More frustrating player: Afinogenov or Kotalik?

[Goodfella25]

Going into the season, these two guys are the most frustrating Sabres to watch IMO.

 

Afinogenov:

Has super speed, great dekes, and outstanding agility. He can skate circles around people, yet he still can't seem to put it together as a consistent scoring threat. Very frustrating player to watch, especially when you look at how he hurts the team defensively with careless turnovers. I watch him and see all the speed and think why can't he take it to the next level and be a legit NHL superstar?

 

Kotalik:

Has an absolute rocket slap shot. Has proven to be a 20+goal guy, yet some games you watch him play when he unleashes that shot and think why isn't he a 30-40 goal scorer? Other games you think why hasn't this guy been put on waivers. Besides that, it is frustrating that he is a big strong player who doesn't throw his weight around or play any kind of a physical, power-forward style game. Imagine if Al Kotalik had a mean streak? What a boost that would be on the right wing.

 

So who is more frustrating? People are ready to throw both of these guys under the bus. I'm ready to at least say there is no room for both of them. What say you?

[inkman]

Max is the more frustrating player, hands down. It's not his lack of putting it all together but rather his lack of hockey acumen.

 

Like one of my favorite posters and a caller to WGR once said:

 

"The only people who like Afinogenov are chicks and people who don't know anything about hockey."

[PASabreFan]

Max is the more frustrating player, hands down. It's not his lack of putting it all together but rather his lack of hockey acumen.

 

Like one of my favorite posters and a caller to WGR once said:

 

"The only people who like Afinogenov are chicks and people who don't know anything about hockey."

 

I like Afinogenov. I had a pony.

[darksabre]

At least Kotalik seems to know where he stands skill wise and plays within his limits. Max is a schmuck.

[LabattBlue]

As much as I think Kotalik can be so much more if he would drive to the net instead of firing slappers from along the boards, Max is 100 times more frustrating.

[evil_otto]

I like Afinogenov. I had a pony.

"I hate anyone who ever had a pony when they were growing up!"

 

Max - More frustrating than Kotalik. The frustration level should actually be equal for me, but I think Max is more frustrating because I expect(ed) so much more out of him.

[nfreeman]

I'll be the contrarian on this one. Although I like Al, he has a "quality" that I find at least as frustrating as any of Max's flaws. Here it is: he doesn't seem to play with any fire in the belly. For example, he's one of the biggest, strongest guys on our team, and, although he forechecks pretty well, he NEVER goes flying into a scrum to defend a teammate. He never gets PO'd when someone takes liberties with Miller or Vanek or Roy and knocks them down. Has he ever been in a fight? On those rare occasions when there's a group square-off, Al is so clearly going through the motions that it seems he doesn't give a crap.

 

Say what you will about Max and his blind drop passes at the blue line, but he doesn't shy away from the after-the-whistle scrapping, and he sticks up for his teammates immediately and feistily.

[Campy]

Ales doesn't really frustrate me more than any other Sabre after making a boneheaded play, but my expectations for him are fairly low.

 

Max has, at times, shown a willingness to back check and be relevant defensively, so we know he can do it. I just wish he would with a modicum of consistency.

 

He is exciting when carrying the puck and it's great when he turns a Dman inside out. But yeah, like you guys, watching him make a couple of great moves only to lose a handle on the puck, or trying to beat all 5 guys on his own, drives me nuts. I keep expecting him to "get it" one of these seasons, yet he never does.

 

Hope springs eternal, maybe this will be season... :rolleyes:

[stenbaro]

I know the thread is between Max and Al however by far the most frustrating player hands down for me to watch is Toni Lydman..First off he spells his name like a girl..Strike one before I even get into how he performs on the ice..Strike 2..He loves to do that stupid blind pass back behind the net from one side to the other and 9 out of 10 times he should just chip the puck out of the zone but no he passes it blindly and the pressure stays in our end..Strike 3..He must lead the NHL in penalty minutes for shooting the puck over the glass...I am getting my blood pressure up just remembering how he plays..If there was a strike four for "Toni" it would be his penchant for taking the bad penalty at the worst time..I cant wait for his time to end on this team..

[Kristian]

I'll be the contrarian on this one. Although I like Al, he has a "quality" that I find at least as frustrating as any of Max's flaws. Here it is: he doesn't seem to play with any fire in the belly. For example, he's one of the biggest, strongest guys on our team, and, although he forechecks pretty well, he NEVER goes flying into a scrum to defend a teammate. He never gets PO'd when someone takes liberties with Miller or Vanek or Roy and knocks them down. Has he ever been in a fight? On those rare occasions when there's a group square-off, Al is so clearly going through the motions that it seems he doesn't give a crap.

 

Say what you will about Max and his blind drop passes at the blue line, but he doesn't shy away from the after-the-whistle scrapping, and he sticks up for his teammates immediately and feistily.

 

That can be said about everyone on the team though, perhaps except Peters because... Well, I'd say he gets paid to fight, but to call what he does fighting....? Like I said, well......

 

I'll add to your Kotalik frustrations - He never pays the price to make a play either.

 

I once saw him halfway pushed, halfway jump into his own bench because he was so busy avoiding a bodycheck, that he completely put himself off balance, and as such a lot more prone to injury than if he had just absorbed the hit with that frame of his, prepared for the impact. It looked completely ridiculous.

[nfreeman]

That can be said about everyone on the team though, perhaps except Peters because... Well, I'd say he gets paid to fight, but to call what he does fighting....? Like I said, well......

 

I'll add to your Kotalik frustrations - He never pays the price to make a play either.

 

I once saw him halfway pushed, halfway jump into his own bench because he was so busy avoiding a bodycheck, that he completely put himself off balance, and as such a lot more prone to injury than if he had just absorbed the hit with that frame of his, prepared for the impact. It looked completely ridiculous.

 

You are right about this with respect to too many guys on the team, although I would exempt Gaustad, Paille, Kaleta, Mair, Roy, Max, Lydman (not as much, but some), Spacek (same), Weber and, based on his performance with other teams, Rivet.

 

I remember the Kotalik play you're referring to. It was embarrassing.

[LabattBlue]

Kotalik has the size to dirve to the net with the puck. Why he doesn't is beyond me, as he is not opposed to contact along the boards.

[carpandean]

That can be said about everyone on the team though, perhaps except Peters because...

Last year, possibly, but Goose and Mair have jumped in when liberties have been taken:

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What did Kotalik, who was closest, do? Put up his arms! (Check 2:30.)

[Kristian]

Last year, possibly, but Goose and Mair have jumped in when liberties have been taken:

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name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

What did Kotalik, who was closest, do? Put up his arms! (Check 2:30.)

 

Yeah, that's another classic "Big Al" moment.

[wjag]

I know the thread is between Max and Al however by far the most frustrating player hands down for me to watch is Toni Lydman..First off he spells his name like a girl..Strike one before I even get into how he performs on the ice..Strike 2..He loves to do that stupid blind pass back behind the net from one side to the other and 9 out of 10 times he should just chip the puck out of the zone but no he passes it blindly and the pressure stays in our end..Strike 3..He must lead the NHL in penalty minutes for shooting the puck over the glass...I am getting my blood pressure up just remembering how he plays..If there was a strike four for "Toni" it would be his penchant for taking the bad penalty at the worst time..I cant wait for his time to end on this team..

My sentiments exactly... He runs hot and cold... Not that his turnovers are any better or worse than others, but for some reason I seem to remember his more.

 

I like Max. He brings energy every night. I like Ales in the SO. I've never had a pony..

[inkman]

First off he spells his name like a girl..

 

That got a full-on-belly laugh out of me. :lol:

[SabresFan526]

For me, the more frustrating player is Max. He doesn't put up the production to justify his on-ice antics. The turnovers, the not great back-checking just aren't worth it. And, maybe last year was just a bad year and he returns to the 2005-2007 form, but really the skills he has vs. his effectiveness just aren't worth it to me and what I find extremely frustrating.

 

With Kotalik, I expect less from him than I expect from Max, hence making Max more frustrating. But, Kotalik generally meets my expectations. A 20-20 season is a solid season offensively. What bothers me about Kotalik is that he doesn't play with passion enough. He wants everything to come easy for him and he doesn't put in the effort or the hard work and just plays with very little intensity. In my opinion, with Kotalik, more than his skill, it's his attitude that's frustrating for me. With Max, it's his play and his attitude that I find frustrating.

 

As for Lydman, from the blueline, he's hands down the most frustrating. Again, similar to Max, maybe last year was just a bad year and he returns to the 2005-2007 form. But, man, how many times while watching a Sabres game does Lydman make a play and RJ says, "Cleared but not out"? And, how many times last year did he turn the puck over to the other team in the defensive zone? And how many teams would he be the cause of a goal by being out of position? It seemed like last year, he played with no confidence, was very tentative along with Tallinder, and just could not execute at all under the pressure. With the depth and competition for minutes along the blueline, I expect a better season out of Lydman, and hopefully less frustration.

[stenbaro]

For me, the more frustrating player is Max. He doesn't put up the production to justify his on-ice antics. The turnovers, the not great back-checking just aren't worth it. And, maybe last year was just a bad year and he returns to the 2005-2007 form, but really the skills he has vs. his effectiveness just aren't worth it to me and what I find extremely frustrating.

 

With Kotalik, I expect less from him than I expect from Max, hence making Max more frustrating. But, Kotalik generally meets my expectations. A 20-20 season is a solid season offensively. What bothers me about Kotalik is that he doesn't play with passion enough. He wants everything to come easy for him and he doesn't put in the effort or the hard work and just plays with very little intensity. In my opinion, with Kotalik, more than his skill, it's his attitude that's frustrating for me. With Max, it's his play and his attitude that I find frustrating.

 

As for Lydman, from the blueline, he's hands down the most frustrating. Again, similar to Max, maybe last year was just a bad year and he returns to the 2005-2007 form. But, man, how many times while watching a Sabres game does Lydman make a play and RJ says, "Cleared but not out"? And, how many times last year did he turn the puck over to the other team in the defensive zone? And how many teams would he be the cause of a goal by being out of position? It seemed like last year, he played with no confidence, was very tentative along with Tallinder, and just could not execute at all under the pressure. With the depth and competition for minutes along the blueline, I expect a better season out of Lydman, and hopefully less frustration.

Its been a long offseason, So long that I forgot how it sounded until you typed it..LOL..I can remember it like yesterday now.."Cleared but not out"..LOL

[wonderbread]

Kotalik is just a giant . There I said it. Sorry if anyone is offended. Passionless passenger. Great he can pot 20 goals but no intensity no drive no guts.

 

That being siad Max is way more frustrating.

[billsrcursed]

Last year, possibly, but Goose and Mair have jumped in when liberties have been taken:

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name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

What did Kotalik, who was closest, do? Put up his arms! (Check 2:30.)

 

This conversation should have ended with this post. Say what you want about Max, but he gives a 100% each night and WOULD NOT pull this crap!! ( And yes, I'm wearing his jersey-so what!!)

[Campy]

Last year, possibly, but Goose and Mair have jumped in when liberties have been taken:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

What did Kotalik, who was closest, do? Put up his arms! (Check 2:30.)

 

Thanks for the vid embed, that's the first time I saw that via a TV feed. I was at the game but had a recording error on my dvr.

 

We had decent seats for the game. In fact, at 3:05 in the top right of the screen is me yelling at Ovechkin as he made his way past the Caps' bench toward he dressing room. I'm wearing a white goat head jersey, but that's about all you see of me. I didn't realize that I was on TV - even if it's only part of me and even if it's only for a couple of seconds.

 

Thanks again for posting that.

[bottlecap]

There's a certain Ed Norton quality to Max that's infuriating. Once in awhile he gets it right and it's

pretty cool to watch, but too often he's making everyone on the ice look stupid, including himself.

 

There's a similar annoying fiddling and diddling with Connolly, plus you never know when he's going to be

headed to the dressing room. He's frustrating too because he always tries to make the perfect play.

 

Then there's Kotalik, or Stephane Richer Lite. You always know what you're going to get from Kotalik

and that's a player who's so almost, so not quite...

[wjag]

Hmmm... seems as Max and Ales had a pretty good game versus Leafs....

[inkman]

Say what you want about Max, but he gives a 100% each night and WOULD NOT pull this crap!! ( And yes, I'm wearing his jersey-so what!!)

 

...but 100% equals zero benefit for the Sabres. He turns the puck over, ruins scoring chances and takes horrible penalties. Whatever scoring you get out of him just doesn't offset the negatives.

[nfreeman]

...but 100% equals zero benefit for the Sabres. He turns the puck over, ruins scoring chances and takes horrible penalties. Whatever scoring you get out of him just doesn't offset the negatives.

 

This was true last year, but not the previous 2. Give him a chance this year and see what happens.