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How bad is Casey Mittelstadt?


dudacek
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6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

What does this mean? Size?

They certainly don't lack high energy or fast skating. 

Body movers, players on the front end that can use their weight to win physical battles, puck battles. Players on the back end that can use their body to separate the opponent from the puck, successfully clear the front of the net.

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11 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

Body movers, players on the front end that can use their weight to win physical battles, puck battles. Players on the back end that can use their body to separate the opponent from the puck, successfully clear the front of the net.

I don't agree. We win plenty of battles and our defense is hefty with the exception of Bryson. In fact I watched Cozens win a battle just the other day which resulted in the game winner. 

Boosh, Dahlin, Joker, Samuelsson, Power are all 6' or taller and 200lbs or larger. 

Edited by LGR4GM
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23 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't agree. We win plenty of battles and our defense is hefty with the exception of Bryson. In fact I watched Cozens win a battle just the other day which resulted in the game winner. 

Boosh, Dahlin, Joker, Samuelsson, Power are all 6' or taller and 200lbs or larger. 

Your equating height to weight, or body mass. Being tall doesn't equate to the ability to use body mass for puck protection/control, or the ability to clear the front of the net.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

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Posted (edited)

In the games i watch, there seems to be a decided de-emphasis on big bodies getting to the front of the net while players pound away from the outside looking for screens, rebounds and deflections.

Goals seem to be more the result of movement creating holes that are then exploited by players darting into them. Goalie get beat by making them move laterally.

It's never an either/or thing, but under current trends, successful defence seems more about pressuring the puck and anticipating passing lanes than clearing the crease and tying up your man.

Edited by dudacek
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1 hour ago, Scottysabres said:

Your equating height to weight, or body mass. Being tall doesn't equate to the ability to use body mass for puck protection/control, or the ability to clear the front of the net.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

I listed 5 defenders on this team who are 200lbs or heavier. The Sabres are 24th in average weight which isn't surprising when you think about how young they are. I think it is a panicky solution to a false problem to think we have to get bigger bodies when this team will naturally get bigger in terms of weight each season as JJP, Quinn, Cozens, Power, etc... age and get man strength. 

I will add Colorado, Seattle, NJD, Carolina are all in the rough range of the Sabres in terms of weight and they seem to win just fine. What I am trying to say is this refrain of "add size" isn't based on anything than anecdotal feeling. The Sabres are fine in terms of size and need more overall roster talent on defense and more maturity (naturally as the young core starts to age). I don't think adding a 220lb defender does much unless they are really good at hockey. 

30 minutes ago, dudacek said:

In the games i watch, there seems to be a decided de-emphasis on big bodies getting to the front of the net while players pound away from the outside looking for tips, rebounds and deflections.

Goals seem to be more the result of movement creating holes that are then exploited by players darting into them. Goalie get beat by making them move laterally.

It's never an either/or thing, but under current trends, successful defence seems more about pressuring the puck and anticipating passing lanes than clearing the crease and tying up your man.

The average sh% for a point shot is 2% because it just isn't how NHL goals get scored anymore.

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He is bad enough that five years into the experiment we are still asking the question. The highest compliment I can give him as a player is that he is JAG, an absolute non- difference maker as a player whether he is on the ice or not. 

Nice couch though.

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19 minutes ago, Captain Caveman said:

I haven't looked at analytics, etc... but does anyone else feel like the combination of Jost / Mitts / Olof seems to be bringing out some better hockey in each of them?  I feel like in the Boston game and again last night Mitts has had a lot more possession, and done more with it.

He had a pretty good game last night.

He got flak on the Milano goal, but that was more about Mule making a bad pinch and Dahlin not rotating out behind him quickly enough.

He and Jost had some of that Krebs line puckhound buzz going on on the forecheck.

Consistency is the main issue, so a game or two isn't going to sway many takes.

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@Taro T this needs to be in here:

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Until this season Mittelstadt has been handled roughly as well as Thompson was prior to Granato moving him to C from the poor usage right up to the accompanying the accompanying injury bad luck until this year.  He also started this year as the 2C, almost always w/ Olofsson, and quite often Asplund; so this 2C/3C tweener was getting hard usage w/ other linemates also being asked to punch above their weight class.  He watched Granato's system implemented last year but didn't get to actually participate for long stretches & then when he could his skating was affected by his injury.  This season he pretty much avoided moving the puck to the middle of the ice (likely from years of Taylor & Krueger hammering into his head that moving the puck into a phonebpoth in the center of the ice was a very poor decision) unless he was almost at the opponent's goal line and other teams saw that & took an easy path up the boards away from him resulting in a frustratingly large # of turnovers.  But he was typically positionally sound in his own end, tended to stay high in the opponent's zone avoiding odd man rushes not the direct result of him getting forced into a turnover & he was pretty good at getting the puck from an opponent in a 1 on 1 battle but then typically would lose the puck back before he could move it to a teammate.  He was clearly thinking rather than doing.

It wasn't until the Joisey game that he was bumped down to 3rd line usage.  He was still mainly playing C then until Jost was finally added to his line.  He was still keeping the puck to the boards & seemed to be playing slower than he is.  But, that's been changing since that 3 ppint game he had.  He has started actually moving the puck towards the middle of the ice and his passing has improved.  He also is playing quicker.  Last night, except for the play that turned into the 1st Caps goal where he & Samuelsson were not on the same page & he then got interfered w/ trying to back check & the 1st 6 or so minutes of the 3rd where he was playing slower again (IMHO he wasn't dogging it, he was trying to figure out how yo adjust to the Caps surge; YMMV & likely will 😉) he was having a very solid game & arguably his best.  He even set Olofsson up for a couple of nice opportunities - that hadn't been happening in ages.  Getting to play W along w/ the easier usage that comes w/ playing on the 3rd line rather than the 2nd or checking line has IMHO helped him simplify and get what Granato wants him & the rest doing.  He has been better in the last 6 or so games, finally; and though his line only finally scored again last night they've actually been generating chances.  Something else that wasn't happening in ages.

Personally don't believe Granato is giving him opportunities to boost his trade value, though that might be the LT result.  Believe Granato's rationale is twofold.  1.  He continually talks about Mitts skill level & believes he can once again be the underperformed player whisperer & get him to bring it in games which would significantly help the team if that line could start scoring even every other game at ES.  He's been a pretty good judge of talent so far & will personally give Don the benefit of the doubt as he's brought more out of several players than it seemed they had.

And 2.  Granato WANTS to be able to use the Cozens line as the 3rd line.  Not to shelter Cozens, he clearly doesn't need to be sheltered, but to get the other 2 kids back to favorable matchups.  Which would get them thriving again.  They were going great w/ 3rd line usage & even bumped up a little when 1st getting 2nd line usage.  But that line, while still generating chances, isn't generating nearly as many (some of the advanced stats people could say just how much their chances & more critically their high danger chances are down, but would eyeball them at about 60% of what they'd been getting) and they aren't scoring at ES as a line.  Getting them back to 3rd line usage will get them back to looking like the 2nd coming of the RAV line.  And, while they will get back to finishing playing through the 2nd line usage, it'll be more dramatic an increase getting back to the easier usage.  And to get the Kid Line back to 3rd line matchups means either the Jost or Krebs line needs to take that 2nd line usage.  And the Jost line can't do that w/out Mitts playing better than he did at ES throughout the 1st 2+ months.

Personally, expect Mitts to continue to gel w/ Jost and continue to look more like a driver than a passenger throughout this month. And hopefully well enough that the Kid Line can go back to getting really favorable matchups. Wouldn't put money on it, but do believe (hope?) it is likely.

Expect that Mitts improvement will help Olofsson too.  But VO's issue is he isn't a play driver & never will be.  But if Jost & Mitts can make stuff happen, maybe he can get some confidence as well.

 

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The stuff above about Granato’s belief in Casey is bang on, IMO.

He believes in his talent and his work ethic and is determined that if he perseveres the payoff will come.

He’s using the same template that paid off for Cozens and Thompson and Tuch and Dahlin.

To me, the difference is Casey just isn’t as good at hockey as the other 4.

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46 minutes ago, dudacek said:

He had a pretty good game last night.

He got flak on the Milano goal, but that was more about Mule making a bad pinch and Dahlin not rotating out behind him quickly enough.

He and Jost had some of that Krebs line puckhound buzz going on on the forecheck.

Consistency is the main issue, so a game or two isn't going to sway many takes.

Really believe finally getting a chance to play W on the 3rd line will allow us to see what Mittelstadt can be.  Essentially missing all of last year (between outright being out & not being able to skate when he was in) & then being forced into 2C usage when he wasn't ready for it, especially w/ Olofsson & Asplund as his primary linnemates, kept him in that small set of players that haven't noticeably improved under Granato.

 

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3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Really believe finally getting a chance to play W on the 3rd line will allow us to see what Mittelstadt can be.  Essentially missing all of last year (between outright being out & not being able to skate when he was in) & then being forced into 2C usage when he wasn't ready for it, especially w/ Olofsson & Asplund as his primary linnemates, kept him in that small set of players that haven't noticeably improved under Granato.

 

I agree. His draft position is biasing us into thinking he can be something more. As a 3rd line W, I think he can still help us win.

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7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The stuff above about Granato’s belief in Casey is bang on, IMO.

He believes in his talent and his work ethic and is determined that if he perseveres the payoff will come.

He’s using the same template that paid off for Cozens and Thompson and Tuch and Dahlin.

To me, the difference is Casey just isn’t as good at hockey as the other 4.

Danke.  🍻

Well, considering 2 of those 4 will be All Stars (& quite possibly season ending, not just early February), 1 is a 1st liner, & the other is just 21 (22?) and already a solid 2nd liner w/1st line potential; no he likely isn't as good as any other them.

But he is a legit 3rd liner who could very well be a 2nd liner.  And, if he is a 2nd liner, this team really is set a F moving forward and they have legit assets that can be used to fill gaps at D or G OR to extend the window that is clearly opening.

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Posted (edited)

Player 1 is 24, was a top 10 pick and makes $2.5 million 

He’s scored 9 points and been a -4 in the past 17 games mostly on the 3rd line.

Player 2 is 24, was a top 10 pick and makes $2.0 million 

He’s scored 7 points and been a +/-0 in the past 17 games mostly on the 3rd line.

 

We like Tyson Jost because he seems to have realized that while he’s not going to be the top 6 player he had hoped to become, he is good enough to play in the NHL and can contribute in a specific role.

We don’t like Casey Mittelstadt because we are judging him in the context of being the top 6 player he had hoped to become. He is good enough to be an NHL player, but is still figuring out his role.

Expectations are certainly at play here and need to be readjusted.

Edited by dudacek
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==============================================================
BUF even strength goal differential through 36 games = 12
BUF even strength minutes played through 36 games = 1764.35
exp+/- is a function of %min played at ES and team ES goal diff
TRpm(team relative +/-) is the diff btwn actual+/- and exp+/-
%min is % of ES minutes played
==============================================================
Team  Player                   TRpm    GP    +/-  exp+/-  %min
BUF Jeff Skinner              11.94    33    15    3.06   25.5
BUF Alex Tuch                 10.61    36    14    3.39   28.3
BUF Tage Thompson             10.49    36    14    3.51   29.2
BUF Mattias Samuelsson        10.02    23    13    2.98   24.8
BUF Rasmus Dahlin              9.18    35    14    4.82   40.2
BUF Owen Power                 8.37    33    13    4.63   38.6
BUF Jack Quinn                 2.62    31     5    2.38   19.8
BUF Kyle Okposo                2.62    29     5    2.38   19.8
BUF Kale Clague                0.28    16     2    1.72   14.3
BUF Henri Jokiharju            0.13    16     2    1.87   15.5
BUF Ilya Lyubushkin            0.12    22     2    1.88   15.7
BUF Rasmus Asplund            -0.50    21     1    1.50   12.5
BUF Dylan Cozens              -1.05    36     2    3.05   25.4
BUF Tyson Jost                -1.35    18     0    1.35   11.3
BUF Zemgus Girgensons         -1.58    35     1    2.58   21.5
BUF Vinnie Hinostroza         -2.30    16    -1    1.30   10.8
BUF Casey Fitzgerald          -2.75    23    -1    1.75   14.6
BUF JJ Peterka                -3.09    36     0    3.09   25.8
BUF Peyton Krebs              -3.28    30    -1    2.28   19.0
BUF Lawrence Pilut            -5.36    17    -4    1.36   11.3
BUF Victor Olofsson          -12.82    36   -10    2.82   23.5
BUF Casey Mittelstadt        -13.98    36   -11    2.98   24.8
BUF Jacob Bryson             -16.89    29   -14    2.89   24.1
==============================================================
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5 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I agree. His draft position is biasing us into thinking he can be something more. As a 3rd line W, I think he can still help us win.

Kind of agree.  His draft pedigree is frustrating people that expect more than a 3W out of a top 10 pick.

But, as long as Granato believes he can be more than that, will expect Don is correct.  Can't think of a single player Granato expressed a sincere belief in that has busted.  (Small sample size, but still, he believed in Thompson, Skinner, & Krebs.  He put Cozens up against McDavid.  He has an effective line w/ Cozens the elder statesman.  He knows what these guys can be.  If he says Mitts can be really good.  Not going to argue.)

And, if Granato is wrong and all he is, is a good 3W, he'll still help this team this year & next and then will get pushed out by a kid at some point.

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15 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Player 1 is 24, was a top 10 pick and makes $2.5 million 

He’s scored 9 points and been a -4 in the past 17 games mostly on the 3rd line.

Player 2 is 24, was a top 10 pick and makes $2.0 million 

He’s scored 7 points and been a +/-0 in the past 17 games mostly on the 3rd line.

 

We like Tyson Jost because he seems to have realized that while he’s not going to be the top 6 player he had hoped to become, he is good enough to play in the NHL and can contribute in a specific role.

We don’t like Casey Mittelstadt because we are judging him in the context of being the top 6 player he had hoped to become. He is good enough to be an NHL player, but is still figuring out his role.

Expectations are certainly at play here and need to be readjusted.

 

9 minutes ago, pi2000 said:
==============================================================
BUF even strength goal differential through 36 games = 12
BUF even strength minutes played through 36 games = 1764.35
exp+/- is a function of %min played at ES and team ES goal diff
TRpm(team relative +/-) is the diff btwn actual+/- and exp+/-
%min is % of ES minutes played
==============================================================
Team  Player                   TRpm    GP    +/-  exp+/-  %min
BUF Jeff Skinner              11.94    33    15    3.06   25.5
BUF Alex Tuch                 10.61    36    14    3.39   28.3
BUF Tage Thompson             10.49    36    14    3.51   29.2
BUF Mattias Samuelsson        10.02    23    13    2.98   24.8
BUF Rasmus Dahlin              9.18    35    14    4.82   40.2
BUF Owen Power                 8.37    33    13    4.63   38.6
BUF Jack Quinn                 2.62    31     5    2.38   19.8
BUF Kyle Okposo                2.62    29     5    2.38   19.8
BUF Kale Clague                0.28    16     2    1.72   14.3
BUF Henri Jokiharju            0.13    16     2    1.87   15.5
BUF Ilya Lyubushkin            0.12    22     2    1.88   15.7
BUF Rasmus Asplund            -0.50    21     1    1.50   12.5
BUF Dylan Cozens              -1.05    36     2    3.05   25.4
BUF Tyson Jost                -1.35    18     0    1.35   11.3
BUF Zemgus Girgensons         -1.58    35     1    2.58   21.5
BUF Vinnie Hinostroza         -2.30    16    -1    1.30   10.8
BUF Casey Fitzgerald          -2.75    23    -1    1.75   14.6
BUF JJ Peterka                -3.09    36     0    3.09   25.8
BUF Peyton Krebs              -3.28    30    -1    2.28   19.0
BUF Lawrence Pilut            -5.36    17    -4    1.36   11.3
BUF Victor Olofsson          -12.82    36   -10    2.82   23.5
BUF Casey Mittelstadt        -13.98    36   -11    2.98   24.8
BUF Jacob Bryson             -16.89    29   -14    2.89   24.1
==============================================================

 

This chart says it all about some of the weaknesses on the team (Bryson and Mitts). I don't think just looking at the last 17 games since Jost came on the team is a full evaluation of Mittelstadt. One could argue that Jost has reduced Casey's negative +/- by his presence on the line. 

Nor does it have to do with his being a top 10 pick. 

Casey has been scoring a bit more lately. But a classic illustration of why I think fans find problems with him is the breakaway goal he gave up vs. the Caps. First, he's weak on the puck and gets it stolen. Then he gets just buried trying to chase. He has good size but he needs to be physically stronger and play with more physicality. Until he does that he'll always flash here and there because of his skating speed; and will get some goals; but he'll also be a weak spot. 

I suspect if he gets traded or released that, like a number of players in the NHL and NFL who get traded from their drafting team, they realize that they haven't put the work in that they need to. But it doesn't seem to be the case that he is improving as he should be. I don't care about the goals or points but that he works hard and stops making bad plays. If he's a #3 or #4 center or wing, he's got to be physical and tough. 

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Reposting (with a couple of typos corrected) the (too) long post from the GDT per @dudacek's suggestion.

Until this season Mittelstadt has been handled roughly as well as Thompson was prior to Granato moving him to C, from the poor usage right up to the accompanying injury bad luck.  He also started this year as the 2C, almost always w/ Olofsson, and quite often Asplund; so this 2C/3C tweener was getting hard usage w/ other linemates also being asked to punch above their weight class.  He watched Granato's system implemented last year but didn't get to actually participate for long stretches & then when he could his skating was affected by his injury.  This season he pretty much avoided moving the puck to the middle of the ice (likely from years of Taylor & Krueger hammering into his head that moving the puck into a phonebooth in the center of the ice was a very poor decision) unless he was almost at the opponent's goal line and other teams saw that & took an easy path up the boards away from him resulting in a frustratingly large # of turnovers.  But he was typically positionally sound in his own end, tended to stay high in the opponent's zone avoiding odd man rushes not the direct result of him getting forced into a turnover & he was pretty good at getting the puck from an opponent in a 1 on 1 battle but then typically would lose the puck back before he could move it to a teammate.  He was clearly thinking rather than doing.

It wasn't until the Joisey game that he was bumped down to 3rd line usage.  He was still mainly playing C then until Jost was finally added to his line.  He was still keeping the puck to the boards & seemed to be playing slower than he is.  But, that's been changing since that 3 point game he had.  He has started actually moving the puck towards the middle of the ice and his passing has improved.  He also is playing quicker.  Last night, except for the play that turned into the 1st Caps goal where he & Samuelsson were not on the same page & he then got interfered w/ trying to back check & the 1st 6 or so minutes of the 3rd where he was playing slower again (IMHO he wasn't dogging it, he was trying to figure out how yo adjust to the Caps surge; YMMV & likely will 😉) he was having a very solid game & arguably his best.  He even set Olofsson up for a couple of nice opportunities - that hadn't been happening in ages.  Getting to play W along w/ the easier usage that comes w/ playing on the 3rd line rather than the 2nd or checking line has IMHO helped him simplify and get what Granato wants him & the rest doing.  He has been better in the last 6 or so games, finally; and though his line only finally scored again last night they've actually been generating chances.  Something else that wasn't happening in ages.

Personally don't believe Granato is giving him opportunities to boost his trade value, though that might be the LT result.  Believe Granato's rationale is twofold.  1.  He continually talks about Mitts skill level & believes he can once again be the underperforming player whisperer & get him to bring it in games which would significantly help the team if that line could start scoring even every other game at ES.  He's been a pretty good judge of talent so far & personally will give Don the benefit of the doubt as he's brought more out of several players than it seemed they had.

And 2.  Granato WANTS to be able to use the Cozens line as the 3rd line.  Not to shelter Cozens, he clearly doesn't need to be sheltered, but to get the other 2 kids back to favorable matchups.  Which would get them thriving again.  They were going great w/ 3rd line usage & even bumped up a little when 1st getting 2nd line usage.  But that line, while still generating chances, isn't generating nearly as many (some of the advanced stats people could say just how much their chances & more critically their high danger chances are down, but would eyeball them at about 60% of what they'd been getting) and they aren't scoring at ES as a line.  Getting them back to 3rd line usage will get them back to looking like the 2nd coming of the RAV line.  And, while they will get back to finishing playing through the 2nd line usage, it'll be more dramatic an increase getting back to the easier usage.  And to get the Kid Line back to 3rd line matchups means either the Jost line or Krebs line needs to take that 2nd line usage.  And the Jost line can't do that w/out Mitts playing better than he did at ES throughout the 1st 2+ months.

Personally, expect Mitts to continue to gel w/ Jost and continue to look more like a driver than a passenger throughout this month. And hopefully well enough that the Kid Line can go back to getting really favorable matchups. Wouldn't put money on it, but do believe (hope?) it is likely.

Expect that Mitts improvement will help Olofsson too.  But VO's issue is he isn't a play driver & never will be.  But if Jost & Mitts can make stuff happen, maybe he can get some confidence as well.

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Trust me, I don’t base my opinion or expectations of Mitts on his draft position in the least. Indeed, I have zero expectations when it comes to Casey. My opinion is based solely on what I have observed watching him in every game he has played since he came into the league. He is not without skill, has great hands, and gives effort. But after five years, he has shown me nothing in the way of developing poise; of being able to slow it down for a tick to make the better play instead of frenetically trying to force things most of the time. We have already seen several younger players on the team demonstrate that poise. IMO, poise is what separates the average player from the good and the good player from the great.

All I ever see from Mitts is glimpses. 

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Casey is on pace for a 46 pts season.  That's excellent production for a 3rd line player making only 2.5 million.  

There has been constant talk on this board about how Casey is a turnover machine.  The stats don't bear that out.  His 2.15 Gva/60 is 65th worst among NHL forwards, which isn't great, but not terrible either.  Skinner is the Sabres worst forward on giveaways at 2.20 per 60.  (57th worst).  None of these guys are even close to the 4.72 by Pastrnak (NHL's worst), or even Kucherov (3.90), Barzal (3.84), Draisaitl (3.71), or McJesus (3.31).  

On takaways, Mitts is second at on the team at 2.36 behind only Tuch at 2.46.  Mitts is a net +2 between Gva and Tka.  

Skinner is the closest we have to a "turnover machine" and he isn't even that bad.  His net -6 is the worst among our forwards.  The only other - Sabres forwards are Krebs (-1) and JJP (-2).  

Oh by the way Casey has 2g 5a for 7 pts and a +2 in his last 10 games.  I thought it was very telling that Casey was the player DG promoted to the top line during Skinner's suspension.  

I'd love to see the chart which shows what D Casey and VO were most often paired with.  

 

 

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Casey is on pace for a 46 pts season.  That's excellent production for a 3rd line player making only 2.5 million.  

There has been constant talk on this board about how Casey is a turnover machine.  The stats don't bear that out.  His 2.15 Gva/60 is 65th worst among NHL forwards, which isn't great, but not terrible either.  Skinner is the Sabres worst forward on giveaways at 2.20 per 60.  (57th worst).  None of these guys are even close to the 4.72 by Pastrnak (NHL's worst), or even Kucherov (3.90), Barzal (3.84), Draisaitl (3.71), or McJesus (3.31).  

On takaways, Mitts is second at on the team at 2.36 behind only Tuch at 2.46.  Mitts is a net +2 between Gva and Tka.  

Skinner is the closest we have to a "turnover machine" and he isn't even that bad.  His net -6 is the worst among our forwards.  The only other - Sabres forwards are Krebs (-1) and JJP (-2).  

Oh by the way Casey has 2g 5a for 7 pts and a +2 in his last 10 games.  I thought it was very telling that Casey was the player DG promoted to the top line during Skinner's suspension.  

I'd love to see the chart which shows what D Casey and VO were most often paired with.  

 

 

To the bolded, it was but in a few ways.

Positives about Mittelstadt: it said Granato thought he could play well w/ Tuch & Thompson w/out significantly negatively affecting their play & also that he wanted Casey's faceoff prowess (not incredible, but probably best on the team)  should Thompson get tossed or they need a lefty for a draw.

It also said that keeping Cozens between the kids was more important than completely stacking that top line as Cozens is the 4th F on the PP & the 1st choice as an extra man.  It also probably says that keeping Okposo with his line rather than swapping him out for Asplund or Hinostroza is less disruptive to the overall effectiveness of the respective lines that swapping out 1 of them for Mitts.

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Oh by the way, I think people need to rethink what their expectations are for anyone forward drafted 8th overall.  https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/draft_by_pick.php?position=8

I went and looked at the history of that draft position for the last 25 years and for the most part the players end up being middle to bottom of the lineup forwards.  For every star like William Nylander and Sean Couterier, you have 2 or more complete busts like Scott Glennie, Alex Nylander, Alexandre Picard, or Zach Hamill.  You also have a large group of role players like Taylor Pyatt, Mark Bell, and Pierre Marc Bouchard

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1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Oh by the way, I think people need to rethink what their expectations are for anyone forward drafted 8th overall.  https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/draft_by_pick.php?position=8

I went and looked at the history of that draft position for the last 25 years and for the most part the players end up being middle to bottom of the lineup forwards.  For every star like William Nylander and Sean Couterier, you have 2 or more complete busts like Scott Glennie, Alex Nylander, Alexandre Picard, or Zach Hamill.  You also have a large group of role players like Taylor Pyatt, Mark Bell, and Pierre Marc Bouchard

The question is how bad is he now (he is) and not whether the Sabres should have drafted a guy who couldn't do one pullup at 8th overall (they shouldn't have).

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