Bmwolf21 Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 I'd be interested in a pic instead of a link... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilsAlum Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 try here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Seats Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 This is much better than the banana slug. I don't like it as much as I liked the Slabyk designs (lets face it, Slabyk hit the ball out of the park), but this one has all the basics in place: a buffalo, a circle, swords, blue and gold. I'd personally rather have the sword handles at the bottom like the original... but hey after the banana slug/ skunk bandit my expectations are low. So, for those of us who don't have access to that message board, can anyone report on the source of these designs and their possible legitimacy? Trolling around that photobucket site there is also this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v414/Qua...restRebrand.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 As bad as that logo is, it's still better than the Flying Barney Rubble Hairpiece Banana Slug Skunk. The sabres can't point down. That's just dumb for a lot of reasons, the biggest one being that all the luck will run out. :) And it looks like one of those ink blot tests Jerry Sullivan wrote about today in a column on the new logo. Speaking of that, do you think when someone like Sullivan rips the logo it will sound a death knell for it, or just gird the Sabres to go through with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcrusho Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 I'm sure we could Get Golisano's Voicemail box at his office somehow... that would be funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frisky Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 Speaking of that, do you think when someone like Sullivan rips the logo it will sound a death knell for it, or just gird the Sabres to go through with it? I would guess gird them as I think LQ is going to be pretty stubborn about sticking with it and hoping that we either grow to like it or tolerate it. I hope, on the other hand, it will go away and we can forget about it like a bad dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 I don't usually like Sullivan's columns, but I was gald SOMEONE at the News was willing to step up call this for what it is - a horrible, horrible idea (if true.) I think he is partly correct when he wonders whether the leaked logo was a way of testing the waters, to see if/how much fans liked/loved/hated the logo. If that's the case, I hope they are getting the message loud & clear - BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 All we can do is keep making noise ... even if it was official, remember this was the 49ers helmet for one day before the fans flipped out and they scrapped it ... http://www.instantreplaysportcard.com/item...ers%20proto.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcrusho Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Exactly http://sportslogos.net/team.php?t=179 Scroll down to "UNUSED LOGOS" lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 I love the original 9-er logo. Somehow seems apt for Frisco. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 I'm no lawyer, but I am afraid that Slabyk and all of us supportng his designs so loudly are painting the Sabres into a corner here. Remember a few years back where that guy claimed he submitted logo designs to the Baltimore Ravens and they didn't use them EXACTLY but they were close enough that they had to pay him and change the logo. Basically, because Slabyk made so many variations on this page ... http://www.celsiusdesign.net/sabres/logos.html ... just about anything with a buffalo and crossed swords will be similar. Allegedly, he has met with the Sabres to show them this stuff so he's not just some wacko with a website. Short of going back to the original logo exactly as it was, the Sabres would almost be inviting a lawsuit from Slabyk if they used something similar and didn't compensate him for it. And since they obviously already paid someone else to design a logo, I can't see them flushing that money away and paying Slabyk on top of it. Maybe all our yelling and screaming will get rid of the ugly thing that leaked, but odds are the result is not going to be close to what we want unless they go back to the original ... which would be fine with me but I think unlikely. Just a thought, maybe I am way off base ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted July 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 I'm no lawyer, but I am afraid that Slabyk and all of us supportng his designs so loudly are painting the Sabres into a corner here. Remember a few years back where that guy claimed he submitted logo designs to the Baltimore Ravens and they didn't use them EXACTLY but they were close enough that they had to pay him and change the logo. Basically, because Slabyk made so many variations on this page ... http://www.celsiusdesign.net/sabres/logos.html ... just about anything with a buffalo and crossed swords will be similar. Allegedly, he has met with the Sabres to show them this stuff so he's not just some wacko with a website. Short of going back to the original logo exactly as it was, the Sabres would almost be inviting a lawsuit from Slabyk if they used something similar and didn't compensate him for it. And since they obviously already paid someone else to design a logo, I can't see them flushing that money away and paying Slabyk on top of it. Maybe all our yelling and screaming will get rid of the ugly thing that leaked, but odds are the result is not going to be close to what we want unless they go back to the original ... which would be fine with me but I think unlikely. Just a thought, maybe I am way off base ... But the Ravens never had a logo, while the Sabres did have the original crossed swords. I believe that is their way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Seats Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 If anything, couldn't the Sabres go after Slabyk for using their mark? (Which I hope they don't, clearly everyone wants them to work together). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Why would the Sabres be infringing on Slabyk's rights by using a similar design when it is Slabyk who is borrowing very heavily on the original logo? Short of using the actual Slabyk design, I would think the Sabres are safe in using any variation of their original logo. Remember the rumor was that the Sabres were using the original logo on their third jersey. Perhaps a decision was made early on that the the original logo would not be "modernized" but instead, for the primary jersey, an entirely different approach would be used, cutting Slabyk out of the mix. I've never bought the idea that Slabyk discussing his meeting with Quinn was why his services were not used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 If anything, couldn't the Sabres go after Slabyk for using their mark? (Which I hope they don't, clearly everyone wants them to work together). He's not selling it or making any money off of it, it's just a guy drawing basically ... nothing to go after him for. But if they use his idea and start making money on his design, obviously he would have a case. Granted he IS borrowing heavily from the original, like PA says, so maybe it's no big deal. I was just saying something similar happened before and the Ravens had to pay the guy and make changes so maybe the Sabres want to avoid even the possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Why would the Sabres be infringing on Slabyk's rights by using a similar design when it is Slabyk who is borrowing very heavily on the original logo? Short of using the actual Slabyk design, I would think the Sabres are safe in using any variation of their original logo. Remember the rumor was that the Sabres were using the original logo on their third jersey. Perhaps a decision was made early on that the the original logo would not be "modernized" but instead, for the primary jersey, an entirely different approach would be used, cutting Slabyk out of the mix. I've never bought the idea that Slabyk discussing his meeting with Quinn was why his services were not used. Since Slabyk's designs are originals, and not exact duplicates of any existing Sabres logos, and since he is not an employee of the Sabres, Paychex or HSBC Arena, Slabyk should own the rights to his designs. Logos are generally covered under copyright law, not trademark law (see below) and his copyright protection began at the moment of creation. Putting them up online sort of "validates" his copyright. (http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#what) The dispute would be in the trademark area - if the Sabres can prove that Slabyk's merchandise (should he make any) causes confusion among customers as to which is the official trademark/logo of the Buffalo Sabres, then the team would have a pretty good case for trademark infringement. From http://copylaw.com/new_articles/trademrk.html#test Take the Trademark Infringement Test Copyright infringement requires "substantial similarity" of protected elements, whereas the test for traditional trademark infringement is "confusing similarity." That is, the test for trademark infringement asks whether the ordinary buyer -- not looking for subtle differences or fine details -- would believe both products (or services) came from the same source. The key to trademark infringement is "likelihood of confusion," i.e., whether two marks are sufficiently alike to cause consumer confusion as to their source or origin. Courts consider the following factors in determining likelihood of confusion: 1. Similarity of the conflicting marks; 2. Relatedness or proximity of the two companies; 3. Strength of the senior users mark; 4. Marketing channels used; 5. Degree of care likely to be used by purchasers in selecting the goods; 6. The "second comers" intent in selecting its mark; 7. Evidence of actual confusion; 8. Likelihood of expansion in product lines Caution! The test for trademark infringement is somewhat pliant. Some factors are given more weight than others, and the relative importance of each individual factor will vary on a case-by-case basis. Moreover, these factors are not the only ones a court may consider. TIP: To constitute trademark infringement, the two marks don't have to be exactly alike -- just confusingly similar. Unlike most things in life, close is good enough. Under the Trademark Dilution Act of 1995, which became law in 1996, the owner of a "famous" trademark can now stop someone from using its trademark if it tends to weaken, blur or tarnish the famous mark. Unlike traditional trademark law, which still applies, with trademark dilution you do not have to show any likelihood of confusion over the source or sponsorship of the goods or services. Trademark dilution is described in greater detail later in this article. What Do Trademarks Protect? Trademarks protect consumers from being misled. They ensure free competition by protecting the goodwill of the entity that owns the mark. Unlike copyrights that deal with the marketplace of expressive ideas, trademarks deal with the marketplace of goods and services. A trademark represents the goodwill of a business or a particular manufacturer or producer. Trademark symbols provide powerful source-identifying cues that allow us to make value judgments about the quality of certain goods before we sample them. For example, when we see (and hear) Leo the Lion and the phrase "Ars Gratia Artis" at the beginning of a motion picture, we immediately associate this trademark with "MGM Studios," home of Garbo, Crawford, Gable Tracy and Hepburn, Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland. Similarly, when you see the distinctive shape of a bottle of "Coca-Cola" you know, without having to read the label, what is in inside. Top of Page How Are Trademark Rights Earned? Trademarks are earned not born. They come into being through actual use. Trademarks are an alliance of law and marketing. If there are no prior rights attached to a name, phrase, design or logo, you may be able to asset trademark rights in that particular. That is, the first person to use a word, or symbol in connection with the sale of goods or services may across state lines. Trademarks are protected under both federal and state law. You do not have to register a trademark to have it protected, although there are advantages to doing so (e.g., exclusive nationwide ownership of a mark). By using a "mark" on or in connection with goods, or displaying it in connection with services offered, you can acquire trademark rights. TIP: Make sure you own your logo! Many publishers have hired others to create logos to identify their goods and services. Logos, as graphic designs, are generally protected by copyright law and, unless the person creating it is your employee, they, not you, may actually own it! A written work for hire agreement signed by everyone who will participate in the creation of a logo must be signed before any work begins. Otherwise, you may need to obtain a copyright assignment after the fact granting you all rights, in their design, including the right to use it as your trademark. As for the second part I highlighted in your post ("I've never bought the idea that Slabyk discussing his meeting with Quinn was why his services were not used") -- I've always found that aspect to be a little "off" as well - LQ could have had something else in mind (like the flying mullet) when John came into see him, and when John's designs didn't match his preconceived notion, he probably just filed it away as a waste of his time. To be honest, if I were in LQ's position and I had even the slightest idea that we might want to use those designs, I might have put the legal department to work on the best way to protect the club's potential interest in the logos, as well as making it clear to John that the meeting was confidential and made sure he understood that he was not to discuss the meeting with ANYONE. A lot of coulda, woulda, shoulda there, I know. I just think there is more to the story (on LQ's side) than the "he spoiled our surprise, I'll show him." Maybe I'm wrong, but I hope there is more to it than that. Sorry for the XL-sized post - just wanted to (hopefully) shed some light on the whole copyright vs. trademark debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockjaw70 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 great points, especially when you mentioned if he was to make merchandise, the Sabres and the NHL would most definitely have a case against him. Other than that. he's just "man on the street" showing off his talent, no harm no foul. As for the reason why the Sabres did not use his designs. It is simply two reasons, 1) the team nor the NHL will not use unsolicited designs. period. There are huge contracts in place between Reebok and the NHL, no matter how much the fanbase likes someones designs, simply posting them or sending them into the front office will not get them made. If Reebok had hired him freelance and he revised what he orginally had done or submitted new ideas, then yes by all means he would be in like Flynn. 2) Per the contracts, Reebok has jurisdiction over what gets designed, they work with the teams to hopefully get it right. this is the way it works with Nike and Adidas too. That's it, nothing fancy just plain ol' legal contracts. Now, if the Sabres had come out with something that was very similiar to what John had done, then he'd be looking at a Raven-esque situation. This leads me to think that the meeting with LQ was the Sabres way to cover their a$$es by essentially saying "thanks, but no thanks". We've seen it, we acknowledge it, we're going in a different direction. All in all, the Sabres organization, Tommy B. on down had one thing in mind, they wanted a more iconic, timeless logo they could build a brand and equity with. They referenced the Texans and Bills logos as their benchmarks. Did they get it? Not even close fellas, back to the drawing board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 You bring up a good point about the unsolicited designs; but I am not sure why LQ wouldn't just tell him at the end of the meeting "thanks for the ideas, but per the NHL contract w/Reebok, we cannot accept any unsolicited designs/logos/color schemes" or whatever. I would also hope that our team president isn't too proud to say "you know what, the banana slug was one way to go, but these are much better, and I think the fans will absolutely love these." We know he is a traditionalist, since he jumped on the ice at the alumni game and then had the team roll out in the B&G for the 02-03 season finale. On the other hand, I don't see how Reebok would, or even should, have a say in who is designing the uniforms; rather I 'd expect them to have some input into the design (which colors/designs would work, what won't work, etc.) as well as having to sign off on the final scheme change. Short of LQ rolling out his 8-year-old nephew to create the new logo and color scheme, if the team feels comfortable with a local graphics designer/artist/whoever creating their new look, then Reebok should just make the uniforms and stay out of the decision-making process. I'm not saying Reebok doesn't have a stake in this, since they stand to make (or lose) money based on whether its a crappy design and fans love it or hate it. But if the local designer comes out with a gawd-awful design, its not harm, no foul, since the team can stop the designer in his tracks before the new unis hit the ice and the stores. (According to this Buffalo Business 1st Article, CCM was still the Sabres manufacturer at the time, and there are some interesting facts & quotes in here: http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories...ml?t=printable) Besides, any company who rolled out the skin-tight jerseys for the Olympics shouldn't be allowed to disparage anyone else's designs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockjaw70 Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Reebok, like Nike and Adidas have their own staff of graphic and apparel designers who do the bulk of the work. I kow that on this project, they did ask outside designers to submit concepts for the Sabres based on their direction. It always works like this in the NHL and NFL. For example, when the Broncos changed their logo and unis it was done all in-house by Nike in conjunction with Pat Bowlen and the organization. I'm not quite sure what you mean by the CCM comment, that's 3 years old. All I know is as soon as Reebok got the NHL contract they started to plan changes to put their mark o the game. This Sabres logo has been in the works for almost 2 years. They wanted to get stuff ready before there was a strike, which actually bought them time and they still couldn't get it right. My sources told me that Tommy B. has ADD and every meeting he would change his mind, flip flopping between just going back to the original or moving forward with an evolution of the old and new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopeleslyobvious Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Reebok, like Nike and Adidas have their own staff of graphic and apparel designers who do the bulk of the work. I kow that on this project, they did ask outside designers to submit concepts for the Sabres based on their direction. It always works like this in the NHL and NFL. For example, when the Broncos changed their logo and unis it was done all in-house by Nike in conjunction with Pat Bowlen and the organization. I'm not quite sure what you mean by the CCM comment, that's 3 years old. All I know is as soon as Reebok got the NHL contract they started to plan changes to put their mark o the game. This Sabres logo has been in the works for almost 2 years. They wanted to get stuff ready before there was a strike, which actually bought them time and they still couldn't get it right. My sources told me that Tommy B. has ADD and every meeting he would change his mind, flip flopping between just going back to the original or moving forward with an evolution of the old and new. Do you mean before the lockout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockjaw70 Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 yes, Reebok was working on this before the lockout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 So is this going to be the Sabres plausible deniability? "We didn't do it. Blame Reebox." ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 All we can do is keep making noise ... even if it was official, remember this was the 49ers helmet for one day before the fans flipped out and they scrapped it ... http://www.instantreplaysportcard.com/item...ers%20proto.jpg :o I had no idea! Excellent post. This actually makes me feel slightly better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKnowPhysics Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 So is this going to be the Sabres plausible deniability? "We didn't do it. Blame Reebox." ??? Absolutely not. The only plausible deniability the Sabres have anywhere is for use if they announce the logo and it turns out not to be that piece of shizzle. The cat is TOTALLY out of the bag on this logo, but the organization can't and shouldn't officially confirm it, so that they have an emergency exit from this logo if they feel it's a disaster before it even starts. There is still a slim chance that this is an officially (and secretly) created diversion to keep attention away from a real logo, thus they wouldn't confirm it in order to not be bald-faced liars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp000085 Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Absolutely not. The only plausible deniability the Sabres have anywhere is for use if they announce the logo and it turns out not to be that piece of shizzle. The cat is TOTALLY out of the bag on this logo, but the organization can't and shouldn't officially confirm it, so that they have an emergency exit from this logo if they feel it's a disaster before it even starts. There is still a slim chance that this is an officially (and secretly) created diversion to keep attention away from a real logo, thus they wouldn't confirm it in order to not be bald-faced liars. that's a strong possibility.... also, what if the logo got released "by accident". Maybe that indeed will be the sabres logo this year. There's also been some wind of the ORIGINAL blue and gold as a 3rd jersey for this coming season. if the money talks the way that us fans think it will, there's a strong chance that the 3rd jersey will be made the regular jersey, and the slug and goathead will be the 3rd and 4th jersey. just a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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