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Forwards going to/crashing the net


mjd1001

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Who in this forward group "goes to the net"?

The only way I know of to track that is to look at one of the charts of each player, where they take the shots from, and which ones are taken from the 'front of the net'.

I looked at the charts of each player up to today, and wanted to see which player takes the greatest percentage of their shots from the "high danger" area. (Basically form a triangle from each goal post to the faceoff dots, then draw a line connecting the faceoff dots, and seeing what percentage of thier shots are taken from that 'in close/in front of the net' area)

So maybe some guys are better from the wings and are told not to go to the net.  But, to see who actually DOES to to that 5-7 foot 'tough' area in front of the net and see how often they get shots off, here goes:

 

Benson  47.5%

Girgensons  42%

Skinner 32%

Tuch  30.5%

Okposo 30%

Cozens  29% (last year he was at 33%)

Mitts   27%

Peterka  24.6%

Thompson 24% (Last year he was at 30%)

Greenway 24%

Quinn 21.6%

VO   19.6%

Krebs  18.4%

 

I got the data from:  https://edge.nhl.com/en/skater/20232024-regular-8477949

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mjd1001
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16 minutes ago, OverPowerYou said:

We all regret bashing Thomas Vanek and Paul Gaustad. Man would I love to have them back. They were phenomenal in front of the net. Those guys would take a beating for the team 

For those older fans...Andreychuk. he took a bigger beating than Vanek and Gausted combined....and all he did was score from there. But as a kid...I remember so many people wanting to get rid of him because he wasn't a good skater ..didn't score pretty goals....Dave Garbagetruck people would call him.

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16 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

For those older fans...Andreychuk. he took a bigger beating than Vanek and Gausted combined....and all he did was score from there. But as a kid...I remember so many people wanting to get rid of him because he wasn't a good skater ..didn't score pretty goals....Dave Garbagetruck people would call him.

I never could understand that epithet for Andreychuk.  Phil Esposito was the ultimate garbage man.

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1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

For those older fans...Andreychuk. he took a bigger beating than Vanek and Gausted combined....and all he did was score from there. But as a kid...I remember so many people wanting to get rid of him because he wasn't a good skater ..didn't score pretty goals....Dave Garbagetruck people would call him.

So did Jim Lorentz before Andy.  Always to the net, one way or another he would get there. 

Edited by Pimlach
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5 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Who in this forward group "goes to the net"?

The only way I know of to track that is to look at one of the charts of each player, where they take the shots from, and which ones are taken from the 'front of the net'.

I looked at the charts of each player up to today, and wanted to see which player takes the greatest percentage of their shots from the "high danger" area. (Basically form a triangle from each goal post to the faceoff dots, then draw a line connecting the faceoff dots, and seeing what percentage of thier shots are taken from that 'in close/in front of the net' area)

So maybe some guys are better from the wings and are told not to go to the net.  But, to see who actually DOES to to that 5-7 foot 'tough' area in front of the net and see how often they get shots off, here goes:

 

Benson  47.5%

Girgensons  42%

Skinner 32%

Tuch  30.5%

Okposo 30%

Cozens  29% (last year he was at 33%)

Mitts   27%

Peterka  24.6%

Thompson 24% (Last year he was at 30%)

Greenway 24%

Quinn 21.6%

VO   19.6%

Krebs  18.4%

I got the data from:  https://edge.nhl.com/en/skater/20232024-regular-8477949

 

The #'s are a bit misleading though. Benson may lead in the % of his shots that are from the 5-7 foot tough area, but if you apply the %'s from the data you highlight, he is 6th on the team in the number of shots from the 5-7 foot tough area.  The top 6 are:

Skinner 46

Cozens 36

Peterka 34

Tuch 33

Thompson 32

Benson 29

 

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6 hours ago, OverPowerYou said:

We all regret bashing Thomas Vanek and Paul Gaustad. Man would I love to have them back. They were phenomenal in front of the net. Those guys would take a beating for the team 

True, too bad Vanek had the entire organisation thrust on his shoulders after black sunday.

But do you know who I really miss in front of the net? Dave-Freakin’-Andreychuk.

Big, heavy, slow as hell, lumbering Dave! God, this team needs a Dave….

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6 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

The #'s are a bit misleading though. Benson may lead in the % of his shots that are from the 5-7 foot tough area, but if you apply the %'s from the data you highlight, he is 6th on the team in the number of shots from the 5-7 foot tough area.  The top 6 are:

Skinner 46

Cozens 36

Peterka 34

Tuch 33

Thompson 32

Benson 29

 

I appreciate the OP and the links. But this is a better measure because Benson doesn’t get off a ton of shots. 

These stats are such a low number they don’t paint a statistically valid picture of who is going to the net. Benson doesn’t shoot from far out which is wise because when you look at his shot speed (and his skating speed) both are incredibly slow. 

It’s hard not to like Benson because of the way he plays with such excellent intangibles for a rookie. But I have to wonder if he will become a great player with such a slow skate speed and shot. Especially as small as he is. With a shot that slow he shouldn’t shoot outside of 7 feet. 😉

It will be interesting to see if he can improve that very much. But I suspect those variables are why he fell in the draft. kid desperately needs to get stronger. A player can get away with a weaker shot speed if it’s hyper accurate and if he skates fast. Or vice versa. Or has size and is physical. Tough to overcome none of those. 

We need team speed. We play a very slow game. And we have a lot of slow players. Just put on one of our games side by side compared to a team like the Oilers. You’ll find yourself saying, “Oh, so that’s the speed an NHL game is supposed to look like.” Speed isn’t everything; a great scheme, defensive system can overcome. But we don’t have any of that. 
 

IMG_5754.thumb.png.43dd6824cba7239ca1dbd0554d135c1a.png

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2 hours ago, FrenchConnection44 said:

I appreciate the OP and the links. But this is a better measure because Benson doesn’t get off a ton of shots. 

These stats are such a low number they don’t paint a statistically valid picture of who is going to the net. Benson doesn’t shoot from far out which is wise because when you look at his shot speed (and his skating speed) both are incredibly slow. 

It’s hard not to like Benson because of the way he plays with such excellent intangibles for a rookie. But I have to wonder if he will become a great player with such a slow skate speed and shot. Especially as small as he is. With a shot that slow he shouldn’t shoot outside of 7 feet. 😉

It will be interesting to see if he can improve that very much. But I suspect those variables are why he fell in the draft. kid desperately needs to get stronger. A player can get away with a weaker shot speed if it’s hyper accurate and if he skates fast. Or vice versa. Or has size and is physical. Tough to overcome none of those. 

We need team speed. We play a very slow game. And we have a lot of slow players. Just put on one of our games side by side compared to a team like the Oilers. You’ll find yourself saying, “Oh, so that’s the speed an NHL game is supposed to look like.” Speed isn’t everything; a great scheme, defensive system can overcome. But we don’t have any of that. 
 

IMG_5754.thumb.png.43dd6824cba7239ca1dbd0554d135c1a.png

In a lot of ways Benson reminds me of Reinhart early in his career.  A high hockey IQ, responsible in all areas, good playmaker but lacking in the speed/size/strength combo to fully flourish (though Reinhart is bigger).  Reinhart, who was the 2nd overall pick and who was 8 months older than Benson at the time of their drafts, went back to junior for what was his 19 year old season.  This year we opted not to send Benson back for his 18 year old season.

In time I think Benson will develop similar to Reinhart.  I don't mean he will ever have a year like Reinhart is having this year, but Benson will be a very good top-six winger with probably a bit more hate in his game.

Regardless, my frustration is that Benson should have been an asset left in junior where his strengths are highlighted and where the mystery remains about how his weaknesses will translate to the NHL game (for that matter, I think he should have been a long-shot to make the team next season).  By keeping him in the NHL, we have highlighted his weaknesses (he is small, slow and has a weak shot).  He has 1 assist in his last 16 games. He should have been in the mix (with Rosen, Kulich, Savoie and Östlund) as a high-end prospect that we are willing to move in exchange for legitimate veteran help.  As is, we have committed to having a 19 year old in our line-up next season who to this point has shown he is not ready to consistently contribute on offence.  More than any other move by Adams, this unforced error has caused me to question where he is taking the team.  

Edited by Archie Lee
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Benson's shot and speed will get better as he gains strength. In a few years he'll be fine, just like most top players who don't make it to the NHL until they're 21-22.

Now, should he be in the NHL this season? He was really good in training camp. Should that have mattered versus say...  Olofsson or Rousek or an experienced UFA grinder for the bottom 6 as the #12-13F?

6 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said:

Not attacking the OP but none of this matters. They are way out of a playoff spot and only a few games left while being unable to put a streak together the whole season.

Looking at stats like these do nothing to provide insight. The eye test says it all.

A couple games before the All-Star Break, JJP and (Cozens? probably? Maybe even Quinn) had a 2-on-1 break. JJP was ahead and dropped the puck back. Instead of driving the net and being available for a tip, rebound, screen, diversion of the goalie, and general chaos, he floated off toward the corner for a sharp-angle one-timer feed. He took himself out of the play except for a perfect pass. The defenseman was able to focus on the other skater. The goalie didn't have anyone near him.

JJP is one of our best and brightest and has a future as a middle-6 20-goal/season guy, but it felt so gross to watch him just... float away. With the rest of the garbage.

Edited by DarthEbriate
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38 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

In a lot of ways Benson reminds me of Reinhart early in his career.  A high hockey IQ, responsible in all areas, good playmaker but lacking in the speed/size/strength combo to fully flourish (though Reinhart is bigger).  Reinhart, who was the 2nd overall pick and who was 8 months older than Benson at the time of their drafts, went back to junior for what was his 19 year old season.  This year we opted not to send Benson back for his 18 year old season.

In time I think Benson will develop similar to Reinhart.  I don't mean he will ever have a year like Reinhart is having this year, but Benson will be a very good top-six winger with probably a bit more hate in his game.

Regardless, my frustration is that Benson should have been an asset left in junior where his strengths are highlighted and where the mystery remains about how his weaknesses will translate to the NHL game (for that matter, I think he should have been a long-shot to make the team next season).  By keeping him in the NHL, we have highlighted his weaknesses (he is small, slow and has a weak shot).  He has 1 assist in his last 16 games. He should have been in the mix (with Rosen, Kulich, Savoie and Östlund) as a high-end prospect that we are willing to move in exchange for legitimate veteran help.  As is, we have committed to having a 19 year old in our line-up next season who to this point has shown he is not ready to consistently contribute on offence.  More than any other move by Adams, this unforced error has caused me to question where he is taking the team.  

The bold is spot on.  Good NHL teams bring their prospects up slower.  Adam’s inability to field a roster that is not  filled with boarderline players (JAGs) makes it tempting to move young players up too fast. 
 

Power is another example of a kid being asked to do way too much.  

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9 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

Benson's shot and speed will get better as he gains strength. In a few years he'll be fine, just like most top players who don't make it to the NHL until they're 21-22.

Now, should he be in the NHL this season? He was really good in training camp. Should that have mattered versus say...  Olofsson or Rousek or an experienced UFA grinder for the bottom 6 as the #12-13F?

A couple games before the All-Star Break, JJP and (Cozens? probably? Maybe even Quinn) had a 2-on-1 break. JJP was ahead and dropped the puck back. Instead of driving the net and being available for a tip, rebound, screen, diversion of the goalie, and general chaos, he floated off toward the corner for a sharp-angle one-timer feed. He took himself out of the play except for a perfect pass. The defenseman was able to focus on the other skater. The goalie didn't have anyone near him.

JJP is one of our best and brightest and has a future as a middle-6 20-goal/season guy, but it felt so gross to watch him just... float away. With the rest of the garbage.

I'm gonna lay off this topic after this post as I don't want to come across as obsessed with my views on Benson being in the NHL.  To be clear, I really like Zach Benson as a hockey player.  

To the bolded, I do think Adams and Granato got fooled by the kid with the most confidence. Benson's confidence is off the charts and his personality fills a room.  If he came to any of our houses on Christmas day, within an hour he would be greeting people at the door and asking them what they want to drink.  Kulich and Rosen I think showed up at camp feeling the pressure of maybe needing to take the next step and like a lot of young players, they wilted a bit.  That's not to say they lack confidence, just that their confidence levels are closer to normal.  None of this is a criticism of Benson.  That confidence and his personality type will serve him well in surviving this crap-show of a season.  But Adams and Granato tricked themselves into thinking the kid was ready. 

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7 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said:

Not attacking the OP but none of this matters. They are way out of a playoff spot and only a few games left while being unable to put a streak together the whole season.

Looking at stats like these do nothing to provide insight. The eye test says it all.

I know the data is imperfect, but I thought it would at least mean a little bit, and more importantly a point of discussion on here other than the 'fire Adams' or "fire Granto' threads.

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32 minutes ago, Marvin said:

All I found are high-end cigarettes.  That does not fit the comment.

Benson and Hedges are a cigarettes brand

Hedge - (Verb) Limit or confine oneself.  Protect by compensation.  

The verb "hedges" can also describe the way the team plays.  

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22 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Benson and Hedges are a cigarettes brand

Hedge - (Verb) Limit or confine oneself.  Protect by compensation.  

The verb "hedges" can also describe the way the team plays.  

Ah, I see.

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