PASabreFan Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Sounds like the beginning of the end for the old gray lady... http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060903/1073970.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogie Oglethorpe Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Sad news, but so necessary to move forward and revitalize the waterfront. It would've been nice to keep that part of history, but in doing so, it would inhibit the future. Can you imagine a day where the area around HSBC arena is vibrant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 The obstructionists(I mean preservationists <_< ) should be along any minute now telling us that the Aud must be saved at all costs. Just remember to tell them that buildings with a lot more history(Olympia, Chicago Stadium & the Boston Garden) have all been torn down. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabregoats Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 The obstructionists(I mean preservationists <_< ) should be along any minute now telling us that the Aud must be saved at all costs. Just remember to tell them that buildings with a lot more history(Olympia, Chicago Stadium & the boston Garden) have all been torn down. <_< and soon even Yankee Stadium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Tear it down, implode it, whatever, just don't use so MUCH public money to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted September 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Yeah, why should Bass Pro get a penny of taxpayer money? I don't get it. Never will. Talk about corporate welfare. But that's how the game works, and if the taxpayers don't step up, the store will probably go elsewhere. I wonder what will happen to the seats now. Because of the mold/asbestos problem in the problem, would that prevent them from being sold, out of fear of a lawsuit down the road? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Yeah, why should Bass Pro get a penny of taxpayer money? I don't get it. Never will. Talk about corporate welfare. But that's how the game works, and if the taxpayers don't step up, the store will probably go elsewhere. Let it go elsewhere. This isn't a factory or a corporate headquarters--it's a freaking retail store. Those jobs simply aren't worth that much to the economy (but skilled factory jobs or HQ white collar jobs would be). And it's not going to boost tourism, either, with a maximum four-hour drive from Buffalo to an existing Bass Pro in each cardinal direction. That means that if a potential customer is more than two hours away, he/she already has a closer Bass Pro. I don't see how we're going to fill the hotels and restaurants with Bass Pro customers. We're not the only dupes, by the way; while traveling in Oklahoma in July, I read with interest a Tulsa World article criticizing the state & city's excessive grants of breaks to Bass Pro. (That newspaper doesn't make articles available online for free, so sorry, no link.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightrider Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Can you imagine a day where the area around HSBC arena is vibrant? Honestly, no, I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Yeah, why should Bass Pro get a penny of taxpayer money? I don't get it. Never will. Talk about corporate welfare. But that's how the game works, and if the taxpayers don't step up, the store will probably go elsewhere. I wonder what will happen to the seats now. Because of the mold/asbestos problem in the problem, would that prevent them from being sold, out of fear of a lawsuit down the road? If the mold/mildew problem is as bad as estimated, the cushioned seats(golds and reds) are probably shot. That leaves the blues(I believe some were wood and some were plastic) & the oranges(plastic), which are probably okay. Without even trying to figure out if they can make any money off a sale of the salvagable seats, the city will come out and tell us that they will lose money trying to remove them, so forget about it. My guess...the seats will go with the demolition of the building. Damn shame. :( Article about the seats from back in January(Joe Giambra from the city is the kind of backward thinker that has been draggin this city down for decades)... http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=34800 $100-200 in labor to remove each seat? ! How much of that is the amount he is pocketing? What a joker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjsbu96 Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 it's easy to rally against the corporate machine and i'm not sure that a retail fishing store will attract millions but i don't think our money is bringing a major bank or technology firm anytime soon, so what the hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 it's easy to rally against the corporate machine and i'm not sure that a retail fishing store will attract millions but i don't think our money is bringing a major bank or technology firm anytime soon, so what the hell? Please don't get me wrong--I'm not rallying against the "corporate machine"; I realize that Buffalo needs more corporate participation, not less. But "corporate participation" means real investment into the community, not a retail outlet. Why not a bank or a major technology firm? We were close to landing a large cable company, and we already have the headquarters of a large bank (M&T) and a significant operating center for one of the world's largest (HSBC). Did the city even TRY to replace Adelphia with something comparable? Or did they grab the first girl to come along after being dumped by the prom queen? I sense the latter. Also, there are many innovative companies in the Buffalo area already that could have grown with that money (in the form of cheap loans or tax breaks). Or, we could have used that money to try to keep/attract some good factory jobs that provide not only a living wage, but diposable income that trickles down through the community. It would have been nice to provide Ford or Delphi or even Freezer Queen with an incentive to make their cuts in another community or to attract other investment into another manufacturing plant. Instead, we'll get a giant Gander Mountain. Smart thinking. I really hoped Brown would abort this final Masiello mistake; doesn't look like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMWR100RT Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 What a joke. Our city leaders fleeced us in Rochester with the fast ferry. I guess it's your turn. I was recently at the Bass pro shop in Auburn, and if that's what your crooked government is basing the future on, your in big trouble. Is bass pro any different from /Galayans? Another case of the government shell game. Go Sabres! And I would shell out for an old aud seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawerchuk Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 I love the Aud as much as the next Sabrefan, but its time to move on Buffalo. That waterfront area has so much potential to be great. Just get rid of the damn rusted grain elevators that is the cause of much eyesore will you?!?! Gheesh. I too would love to pony up some $$$$ for a old Aud seat. Would be awesome. GO BUFFALO!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 What a joke. Our city leaders fleeced us in Rochester with the fast ferry. I guess it's your turn. I was recently at the Bass pro shop in Auburn, and if that's what your crooked government is basing the future on, your in big trouble. Is bass pro any different from /Galayans? Another case of the government shell game. Go Sabres! And I would shell out for an old aud seat. I think the ferry was a well-intended idea that simply didn't have the customer support (metrorail, anyone?); too bad it didn't work out, but at least the idea was strong. They tried something and it didn't work. Bass Pro is a little different because it's money that was supposed to be used as an incentive for a good idea (Adelphia HQ) but is now being used for a giant fishing store. That's just, well, fishing. I too would buy Aud seats; I've got a terrific spot in my living room for a couple of blues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 I think the ferry was a well-intended idea that simply didn't have the customer support (metrorail, anyone?); too bad it didn't work out, but at least the idea was strong. They tried something and it didn't work. Bass Pro is a little different because it's money that was supposed to be used as an incentive for a good idea (Adelphia HQ) but is now being used for a giant fishing store. That's just, well, fishing. I too would buy Aud seats; I've got a terrific spot in my living room for a couple of blues. A ferry from Ra-cha-cha to TO COULD be successful, but this particular one had NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER to be successful from day 1. They did so many things wrong, it'll end up being a textbook case of how NOT to run a project of that type. (The boat was too large, assumptions about ridership (both type and number) were incorrect, assumptions about government support from the Canadian side and about customs and pilotage were incorrect, the company was underfunded, the few qualified people that reviewed the plan for the City / State that raised legitimate questions were ignored, there were no plans in place to lock in operating costs, they overestimated the operating season, for all intents and purposes they had no marketing in Canada and didn't market correctly in the US. That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure I can think of other things CATS did wrong.) The only thing the owners did right was find a willing dupe. They fleeced Johnson, plain and simple. And, because of the sweetheart lease they have on the terminal they are STILL fleecing the city and will for ~37 more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Dance Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Two thoughts: First, apparently no one listened to me back in 1996. Once HSBC (nee Marine Midland) Arena opened, I said "auction off the Aud seats, scoreboard, etc. and then use the money to raze the Aud". If that site were shovel-ready back in 97, who knows what could have been developed there? I have good memories of the place too, but there's no way to relive them and keeping the Aud standing isn't going to help me remember them any better. As my friend Tom said, take a picture, knock it down and get on with it... As for BassPro, I'm not a huge fan of giving away my tax money to anyone who is going to turn a profit from it. But, if we gave money to the Knoxes and the Riches to build sports facilities that remain unused for 300 or so days out of the year, BassPro is the better deal. At least they will be open year-round. I've never understood the mentality that "if it ain't perfect, we shouldn't do it." BassPro isn't the "silver bullet" that is going to raise lower Main Street from the dead. On the other hand, it's like chicken soup: it won't hurt. So, someone lives just over two hours from Buffalo and has the choice between going to a BassPro in Auburn (where there isn't all that much else going on; sorry Auburn) or driving an extra 20 minutes and coming to Buffalo for a trip to BassPro, a Bisons' game and then dinner at Pearl Street or Chef's. Would it be better NOT to have BassPro here and to let them spend their $$$ in Auburn? It's just a retail outlet, but if it brings in extra money and extra visitors, it's not a bad thing. Eleven says "let it go elsewhere". If we do that, and BassPro winds up in Dunkirk or Erie instead and it boosts their economy by 15 or 20 percent, we'll all be self-flagellating and putting on our hairshirts because we let another opportunity pass. Raze the Aud. Raise BassPro. Sit back have a cold one and watch people come and buy stuff. It'll be fun! -Ed :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Two thoughts: First, apparently no one listened to me back in 1996. Once HSBC (nee Marine Midland) Arena opened, I said "auction off the Aud seats, scoreboard, etc. and then use the money to raze the Aud". If that site were shovel-ready back in 97, who knows what could have been developed there? I have good memories of the place too, but there's no way to relive them and keeping the Aud standing isn't going to help me remember them any better. As my friend Tom said, take a picture, knock it down and get on with it... As for BassPro, I'm not a huge fan of giving away my tax money to anyone who is going to turn a profit from it. But, if we gave money to the Knoxes and the Riches to build sports facilities that remain unused for 300 or so days out of the year, BassPro is the better deal. At least they will be open year-round. I've never understood the mentality that "if it ain't perfect, we shouldn't do it." BassPro isn't the "silver bullet" that is going to raise lower Main Street from the dead. On the other hand, it's like chicken soup: it won't hurt. So, someone lives just over two hours from Buffalo and has the choice between going to a BassPro in Auburn (where there isn't all that much else going on; sorry Auburn) or driving an extra 20 minutes and coming to Buffalo for a trip to BassPro, a Bisons' game and then dinner at Pearl Street or Chef's. Would it be better NOT to have BassPro here and to let them spend their $$$ in Auburn? It's just a retail outlet, but if it brings in extra money and extra visitors, it's not a bad thing. Eleven says "let it go elsewhere". If we do that, and BassPro winds up in Dunkirk or Erie instead and it boosts their economy by 15 or 20 percent, we'll all be self-flagellating and putting on our hairshirts because we let another opportunity pass. Raze the Aud. Raise BassPro. Sit back have a cold one and watch people come and buy stuff. It'll be fun! -Ed :) Well said, especially the part about giving away millions of dollars for stadiums that sit vacant for 300+ days a year! I'm not a big outdoorsman, but give people another reason to come downtown and before you know it, people will begin coming here for weekend stays and go from there. Sabres or Bisons game, casino, naval park, inner harbor, Bass Pro, etc... Throw in a hotel somewhere around the foot of Main St. and thinks will really start picking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Two thoughts: First, apparently no one listened to me back in 1996. Once HSBC (nee Marine Midland) Arena opened, I said "auction off the Aud seats, scoreboard, etc. and then use the money to raze the Aud". If that site were shovel-ready back in 97, who knows what could have been developed there? I have good memories of the place too, but there's no way to relive them and keeping the Aud standing isn't going to help me remember them any better. As my friend Tom said, take a picture, knock it down and get on with it... As for BassPro, I'm not a huge fan of giving away my tax money to anyone who is going to turn a profit from it. But, if we gave money to the Knoxes and the Riches to build sports facilities that remain unused for 300 or so days out of the year, BassPro is the better deal. At least they will be open year-round. I've never understood the mentality that "if it ain't perfect, we shouldn't do it." BassPro isn't the "silver bullet" that is going to raise lower Main Street from the dead. On the other hand, it's like chicken soup: it won't hurt. So, someone lives just over two hours from Buffalo and has the choice between going to a BassPro in Auburn (where there isn't all that much else going on; sorry Auburn) or driving an extra 20 minutes and coming to Buffalo for a trip to BassPro, a Bisons' game and then dinner at Pearl Street or Chef's. Would it be better NOT to have BassPro here and to let them spend their $$$ in Auburn? It's just a retail outlet, but if it brings in extra money and extra visitors, it's not a bad thing. Eleven says "let it go elsewhere". If we do that, and BassPro winds up in Dunkirk or Erie instead and it boosts their economy by 15 or 20 percent, we'll all be self-flagellating and putting on our hairshirts because we let another opportunity pass. Raze the Aud. Raise BassPro. Sit back have a cold one and watch people come and buy stuff. It'll be fun! -Ed :) Good point about the sports facilities, but those at least bring in out-of-towners. I don't think Bass Pro will do that because there are too many nearby already. It will be a nice component of a redeveloped waterfront, but it won't be the main component, and it won't raise anyone's economy by 1 percent, much less 15 or 20. But the Aud must go, and the plan you had ten years ago seems good now and would have seemed good to me then, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightrider Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 As for BassPro, I'm not a huge fan of giving away my tax money to anyone who is going to turn a profit from it. Eleven says "let it go elsewhere". If we do that, and BassPro winds up in Dunkirk or Erie instead and it boosts their economy by 15 or 20 percent, we'll all be self-flagellating and putting on our hairshirts because we let another opportunity pass. Raze the Aud. Raise BassPro. Sit back have a cold one and watch people come and buy stuff. It'll be fun! -Ed :) 1. Companies pay taxes too. It is their money also. If another state can provide lower tax rates, or less regulation, or some other draw, why wouldn't they go where they have the best chance to make money? That is capitalism. There will be no recovery in WNY until can make the region fiscally attractive. 2. It is pretty sad that Buffalo has been reduced to the point where people think of Dunkirk or Erie as competition. 3. You sound like Jimmy Griffin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjsbu96 Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 I love how so many of these debates turn towards the development of Buffalo. If only our politicians had the same enthusiasm for these projects as us... One point I thought I thought might get lost in this discussion is the residual development that would accompany a project of this magnitude. A giant fishing warehouse in the middle of downtown won't alone attract people, but it is the hotel(s), museum, Waterfront walkways, and other ad hoc projects that utlimately bring this whole thing (downtown development) together, which is why I think the Bass Pro is a starting point, not a stand-alone solution to all of Buffalo's problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Good point about the sports facilities, but those at least bring in out-of-towners. I don't think Bass Pro will do that because there are too many nearby already. It will be a nice component of a redeveloped waterfront, but it won't be the main component, and it won't raise anyone's economy by 1 percent, much less 15 or 20. But the Aud must go, and the plan you had ten years ago seems good now and would have seemed good to me then, too. Looking at the Bass Pro Shops website, it seems there aren't many nearby...and if you haven't been in one of these stores, you can't really compare it to a Dick's or Galyan's. The closest ones to WNY (again, going by the wesbite) are Auburn, NY (2 hrs, 12 min from BUF); Pittsburgh, PA, (3hrs, 32 min) and Toronto (1hr, 50min). I don't think it has to draw a lot of distant out-of-towners, but rather give people from the smaller suburbs, from the Southern Tier all the way up to northern Niagara County, another reason to come into downtown and spend some money. I love how so many of these debates turn towards the development of Buffalo. If only our politicians had the same enthusiasm for these projects as us... One point I thought I thought might get lost in this discussion is the residual development that would accompany a project of this magnitude. A giant fishing warehouse in the middle of downtown won't alone attract people, but it is the hotel(s), museum, Waterfront walkways, and other ad hoc projects that utlimately bring this whole thing (downtown development) together, which is why I think the Bass Pro is a starting point, not a stand-alone solution to all of Buffalo's problems. I thought it was going to be the centerpiece of a hotel/retail/museum complex, if I am reading this part of the article correctly: The complicated conversion of the 66-year-old Aud to a 250,000-square-foot Outdoor World store, 250-room hotel and Great Lakes-themed museum has always seemed a huge leap for Bass Pro, which has rarely done anything other than build its stores from scratch. Of its 34 operating stores and four set to debut, only five are retrofits of existing buildings. Even those overhauled buildings were all relatively new retail structures. If the Bass Pro Shop is indeed part of a bigger plan that comes together in a timely manner, then yes, it will help. If Bass Pro is left hanging out while the city engages in its politics-as-usual bickering, delays and general BS, then it will not have any appreciable impact on the downtown area or the overall economy, and will end up closing up shop and moving to Dunkirk or Erie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Looking at the Bass Pro Shops website, it seems there aren't many nearby...and if you haven't been in one of these stores, you can't really compare it to a Dick's or Galyan's. The closest ones to WNY (again, going by the wesbite) are Auburn, NY (2 hrs, 12 min from BUF); Pittsburgh, PA, (3hrs, 32 min) and Toronto (1hr, 50min). I don't think it has to draw a lot of distant out-of-towners, but rather give people from the smaller suburbs, from the Southern Tier all the way up to northern Niagara County, another reason to come into downtown and spend some money. I thought it was going to be the centerpiece of a hotel/retail/museum complex, if I am reading this part of the article correctly: If the Bass Pro Shop is indeed part of a bigger plan that comes together in a timely manner, then yes, it will help. If Bass Pro is left hanging out while the city engages in its politics-as-usual bickering, delays and general BS, then it will not have any appreciable impact on the downtown area or the overall economy, and will end up closing up shop and moving to Dunkirk or Erie... Right on with the distant out-of-towners--it will appeal to people within 2 hours south, one hour east, etc. My position is that's not enough bang for the buck. But I'm getting preachy, and I've taken this thread too far afield from its original point. I'd better stop before I get too repetitive and irritating (if I haven't already). It's an interesting debate, though--wanna hash it out at TBD? Those football folks could use some intelligent discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 Right on with the distant out-of-towners--it will appeal to people within 2 hours south, one hour east, etc. My position is that's not enough bang for the buck. But I'm getting preachy, and I've taken this thread too far afield from its original point. I'd better stop before I get too repetitive and irritating (if I haven't already). It's an interesting debate, though--wanna hash it out at TBD? Those football folks could use some intelligent discussion... I don't disagree that on its own, the Bass Pro isn't what DT needs...but as part of something bigger, it can help. And I've seen some of what passes for intelligent debate on TBD...and I think we've already surpassed that standard. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 You want interesting debate on this subject. Take a venture over here and throw your two cents in... http://www.buffalorising.com/city/archives...php#commentsall :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 You want interesting debate on this subject. Take a venture over here and throw your two cents in... http://www.buffalorising.com/city/archives...php#commentsall :) Cool--thanks for the link. Lots said already there; if I have something useful to add, I will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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