Judging the off-season: the big trade(s)

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Ok, I might be wrong here, but I'm going to take a shot at what the logic might be...

The best way to win a cup for Buffalo might be to do something different than what everyone else is. And that 'different' thing is to be able to control the game from the Blue line out better than anyone.

I forgot how long ago it was, but when Canada won Gold in the Olympics a few games ago, they didn't do it by outscoring everyone. They locked the games down.  And that was done through the blue line.  No matter how much talent the other team had, the puck went in to the Canada zone and the Canadian D-men got to the puck first, had the talent to avoid the forecheck, and make that entry pass out (or skate it out) better than we probably have ever seen.

How does that equate to the Sabres? When they MATURE, you put 2 elite D-pairings back there for 70-75% of the game, and you do the same thing at the NHL level.  Slightly above average scoring, slightly above average goaltending may be all you need if the other teams simply cannot control the puck in the offensive zone before your 'talented' guys control the puck and get it out.

Now, is Byram and elite D-man who can do that? Not yet. BUT He has the talent and Skills to do it...maybe with experience he'll have the decision making to go along with it. The thing is, the Sabres Blue-line isn't there yet, but they have the pure talent to get there.

Again, I'm guessing, but that might be one of the plans they are thinking of.

That was the Housley idea and it may very well be the Pegula way, but it won't work. No chance.

Do you really see this D holding up to a Florid style forecheck in the playoffs? I don't. 

Not to mention if you pay Byram you're going to have too much money invested in your D and you will have trouble paying your top forwards down the line. Power is already being paid on faith and hope. 

[PASabreFan]

What big offseason trades?

-PA Van Winkle

[mjd1001]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

That was the Housley idea and it may very well be the Pegula way, but it won't work. No chance.

Do you really see this D holding up to a Florid style forecheck in the playoffs? I don't. 

Not to mention if you pay Byram you're going to have too much money invested in your D and you will have trouble paying your top forwards down the line. Power is already being paid on faith and hope. 

I'm not saying it is going to work, but I think that is what they are going for.  This D will/would look better against that Florida-style-forcecheck as they get older and more experienced.  If you want to eventually be a cup winner, I think you have to TRY something like this (different than what everyone else is doing). 

You are the Buffalo Sabres. You aren't an attractive city for Free agents right now. You aren't going to have the advantage of being in a low-tax area to 'underpay' guys even a little bit.  You aren't on even footing in those ways with Teams from Florida, Texas..or other more 'glamorous' destinations. 

The only time this team was close to sniffing a cup in the past 30 years was when they had, possibly one of the top 5 players in the history of the league playing the most important position (Goalie), and another time when they DID try something different (they put together a young, fast, skilled, SMALL team when the rest of the league was still 'big and physical' and for a window of 2-3 years it worked.) Neither of those times was the team built the same way as all the other top teams. They had to 'zig' when the rest of the league was 'zagging'

I just don't think trying to build a 'well-balanced roster' against the rest of the league's 'well balanced rosters'....going head to head with them..and think its going to work. I think you need to try to create a 'mis-match', find a way to build your roster that is different.  Again, maybe this isn't the way, but we'll find out.

Toronto kinda did this but the opposite. They put a huge focus on creating a 'mismatch' with their forwards, at the expense of assets on D.  Its working 'good enough' for them to be good, but not great.

Edited August 20, 2024 by mjd1001

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, sabremike said:

Any time the puck was in our own end and Byram was on the ice I would repeatedly be performing the sign of the cross. He wasn't just bad, he was awful (like sub-Risto level).

Exactly. The teams isn’t more “complete” at all. That’s literally a paper theory until he’s actually good on ice

It’s like we have been down this road so long we can only value was “is to come”. Casey is better right now. By a lot. I’ll care about the amazing team building logistics of the swap when the actual on ice output is comparable 

like, in the NOW term. I’ll say Byram is better when he’s better. He’s worse right now.

Edited August 19, 2024 by Thorny

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm not saying it is going to work, but I think that is what they are going for.  This D will/would look better against that Florida-style-forcecheck as they get older and more experienced.  If you want to eventually be a cup winner, I think you have to TRY something like this (different than what everyone else is doing). 

I can't agree with that. Hockey's a pretty simple game and the tried and true still wins championships regardless of numerous rule changes and league tweaks. There really is nothing new and one of the Sabres problems has imo been not developing in a traditional way. 

[B-U-F-F-A-L-O]

On 8/18/2024 at 10:29 AM, dudacek said:

As last season slipped away, calls increased for Adams to dip into his rich store of futures and make a move to fix things.

He eventually did, but not in dramatic fashion and not necessarily in the way people were thinking.

Ultimately, the move came in 2 parts and effectively worked out to flipping Casey Mittelstadt and Matt Savoie for Bowen Byram, Ryan McLeod and Tyler Tullio.

Looking at the two trades combined, what do you think of the moves and what kind of impact will they have on the coming season?

The most important trade we can make is no trade. We absolutely have to wait for the right play, end of story.

Also, we really might not need to make a trade at all. The kids are almost there; really and truthfully.

If JJ, TNT and Tuch stay healthy we already have the #1 line we need.

If Quinn can stay healthy and Benson improve in year two, I think we have the #2 line we need. I’m asking Benson for: 15g, 32a…. I think he can do it. I think Cozens could really rise, it’s really on the whole second line growing together which it should. It is also, of course, dependent on the first line being a successful 1st line. I think there is no telling how many goals Quinn might get if Benson takes a step forward, Cozens plays his game and if those two answer the call, they will make it way easier for Benson. Our top six has all hard working, two way players that will excel under Lindy Ruff. 
As far as Casey goes, I think how good he was grows by the day on this board. Sometimes he played really well, other times he’d frustrate the hell out of you. He’s afraid to take it downtown. He’s afraid to shoot which is maddening because he has a great shot and I can’t stand how you can set your watch knowing he’s gonna pull up and go to boards hoping someone comes along to do what he just passed down. I know hardly nothing about his replacement but I have a ton of faith in Lindy Ruff. Pretty sure he knows what he wants and if he wants McLeod get him McLeod. I was Sabre fan that posted over and over again that we need a lot of forwards and that we need a way better bottom six that can help support our skill in a lot of ways and that’s exactly what we’ve done. I feel certain the  whole team is going to buy into  what Lindy Ruff is selling and that our bottom six’s grit will be contagious. We are going to call ourselves the hardest working team in the NHL again this year and that’s what is going to turn this team around.

i don’t think it was any one thing in particular, what it is is the perfect storm.

1. LR hired.

2. Rebuilt strong, fast gritty bottom six.

3. Nearly our entire getting old to really contribute sort of at once.

Dahlin is probably old enough now to take over as captain. He is also old enough for his game to really mature and hit his prime.

Power and Byram have enough experience now to take a big step. Plus they have Ruff and his vastly superior systems. They all know eachother finally. Everyone is integrated. We have real depth for the first time in RYJO, Gilbert and Bryson. We have very good partners for our three defensive stars in Joker, Sammy and CC….

Im telling you you can go thru the whole roster like this connecting it all and we never had close to this years and years….

From TNT to Krebs, Rousek, Rosen and Kulich on offense….

On 8/19/2024 at 6:22 AM, Pimlach said:

We already had the 3rd line center who was capable and skilled enough to move up to 2 or 1.   We will see how good Byram actually is this season, if he is really good then signing him will be the next challenge.   
 

Seems like a roundabout way to build when what we really needed is a stay at home RHD.  We have puck movers (Dahlin, Power, Joker, Johnson).  

 

[PASabreFan]

Maybe someone will answer this time and help a faltering old fella out.

What two big offseason KA trades are we evaluating here?

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

Maybe someone will answer this time and help a faltering old fella out.

What two big offseason KA trades are we evaluating here?

Ok fellow old fella', 

1.  Malenstyn acquired for a 2nd rounder in trade 

2.  McLeod and Tullio (AHL) for Savoie 

Zucker, Abe-Kubel, Lafferty were FA signings. 

Much of the discussion is the deadline trade, Bryam for Mitts.  McLeod is the finishing portion of that trade since we got a center back.

Evaluate:    Mitts and Savoie vs Byram and McLeod.  Are we better? 

Edited August 21, 2024 by Pimlach

[PASabreFan]

52 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Ok fellow old fella', 

1.  Malenstyn acquired for a 2nd rounder in trade 

2.  McLeod and Tullio (AHL) for Savoie 

Zucker, Abe-Kubel, Lafferty were FA signings. 

Much of the discussion is the deadline trade, Bryam for Mitts.  McLeod is the finishing portion of that trade since we got a center back.

Evaluate:    Mitts and Savoie vs Byram and McLeod.  Are we better? 

So two offseason trades, one of which is objectively not a big trade and the other only in Buffalo could subjectively be called a big trade.

Give me a break with the thread title.

Now let me nod off again.

[nfreeman]

5 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

So two offseason trades, one of which is objectively not a big trade and the other only in Buffalo could subjectively be called a big trade.

Give me a break with the thread title.

Now let me nod off again.

The guys on the team might get out of shape during the summer, but it's good to know some SabreSpacers remain razor sharp.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

So two offseason trades, one of which is objectively not a big trade and the other only in Buffalo could subjectively be called a big trade.

Give me a break with the thread title.

Now let me nod off again.

The Mitts-Byram deadline trade was a big one IMO.   The McLeod trade was important to replenish the center spline and trading a 7OA 9OA top prospect is no small matter.  

The thread title may not be to your liking but the topic of "Mitts and Savoie vs Byram and McLeod" is certainly a good off season discussion. 

I can't wait to see what Lindy does with this group.   No nodding of for me.  

Muscle Weight!   

 

Edited August 21, 2024 by Pimlach

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

The Mitts-Byram deadline trade was a big one IMO.   The McLeod trade was important to replenish the center spline and trading a 7OA top prospect is no small matter.  

The thread title may not be to your liking but the topic of "Mitts and Savoie vs Byram and McLeod" is certainly a good off season discussion. 

I can't wait to see what Lindy does with this group.   No nodding of for me.  

Muscle Weight!   

 

9th overall

[Thorny]

6 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Maybe someone will answer this time and help a faltering old fella out.

What two big offseason KA trades are we evaluating here?

Didn’t you hear? We won the “big trade” because we didn’t make one 

The most important thing was not doing it 

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The Mitts-Byram deadline trade was a big one IMO.   The McLeod trade was important to replenish the center spline and trading a 7OA 9OA top prospect is no small matter.  

The thread title may not be to your liking but the topic of "Mitts and Savoie vs Byram and McLeod" is certainly a good off season discussion. 

I can't wait to see what Lindy does with this group.   No nodding of for me.  

Muscle Weight!   

 

I could be wrong, but to me the unspoken (and often spoken) connotation of the “big trade” was cashing in a package of futures for a big time “now” player, the reverse of the ROR to STL trade.

Mitts / Byram to me aspires to be a “hockey trade”. A realignment of current talent in the name of team building rather than a strict, severe increase in talent.

i think the big trade was more so viewed as the one that added now at the expense of later. If any deal applies it’s probably McLeod and Savoie. The haul was just less than expected/projected/hoped for ala a top 6 level player 

Edited August 21, 2024 by Thorny

[Pimlach]

17 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I could be wrong, but to me the unspoken (and often spoken) connotation of the “big trade” was cashing in a package of futures for a big time “now” player, the reverse of the ROR to STL trade.

Mitts / Byram to me aspires to be a “hockey trade”. A realignment of current talent in the name of team building rather than a strict, severe increase in talent.

i think the big trade was more so viewed as the one that added now at the expense of later. If any deal applies it’s probably McLeod and Savoie. The haul was just less than expected/projected/hoped for ala a top 6 level player 

No way am I hung up on the "big trade or a medium trade" jargon.  The Sabres had a massive hole to fill with Mitts gone.  Krebs showed us he is not ready for 3C.   Neither are any of the prospects so far.  Acquiring McLeod was big for this team, if people think that is a bad reflection on the team I won't argue that.  

Savoie is not yet a top 6.  He could be a star with the Oilers someday, or he could be a Tyler Ennis type of player, but the Sabres were strapped with a need for a veteran center and McLeod was the best Adams could do at this time.  

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

No way am I hung up on the "big trade or a medium trade" jargon.  The Sabres had a massive hole to fill with Mitts gone.  Krebs showed us he is not ready for 3C.   Neither are any of the prospects so far.  Acquiring McLeod was big for this team, if people think that is a bad reflection on the team I won't argue that.  

Savoie is not yet a top 6.  He could be a star with the Oilers someday, or he could be a Tyler Ennis type of player, but the Sabres were strapped with a need for a veteran center and McLeod was the best Adams could do at this time.  

Nah, I’m not saying Savoie was top 6. I’m saying the connotation of “big trade” was a top 6 level player 

Coming back our way 

Arguing McLeod is a big trade because for us it’s big because we had no 3C is semantics 

You know what I mean. At least hopefully now that I’ve clarified 

[FrenchConnection44]

I am mixed on the Casey M trade. Doesn't look like we got much for that but we'll see. I've never been a fan of early talent / drop off / reclamation projects (Byram). Those always look potentially great on paper but rarely turn out the way fans want in multiple sports (football, hockey, etc.). We shall see. 

The Savoie - McLeod trade ... meh. We'll see how McLeod does. Big difference playing as the 3rd C on a team with McDavid and Draisaitl 1 & 2, vs the Sabres. You just have to be close to or even a little under the +/- mark and your team will be fine. 

Really was hoping for more but we won't be able to judge the outcome until next year. 

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, Thorny said:

Nah, I’m not saying Savoie was top 6. I’m saying the connotation of “big trade” was a top 6 level player 

Coming back our way 

Arguing McLeod is a big trade because for us it’s big because we had no 3C is semantics 

You know what I mean. At least hopefully now that I’ve clarified 

[sabremike]

Always a great sign of how your offseason went when virtually nobody in the entire sport thinks you will make the playoffs this upcoming season.

[Taro T]

9 hours ago, sabremike said:

Always a great sign of how your offseason went when virtually nobody in the entire sport thinks you will make the playoffs this upcoming season.

We talkin' about Vancouver last year?  😉 

Somebody is going to get into the playoffs in the east that isn't expected to do so.  It could be the Sabres.  They need a couple of things to break their way, but it's possible.  (And no, am not happy that it's merely possible rather than probable.  Still am hoping for 1 more piece to get brought in some time in September to move it a little closer to probable.)

[PASabreFan]

Narrator: It wasn't an offseason trade.

[Pimlach]

33 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Narrator: It wasn't an offseason trade.

Still stickling on the fine details of the thread title?  

It’s time for you to graduate.