matter2003 Posted July 27, 2023 Report Share Posted July 27, 2023 Thought he would get more than that...Sens seem intent on making splashes with the new ownership group in charge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted July 27, 2023 Report Share Posted July 27, 2023 I’d wager that the more we see the Ottawas the Red Wings of the division employ “go for it, win now” strategies ie more splashy/significant additions from the outside, the *more* we adhere to the draft and dev strategy and the more we actively avoid other options. Ie the market is even more served/cornered by those teams leaving KA no option in his mind than to retreat further into his chosen pathway Ie it’ll always be an anti-arms race with Kevyn. The more teams “beef up” the more inclined he’d be to stand pat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tom webster Posted July 28, 2023 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 29 minutes ago, Thorny said: I’d wager that the more we see the Ottawas the Red Wings of the division employ “go for it, win now” strategies ie more splashy/significant additions from the outside, the *more* we adhere to the draft and dev strategy and the more we actively avoid other options. Ie the market is even more served/cornered by those teams leaving KA no option in his mind than to retreat further into his chosen pathway Ie it’ll always be an anti-arms race with Kevyn. The more teams “beef up” the more inclined he’d be to stand pat Again, all these pats on the back for him standing pat with his plan flies in the face of what I know to be true. He has tried, and failed to improve the team this off-season. Players have refused to wave, he has placed a higher value on his prospects, teams have asked for more then he perceives as value, other teams paid more then he wanted. Bottom line, if the team enters this season as currently constituted, it won’t be because Kevyn wanted it that way, it will be because he couldn’t make anything happen. Don’t get me wrong. This doesn’t necessarily mean they will fail. Some of the best deals teams persue are ones they don’t complete. It just means that he knows this team needs improvement but hasn’t been able to address it. 5 2 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matter2003 Posted July 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Thorny said: I’d wager that the more we see the Ottawas the Red Wings of the division employ “go for it, win now” strategies ie more splashy/significant additions from the outside, the *more* we adhere to the draft and dev strategy and the more we actively avoid other options. Ie the market is even more served/cornered by those teams leaving KA no option in his mind than to retreat further into his chosen pathway Ie it’ll always be an anti-arms race with Kevyn. The more teams “beef up” the more inclined he’d be to stand pat I don't necessarily agree with this. I think he stands pat because years of empirical data show that most free agent signings are not good value for the money and the teams would probably have been better drafting and developing and signing lower priced FAs to fill roles. When you just promoted 6-7 very highly rated prospects to your NHL roster and you STILL have the #1 rated prospect pool in the NHL why wouldn't you stick to what you are doing? Edited July 28, 2023 by matter2003 6 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matter2003 Posted July 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, tom webster said: Again, all these pats on the back for him standing pat with his plan flies in the face of what I know to be true. He has tried, and failed to improve the team this off-season. Players have refused to wave, he has placed a higher value on his prospects, teams have asked for more then he perceives as value, other teams paid more then he wanted. Bottom line, if the team enters this season as currently constituted, it won’t be because Kevyn wanted it that way, it will be because he couldn’t make anything happen. Don’t get me wrong. This doesn’t necessarily mean they will fail. Some of the best deals teams persue are ones they don’t complete. It just means that he knows this team needs improvement but hasn’t been able to address it. Signing Clifton will be a large upgrade no matter how you slice it. That alone means we improved. When the team is so young, much of the improvement should be expected to come internally. Add to that he STILL has the #1 ranked prospect pool even tho a ridiculous number of young players were removed from it the last few years as they began playing regularly for the Sabres and he has every reason to stand pat. Edited July 28, 2023 by matter2003 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, tom webster said: Again, all these pats on the back for him standing pat with his plan flies in the face of what I know to be true. He has tried, and failed to improve the team this off-season. Players have refused to wave, he has placed a higher value on his prospects, teams have asked for more then he perceives as value, other teams paid more then he wanted. Bottom line, if the team enters this season as currently constituted, it won’t be because Kevyn wanted it that way, it will be because he couldn’t make anything happen. Don’t get me wrong. This doesn’t necessarily mean they will fail. Some of the best deals teams persue are ones they don’t complete. It just means that he knows this team needs improvement but hasn’t been able to address it. Semantics. Not wanting them enough is functionally the same as not wanting them. Of COURSE he’s in on things, are you speaking to the board at large, or me? I’ve said countless times it’s not that he’s not interested, or doesn’t try, it’s that he doesn’t break on his valuations. That’s kinda what YOU are saying, no? It’s still a choice. If that unfolds, he couldn’t make anything happen *by choice*, because he wouldn’t break his terms. His chosen terms. Edited July 28, 2023 by Thorny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 22 minutes ago, matter2003 said: I don't necessarily agree with this. I think he stands pat because years of empirical data show that most free agent signings are not good value for the money and the teams would probably have been better drafting and developing and signing lower priced FAs to fill roles. When you just promoted 6-7 very highly rated prospects to your NHL roster and you STILL have the #1 rated prospect pool in the NHL why wouldn't you stick to what you are doing? Again, this is sort of my point. If Kevyn *already* had a predisposition to “doing what he’s been doing”, the more the market gets inflated by teams looking to make something happen, the LESS likely KA finds that odd move that meets his exact value requirements, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 I’m amused by all this “number one prospect pool” talk and I have an honest question. Have any Stanley Cup winners had the number one prospects pool within five years of winning the Cup? I’m not even sure where to look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 25 minutes ago, Thorny said: Semantics. Not wanting them enough is functionally the same as not wanting them. Of COURSE he’s in on things, are you speaking to the board at large, or me? I’ve said countless times it’s not that he’s not interested, or doesn’t try, it’s that he doesn’t break on his valuations. That’s kinda what YOU are saying, no? It’s still a choice. If that unfolds, he couldn’t make anything happen *by choice*, because he wouldn’t break his terms. His chosen terms. History shows that it’s more likely that he’s overvaluing his prospects then he’s judiciously sticking to his valuations. And I’m not speaking just to you, but the board at large. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, tom webster said: History shows that it’s more likely that he’s overvaluing his prospects then he’s judiciously sticking to his valuations. And I’m not speaking just to you, but the board at large. I don’t really see a meaningful distinction between the two, in this case. Valuations includes his analysis of his prospects Edited July 28, 2023 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 15 minutes ago, tom webster said: I’m amused by all this “number one prospect pool” talk and I have an honest question. Have any Stanley Cup winners had the number one prospects pool within five years of winning the Cup? I’m not even sure where to look. I am gonna try to check this out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 1 hour ago, tom webster said: Again, all these pats on the back for him standing pat with his plan flies in the face of what I know to be true. He has tried, and failed to improve the team this off-season. Players have refused to wave, he has placed a higher value on his prospects, teams have asked for more then he perceives as value, other teams paid more then he wanted. Bottom line, if the team enters this season as currently constituted, it won’t be because Kevyn wanted it that way, it will be because he couldn’t make anything happen. Don’t get me wrong. This doesn’t necessarily mean they will fail. Some of the best deals teams persue are ones they don’t complete. It just means that he knows this team needs improvement but hasn’t been able to address it. Not couldn’t. Didn’t. As you’ve stated above, the price was too steep, he’s valuing his prospects to high, he didn’t get value. Not making the playoffs this season should be a fireable offense. Full stop. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Weave said: Not couldn’t. Didn’t. As you’ve stated above, the price was too steep, he’s valuing his prospects to high, he didn’t get value. Not making the playoffs this season should be a fireable offense. Full stop. Totally agree on the first bits IMO he should necessarily fail twice before getting canned. Waiting until year 4 to expect any kind of results certainty shrinks the amount of runway he has to deliver at the end, but he shouldn’t be fired if we miss the playoffs this year. Coming back the next season and again missing, like ya, you’ve missed 5 straight years and contributed 36% of our historic 14 year straight playoff drought, that’s not job well done, why should he be the GM. Missing this year just gets him on the hot seat for the following, again imo. Speaking outside my own viewpoint, zero chance he gets canned after this year if we miss. Edited July 28, 2023 by Thorny 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msw2112 Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 23 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: I am gonna try to check this out This is off-the-cuff, but the Avalanche team that won the Stanley Cup two years ago was built along the lines that the Sabres are being built. I don't know if their prospect pool was rated #1, but I suspect it was somewhere near the top. In contrast, the Vegas that won this past season was built around veterans from other franchises. Of course, they were an expansion team, so there was no pre-existing prospect pool from which to build. Either method could be successful - it's more about properly executing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 38 minutes ago, Thorny said: I don’t really see a meaningful distinction between the two, in this case. Valuations includes his analysis of his prospects But valuations aren’t an exact science. The Rangers valuation of prospects has proven wrong. Players they felt were untouchable during the Eichel negotiations may not even sniff the NHL. Even if Adams is right about the quality of his prospects, is refusing to upgrade the roster by trading guys who may never impact the NHL roster prudent? Only time will tell. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 18 minutes ago, Thorny said: Totally agree on the first bits IMO he should necessarily fail twice before getting canned. Waiting until year 4 to expect any kind of results certainty shrinks the amount of runway he has to deliver at the end, but he shouldn’t be fired if we miss the playoffs this year. Coming back the next season and again missing, like ya, you’ve missed 5 straight years and contributed 36% of our historic 14 year straight playoff drought, that’s not job well done, why should he be the GM. Missing this year just gets him on the hot seat for the following, again imo. Speaking outside my own viewpoint, zero chance he gets canned after this year if we miss. I expect there is 0 chance of leadership change if we miss the playoffs as well. But *I* have very limited circumstances where failure to make the playoffs this season is excusable at all. We are at a point where the core is now identified and developed, we have good support pieces, and a fully stocked cupboard. The holes that need to be filled are obvious to all. If you are at the point where the holes are few and obvious, the solutions attainable, and you have excess assets…….. the runway should be very short. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabresparaavida Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 13 minutes ago, tom webster said: But valuations aren’t an exact science. The Rangers valuation of prospects has proven wrong. Players they felt were untouchable during the Eichel negotiations may not even sniff the NHL. Even if Adams is right about the quality of his prospects, is refusing to upgrade the roster by trading guys who may never impact the NHL roster prudent? Only time will tell. I don’t think Adams is completely set against trading his prospects, it just has to do more with timing. The Sabres have a good shot at the playoffs next season, and I believe Kevyn Adams expects this team to make it. I also believe, as I’m sure Kevyn Adams does, that this team has a very slim chance at the cup, and the chances would still be very slim this year almost regardless who this team brings in. The team has nearly no playoff experience. We also haven’t seen consistent good defensive play, which spells for big trouble come playoff time. If we had the splashiest offseason, it might move us from a 2%chance to a 3% chance of winning the cup. Unless there are good, cost controlled assets with some term available, sending out prospects right now doesn’t make a ton of sense. This could change if we breakout like New Jersey did last year, and maybe it makes sense for some moves mid-season, but right now, the long term plan still looks like the better priority. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthEbriate Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 Really solid top-6 player, but I think the injuries have probably started him down that slippery slope. I don't think he replaces DeBrincat's goals or production this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalonill Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 Embarrassing he would have been a great replacement for jack Quinn. Adams just away from the summer that doesn’t give a ***** 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said: I am gonna try to check this out I'd start with Pittsburgh (twice), Chicago, and the Avs (hat tip to the poster above, I didn't think of that one). But "#1 ranked prospect pool" isn't exactly an objective science, so it might be tough to really find consistent quality rankings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 11 minutes ago, MattPie said: I'd start with Pittsburgh (twice), Chicago, and the Avs (hat tip to the poster above, I didn't think of that one). But "#1 ranked prospect pool" isn't exactly an objective science, so it might be tough to really find consistent quality rankings. I'm going to look at 1 or 2 major outlets that do these rankings every year, check the histories, and see what the teams do after finishing 1 (or maybe top 3) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 Kevyn should be fired if a.) we miss the playoffs AND b.) we miss for reasons that we are all hand-wringing about right now when there is still time to fix them, because those things have been broken since he got here a long time ago If the Sabres play good hockey, get good goaltending, but miss in a strong conference with a key injury or two (Like missing Tage for 40 games, or losing Levi for the stretch run and missing by a point without the goaltending completely cratering without him), i wouldn't fire him, but would move him to the hot seat If we make the playoffs, we are back and I will judge him on the same timeline every good franchise judges their gm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAud Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 At $5M for 1 year I’d have liked to see Tarasenko replace Quinn while he’s out and GMKA could have offered a team to 4th round pick to take VO off the roster. So there would effectively be zero incremental cap hit but the team would be upgraded this season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 7 minutes ago, TheAud said: So there would effectively be zero incremental cap hit but the team would be upgraded this season. I think you're overselling Tarasenko. I don't think he's clearly an upgrade over Olofsson, especially with his injury history which seems to be impacting his play still. In fact I think if you put Tarasenko in Quinn's spot he wouldn't score as much as Olofsson in Quinn's spot. I wouldn't be surprised to see Tarasenko miss 25% or more of the season due to injury. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAud Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 12 minutes ago, Doohickie said: I think you're overselling Tarasenko. I don't think he's clearly an upgrade over Olofsson, especially with his injury history which seems to be impacting his play still. In fact I think if you put Tarasenko in Quinn's spot he wouldn't score as much as Olofsson in Quinn's spot. I wouldn't be surprised to see Tarasenko miss 25% or more of the season due to injury. I might be, I have always liked Tarasenko and he has had some injuries. But I would go for the upside and experience on a 1-year bet. It was only the season before last that he put up 34g and 48a in 75 games, his 6th season over 30 goals. He'll turn 32 this season which isn't by any means young, but guys with elite talent like Tarasenko can often be productive well into their 30's. And a guy who scored between 33 and 40 goals every year for 5 seasons (2014-15 through 2018-19) is, or was, elite. Maybe Olofsson will score more this year, but his best goal scoring season last year at 28 would be Tarasenko's 7th best season, and unlike VO: He's no Selke contender but I believe Tarasenko plays something that resembles defense He has 44 goals in 97 NHL playoff games...something that might be nice to have on the team come next Spring Doesn't matter...KA isn't going to make a move like this anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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