spndnchz Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Actually, Stafford and Paille just played their first full seasons in the NHL and did combine for more points than Jokinen had last season. But aside from that, it's not fantasy hockey, trade for equal numbers ... Jokinen already makes $5.25 million and has just 2 years left on the deal at which point he'll command a big raise ... Stafford and Paille will be like 24 and 25 respectively still a couple years from possibly hitting the market. By then I am pretty sure they will be outscoring Jokinen combined for about the same money, if not less. I really do see your point. But, the basis of my argument is that we have too much depth at forward. I know there has been time and money invested into Paille and Stafford, but I don't think Florida will take Peters or another seasoned vet. If they would take Max and Kotalik -- hey, we have a deal. With our depth at forward, I would easily move both Stafford and Paille, who certainly can still improve, for a proven 1st line center. When you look at what is gained versus what is lost, you can't just look at the number of bodies. You have to consider the quality of players. The post above this mentioned Jokinen contributed more points than Stafford and Paille combined. I say good trade. ahhh, no. I keep Staff and Pie-Yay, toss Max and Koats. you can have Ryan & the general too. Olie or no-lee. You hear me Darciramma! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROC Sabres Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I know there's an unwritten rule that you don't trade away proven talent for prospective talent. But is there also a rule that you have to keep guys that you think are going to good because you'll feel stupid if they get good somewhere else. We've been through that. I want to pay for someone I know is good and have them win for us. I want Jokinen. And while we're at it, why not get Marleau too and we can ship goose off to someone else. That way we dont have to worry about him and can just concentrate on signing miller and pommers <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabresFan526 Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I'd love to have Jokinen. I think what people are interpreting that Martin wants is a bit too much. I don't think it would take Stafford and Paille and the Sabres first pick in the draft to get Jokinen. I could see Max, MacArthur, and a 2nd rounder being enough to get Jokinen. Max has a higher salary and has more experience. MacArthur is a legitimate prospect who is NHL ready. And by the way, I don't think Max and MacArthur are garbage players that we don't want, more so the case for MacArthur than Max. The Sabres should not have to trade Stafford or Paille to get Jokinen. Worst case, I could see Max, Mac, and the San Jose's pick being enough. In terms of Stafford and Paille, I really don't think either of these guys are tradeable. However, I would say that for the right deal, I would be willing to trade them. If the deal became Stafford and SJ's first for Jokinen, I'd be willing to do it. Paille, I'm not ready to trade, especially after he had such a good season both offensively and defensively. Stafford I would not want to trade either, but I think he's one of the few guys who can bring solid value back to the Sabres, and in the right circumstance, I'd be willing to trade him, but it would have to be for a really good player. As for Brendan Morrison, that's a trade that I see is more realistic of what Darcy would do. And, it'd probably be like a 4th and 5th rounder for Morrison. And, in the best case it'd be a one-for-one swap of Max for Morrison and the salaries even out, basically. I'd take Morrison centering the Hecht and Pominville line over Max on the fourth line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 For the record; Sabres' FO not as impressed with Jokinen as all the internet sites are. Amongst other things, they believe he disappears on the road and has a history of lockerroom issues. To answer someone else's question, Buffalo did trade Keith Ballard, a former number one pick, as part as the Drury trade. I believe that either Bernier or Stafford will be dealt before training camp. If they do go away, I'd assume it is part of a package to get one of those "missing pieces" type players. If they do pull the trigger on a deal involving one of them, what is it the Sabres are trying to bring back for them, stay at home D-man, 2nd line center, other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 And while we're at it, why not get Marleau too and we can ship goose off to someone else. That way we dont have to worry about him and can just concentrate on signing miller and pommers <_< I actually like goose and thought that at the end of the year when push came to shove he was one of the guys that stepped up and played his a$$ off. Like I said, we wouldn't have to give up Paille and Staff to get Jokinen. I really like Wolf's idea of offering Max and picks/prospects for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROC Sabres Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I actually like goose and thought that at the end of the year when push came to shove he was one of the guys that stepped up and played his a$$ off. Like I said, we wouldn't have to give up Paille and Staff to get Jokinen. I really like Wolf's idea of offering Max and picks/prospects for him. As do I. I think max and kotalik/connolly would be way above what they are asking but max and a pick would be a good deal. I'd be willing to part with a 1st rount pick for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 As do I. I think max and kotalik/connolly would be way above what they are asking but max and a pick would be a good deal. I'd be willing to part with a 1st rount pick for it. I don't think it's too much. Did I mention that Jokinen played every game the last three seasons? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 For the record; Sabres' FO not as impressed with Jokinen as all the internet sites are. Amongst other things, they believe he disappears on the road and has a history of lockerroom issues. To answer someone else's question, Buffalo did trade Keith Ballard, a former number one pick, as part as the Drury trade. I believe that either Bernier or Stafford will be dealt before training camp. Any source (or at least a hint) of where this comes from? I think you're right about Bernier or Stafford, although I'd throw Max and Paille into that group and say that at least one and about a 50/50 likelihood that 2 of those four will be gone. My hope, to respond to Taro, is that it will be in a package for one of the key missing pieces, and I think it's more likely to be a defenseman than a forward. Finally, having just listened to the long Sabres presser on sabres.com with Darcy and the head of scouting (Kevin something, who sounded really capable and team-focused -- I wouldn't be surprised to see him in a GM/Assistant GM job someday), I think it's highly unlikely we trade either of our 1st-rounders, unless it's to move up in the draft. Darcy sounded really excited about this year's draft, the talent, the hockey sense, the maturity, etc. We are going to have 2 first-round picks in this draft. We aren't trading one of them for a veteran player. I highly recommend listening to the presser when you have 30 minutes or so. Very interesting stuff. It also sounded to me like it's more than 50/50 that Max gets traded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 No laughter, but I do wonder how two undersized forwards will make a 6'2 forward expendable. Maybe expendable is the wrong word, but if the FO thinks they can get more production from Gerbe or Kennedy I would not be shocked to see them move someone like Paille or Stafford as part of a package. And three posts down TW is predicting Bernier or Staff will be traded before camp. Besides - Paille is only listed at 6-0, not 6-2. :nana: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I'd rather take a chance on a player like Malone than spend the money on Jokinen. If the Sabres were to go after a name player I would prefer they go after Gaborik who cost a more but is a much better player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I really do see your point. But, the basis of my argument is that we have too much depth at forward. I know there has been time and money invested into Paille and Stafford, but I don't think Florida will take Peters or another seasoned vet. If they would take Max and Kotalik -- hey, we have a deal. With our depth at forward, I would easily move both Stafford and Paille, who certainly can still improve, for a proven 1st line center. When you look at what is gained versus what is lost, you can't just look at the number of bodies. You have to consider the quality of players. The post above this mentioned Jokinen contributed more points than Stafford and Paille combined. I say good trade. While we have depth at forward, how good is it? Everyone here talks about moving Kotalik, Max and Connolly for obvious reasons. Now you have no problem moving Stafford and Paille. Not sure I would do that. Big difference between depth and good depth. Some of our forwards are very average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stenbaro Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 While we have depth at forward, how good is it? Everyone here talks about moving Kotalik, Max and Connolly for obvious reasons. Now you have no problem moving Stafford and Paille. Not sure I would do that. Big difference between depth and good depth. Some of our forwards are very average. Not to mention if youre moving 2 or 3 of them you are banking on your young guys to produce to fill the voids. On the flip side of the coin they arent replacing a whole lot of production though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarasotaSabre Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Get the feeling if the sabres to take a run at him, they're gonna pi$$ off a lot of fans by tossing two of the young players to them. Now if that includes some of our AHL players, maybe they can give it a go. I just dont see that happening. Does it say a specific draft pick or just 'a' draft pick? I'm guessing 2nd round at least. Prolly not worth the cost. Yeah, "prolly" not worth the cost.....WTF ?? :thumbdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Not to mention if youre moving 2 or 3 of them you are banking on your young guys to produce to fill the voids. On the flip side of the coin they arent replacing a whole lot of production though Not necessarily, you could use the players to acquire a top line forward or defensemen then replace them with some low priced veterans. There should be some gritty veteran fourth line types that can fill out the roster until the new batch of youngsters are ready for the NHL. I do hope the Sabres can pick up a veteran player or two that can bounce back and fourth between Portland and Buffalo maybe like a Jason Botterill type. Going further into this offseason I am more inclined to feel that Mike Ryan and Clarke MacArthur don't have long futures with the Sabres and maybe it is time to move them or just let them go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stenbaro Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Not necessarily, you could use the players to acquire a top line forward or defensemen then replace them with some low priced veterans. There should be some gritty veteran fourth line types that can fill out the roster until the new batch of youngsters are ready for the NHL. I do hope the Sabres can pick up a veteran player or two that can bounce back and fourth between Portland and Buffalo maybe like a Jason Botterill type. Going further into this offseason I am more inclined to feel that Mike Ryan and Clarke MacArthur don't have long futures with the Sabres and maybe it is time to move them or just let them go. They can fill them with a veteran type player but with so many young forwards and forwards in their system do you think the Sabres will add more on offense or defense? I tend to think on defense more so than forward but that may be just my thought process not theirs. I think we have to give Macarthur a chance to see if he can be an NHL player this yr..He seems to be inconsistent but his upside when he plays well is huge. If he could play like that all the time we have a good player. He should be given the chance before we give up on him.. The one thing we can take from the Campbell situation is some players can develop into a nice player over time. He could be a late developer as far as consistency goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I believe that either Bernier or Stafford will be dealt before training camp. I would be surprised if either is moved myself. I would expect a decent return for Stafford if he was moved. Bernier has his make or break season coming up - or else he is going to be a journeyman third-liner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Not necessarily, you could use the players to acquire a top line forward or defensemen then replace them with some low priced veterans. There should be some gritty veteran fourth line types that can fill out the roster until the new batch of youngsters are ready for the NHL. I do hope the Sabres can pick up a veteran player or two that can bounce back and fourth between Portland and Buffalo maybe like a Jason Botterill type. Going further into this offseason I am more inclined to feel that Mike Ryan and Clarke MacArthur don't have long futures with the Sabres and maybe it is time to move them or just let them go. Just curious what has happened since the season ended that has soured you on these guys more? is it just the influx of younger talent coming after them? I tend to agree on Ryan, but I think this camp is HUGE for MacArthur ... he had a really good year in Rochester last year and there were times early in the season when I really liked what I saw when he was up with the Sabres ... he threw his body around and seemed to bust his ass every shift ... other times, not so much; mayeb he was frustrated with being sent back down, I don't know. But if he shows up with a chip on his shoulder and ready to play, I think he might still have a future ... at the same time, if they can use him as trade bait to sweeten a deal, I would be fine with that ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 They can fill them with a veteran type player but with so many young forwards and forwards in their system do you think the Sabres will add more on offense or defense? I tend to think on defense more so than forward but that may be just my thought process not theirs.I think we have to give Macarthur a chance to see if he can be an NHL player this yr..He seems to be inconsistent but his upside when he plays well is huge. If he could play like that all the time we have a good player. He should be given the chance before we give up on him.. The one thing we can take from the Campbell situation is some players can develop into a nice player over time. He could be a late developer as far as consistency goes I guess the problem I have is that MacArthur hasn't really distinguished himself in any aspect of his game. When I think of the young Sabres or prospects I often forget he is Sabres property. Maybe you can fill in the Blank? "MacArthur is young but his ____________ game really shows promise and can be developed over time". I can't think of anything to put there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I guess the problem I have is that MacArthur hasn't really distinguished himself in any aspect of his game. When I think of the young Sabres or prospects I often forget he is Sabres property. Maybe you can fill in the Blank? "MacArthur is young but his ____________ game really shows promise and can be developed over time". I can't think of anything to put there. Overall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sloth Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I'd rather take a chance on a player like Malone than spend the money on Jokinen. If the Sabres were to go after a name player I would prefer they go after Gaborik who cost a more but is a much better player. Isn't Gaborik a bit injury prone? I hope the Sabres can acquire Ollie. He's a big guy and he has a big name. The Sabres need a guy like that. Ollie has played well, considering the fact he's been playing for a poor team. I think Ollie will do MUCH better in the Sabres system. Plus, people in Buffalo actually love hockey, not just a winning team. That can be a type of movitivation for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Overall? Are you saying he is a 'jack of all trades and master of none'? If he doesn't do any thing really well and is just OK at everything he is going to passed quickly by other Sabres prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stenbaro Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I guess the problem I have is that MacArthur hasn't really distinguished himself in any aspect of his game. When I think of the young Sabres or prospects I often forget he is Sabres property. Maybe you can fill in the Blank? "MacArthur is young but his ____________ game really shows promise and can be developed over time". I can't think of anything to put there. I liked his passing in between the blue lines. He also seemed to have a sense for where to go with the puck around the net. That is what caught my eye. Out of all the young players we have I am more inclined to see how Stafford improves this year. He is the one I believe that has to show a lot more improvement in production in his game more so than any skater on this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 I guess the problem I have is that MacArthur hasn't really distinguished himself in any aspect of his game. When I think of the young Sabres or prospects I often forget he is Sabres property. Maybe you can fill in the Blank? "MacArthur is young but his ____________ game really shows promise and can be developed over time". I can't think of anything to put there. Can't say I disagree, especially the last half of last season when he was up with the Sabres ... his first call up he seemed to play pretty well with Hecht and Pominville, but I am not suggesting he should be there this season even if he sets the world on fire in camp ... I guess I just see him as better and younger than Ryan so i would not lump them together ... he has shown me more than Novotny did before he was traded, for instance ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Just curious what has happened since the season ended that has soured you on these guys more? is it just the influx of younger talent coming after them? I tend to agree on Ryan, but I think this camp is HUGE for MacArthur ... he had a really good year in Rochester last year and there were times early in the season when I really liked what I saw when he was up with the Sabres ... he threw his body around and seemed to bust his ass every shift ... other times, not so much; mayeb he was frustrated with being sent back down, I don't know. But if he shows up with a chip on his shoulder and ready to play, I think he might still have a future ... at the same time, if they can use him as trade bait to sweeten a deal, I would be fine with that ... I would like to see MacArthur on the roster. My feeling it is pretty normal cycle in a rookie season. Get called up, score some quick goals, cool off. He is the type of player that can chip in 20 goals, but he is going to have to bust his ass backchecking to show he can be a consistent asset. He has good hands in traffic, but there are better diggers out there on the boards, and better penalty killers. In short he has to do the things Maxime Talbot does for Pittsburgh to really have a solid hope. I'm hoping he's put on 10 lbs. of muscle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Isn't Gaborik a bit injury prone? I hope the Sabres can acquire Ollie. He's a big guy and he has a big name. The Sabres need a guy like that. Ollie has played well, considering the fact he's been playing for a poor team. I think Ollie will do MUCH better in the Sabres system. Plus, people in Buffalo actually love hockey, not just a winning team. That can be a type of movitivation for him. Gaborik was injured in 06-07 and still manged 30 goals in 48 games. That is the only season he has played less than 65 games. Who cares if Ollie is a "bigger name"? The Sabres don't need big names they need quality hockey players that have complete games. I see Ollie as a taller B-Rod which the Sabres do not need at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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