out some coin to put a winning team on the ice to have a chance at making a profit. Is that going to really happen in Buffalo? I would hope so, but I wouldn't bank on it.

 

2. Who, realistically, is going to be able to buy the team and be able to keep them in Buffalo and spend what needs to be spent to maybe make a profit? They were on the brink of moving before Golisano bought them. Buffalo is a great hockey town, but that don't mean crap to businessmen when it comes to the bottom line. Money first, fans second.

[dante23x]

Maybe the Bills planted the story in order to get our minds off of how dreadful their season has turned out!!!!!

 

:lol:

 

Probably Dick Jauron himself.

[PASabreFan]

Do you have proof that the value has gone up "significantly"? Even Golisano has stated that the team needs to make it into the third round of the playoffs just to see a profit. They are still losing money.

 

1. a)The economy. b) The piss poor play of late and with no sight of anything changing to make the team better isn't going to lure many buyers that would be willing to keep the team in Buffalo, meaning a new buyer is going to have to shell out some coin to put a winning team on the ice to have a chance at making a profit. Is that going to really happen in Buffalo? I would hope so, but I wouldn't bank on it.

 

2. Who, realistically, is going to be able to buy the team and be able to keep them in Buffalo and spend what needs to be spent to maybe make a profit? They were on the brink of moving before Golisano bought them. Buffalo is a great hockey town, but that don't mean crap to businessmen when it comes to the bottom line. Money first, fans second.

 

Profit and value are two different things. If you don't think Golisano's investment has significantly increased in value, I don't know what to tell you. By the way, Golisano has said the team is making money. Stop worrying about the guy's wallet. It is well padded.

 

As for moving, from what I understand, it would require three levels of government to give their OK. Beyond that, there's a long term lease on HSBC Arena. And the league would also have to approve a move. The Sabres aren't going anywhere. I hope this latest story doesn't kick off another round of rallies and "buy tickets" campaigns. It irked me that some Sabre fans felt the need during the last ownership crisis to prove their support.

[Claude Balls]

Profit and value are two different things. If you don't think Golisano's investment has significantly increased in value, I don't know what to tell you. By the way, Golisano has said the team is making money. Stop worrying about the guy's wallet. It is well padded.

 

As for moving, from what I understand, it would require three levels of government to give their OK. Beyond that, there's a long term lease on HSBC Arena. And the league would also have to approve a move. The Sabres aren't going anywhere. I hope this latest story doesn't kick off another round of rallies and "buy tickets" campaigns. It irked me that some Sabre fans felt the need during the last ownership crisis to prove their support.

Oh, I know how well off Golisano is. But because he has said the team is making money, doesn't mean it's profitable. Making money and making a profit are also two different things. I don't think ol' TG would ever admit he has made a bad investment. And if he does sell the team, whoever the buyer is will definitely be looking at the books, where the truth should be, and see just how lucrative a investment it might or might not be.

 

I also have no clue on how much political BS has to happen to move a franchise out of town, but I am sure there are ways around that too. Money talks and enough of it can amazingly make the unthinkable happen.

 

I hope the team stays and really hope they can be competitive. It's nice to have professional teams in the area, but when they both suck ass, it's hard to get too excited about them and want to spend $100's to see them play in person.

[tom webster]

Yes, but a business that loses $5-$10MM per year is worth much less upon resale than one that is break-even or profitable. Assuming the Sabres are break-even with no playoffs (which may or may not be true, but it's probably close), then every dollar they spend to get closer to the cap is a dollar of losses, unless it helps them into a long playoff run.

 

In addition, if someone buys the team for $200MM, (or $150MM, or whatever), a significant amount of that price is going to be borrowed money -- so if that costs $10-$15MM in interest per year, this is a significant additional operating cost that has to be, yes, subsidized. If Balsillie or some other billionaire wants to do so, great, but I'm skeptical. Warren Buffet wouldn't flush $10MM per year down the drain, Golisano isn't interested in doing so, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do so either.

 

I'm sure that IF TG sells, he will make a handsome profit, but he funded significant operating losses for several years before the team broke even. He took a real risk and is getting rewarded. Nuttin' wrong with that.

 

 

a) The value of sports franchise seems to have little to nothing to do with whatever the team reports as profit or loss.

b) Why do you assume TG funded significant operating losses in the first couple of years? As far as I can find out, his only outlay in the team was the additional investment and the $10 million he put up during the lockout. All the other expenses seemed to be funded by operating revenue of both the team and the arena.

c) If you told Warren Buffet he could put $32 million in the bank, contribute $10 million per year for 5 years and cash out at $200 million, and in addition would increase his exposure into a new community that would enhance his ability to influence statewide policy, he may not pursue it himself but he would recommend it to someone who would consider that a good investment.

d) I am not condemning TG for any of this. He came in when we needed him and will leave the team in much better shape then when he arrived.

e) All this being said, this is one of the sports strongest franchises and won't be going anywhere soon.

[tom webster]

Oh, I know how well off Golisano is. But because he has said the team is making money, doesn't mean it's profitable. Making money and making a profit are also two different things. I don't think ol' TG would ever admit he has made a bad investment. And if he does sell the team, whoever the buyer is will definitely be looking at the books, where the truth should be, and see just how lucrative a investment it might or might not be.

 

I also have no clue on how much political BS has to happen to move a franchise out of town, but I am sure there are ways around that too. Money talks and enough of it can amazingly make the unthinkable happen.

 

I hope the team stays and really hope they can be competitive. It's nice to have professional teams in the area, but when they both suck ass, it's hard to get too excited about them and want to spend $100's to see them play in person.

 

He is going to sell the team for at least a $100 million profit. In my world that is a good investment.

[bottlecap]

If only for a smart multi-billionaire owner who has hockey in his blood and is committed to Buffalo.

Besides the Knoxes, we've had a series of flim flam men over here. Very frustrating as a fan to

keep running into the ownership roadblock.

 

Maybe Guy Kawasaki has some friends...?

[tom webster]

I asked earlier -- does he dream about holding a Cup, or holding a Cup in Hamilton? I'm trying to figure out if I should have a man crush on the guy.

 

 

He is a passionate hockey guy. He has been known to take a private jet to get from a business meeting in Europe to a pick up hockey game in southern Ontario. He yearns for a team in Southern Ontario but the best way to make that happen may be to buy into another team, prove to the other owners what a team player he can be and eventually trade his ownership of one team for the rights to another team in his hometown. As site historian I'm sure that you are aware that this was the path the Knoxes took toward ownership of the Sabres.

[Taro T]

Billionaires make $200 million investments based on what they think they will make when they are ready to sell. Nobody is going to have to subsidize anything. TG says this team is in the black and you can bet he hasn't contributed one more dollar out of his personal bank account to keep the team a float. He is about to turn what was anywhere from a $20 million to $60 million investment (depending on who you believe*) into somewhere near $200 million. He could have spent upwards of $25 million per year and still done better then any of his other investments. That doesn't even take into account any of the substantial write offs or other benefits he received from owning the team.

You add into it that a guy like Balsillie spends his life dreaming about holding that Cup and the money is actually irrelevant.

 

* It is believed by those that should be in the know that his actual investment was somewhere near $32 million with an additional $10 million line of credit put up during the lockout. The rest of the purchase price was actually assumed debt that was paid back through future team revenues.

According to the bankruptcy papers, TG paid ~$52MM and the other $40MM was the assumed debt you referred to.

 

The $10MM LOC sounds about right.

[PASabreFan]

He is a passionate hockey guy. He has been known to take a private jet to get from a business meeting in Europe to a pick up hockey game in southern Ontario. He yearns for a team in Southern Ontario but the best way to make that happen may be to buy into another team, prove to the other owners what a team player he can be and eventually trade his ownership of one team for the rights to another team in his hometown. As site historian I'm sure that you are aware that this was the path the Knoxes took toward ownership of the Sabres.

 

Wrong. Seymour won the Sabres in a bridge game.

 

I'm also senior adviser. I have SDS' ear -- and more. Jealous?

[tom webster]

Wrong. Seymour won the Sabres in a bridge game.

 

I'm also senior adviser. I have SDS' ear -- and more. Jealous?

 

And the Golden Seals weren't part of the plan?????

 

And is SDS hoping for a van Gogh'esque legacy?????

[PASabreFan]

And the Golden Seals weren't part of the plan?????

 

And is SDS hoping for a van Gogh'esque legacy?????

 

No, Mike Tyson.

[shrader]

Billionaires make $200 million investments based on what they think they will make when they are ready to sell. Nobody is going to have to subsidize anything. TG says this team is in the black and you can bet he hasn't contributed one more dollar out of his personal bank account to keep the team a float. He is about to turn what was anywhere from a $20 million to $60 million investment (depending on who you believe*) into somewhere near $200 million. He could have spent upwards of $25 million per year and still done better then any of his other investments. That doesn't even take into account any of the substantial write offs or other benefits he received from owning the team.

You add into it that a guy like Balsillie spends his life dreaming about holding that Cup and the money is actually irrelevant.

 

* It is believed by those that should be in the know that his actual investment was somewhere near $32 million with an additional $10 million line of credit put up during the lockout. The rest of the purchase price was actually assumed debt that was paid back through future team revenues.

 

And just look how close this team came to being owned by Hammister. I wonder what city they'd be playing in now if that had happened... or if the franchise would even exist anymore.