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2022 Buffalo Bills Thread


Brawndo
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5 hours ago, tom webster said:

the actual payroll taxes, real estate taxes generated by players and executives, sales tax, etc, the return on investment isn’t horrible, especially when you add in quality of life benefits as well.

2 hours ago, tom webster said:

I’m talking the payroll taxes and real estate taxes generated by players and executives with the team, hotel taxes, sales taxes on tickets, meals and merchandise purchased by fans, etc. It adds up and that doesn’t include the construction jobs and other things associated with the build.

I’ve been seeing things to this effect of late - most notably in a piece Tim O’Shei had in the Buffalo News.

I don’t know where this is coming from. My best guess: Sophisticated press agents of the billionaire owner class. 

The academic and think tank types have been and remain in universal agreement: Stadiums are a sh1t deal for taxpayers. Full stop. They get financed for political reasons and for regional quality of life reasons. But there’s no economic justification for them.

If there’s credible research to the contrary, I’d like to see it.

I’ve seen talk lately about the payroll taxes that the teams generate. Colour me skeptical. That report from or for the ESDC refers to marginal tax rates. That’s misleading. Without knowing the effective tax rates, the cash flow from payroll taxes is unknowable. And a lot less than is being trumpeted.

There’s also love for the sales tax receipts. But those just represent the moving around of existing discretionary spending. There’s no new money. 

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14 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I’ve been seeing things to this effect of late - most notably in a piece Tim O’Shei had in the Buffalo News.

I don’t know where this is coming from. My best guess: Sophisticated press agents of the billionaire owner class. 

The academic and think tank types have been and remain in universal agreement: Stadiums are a sh1t deal for taxpayers. Full stop. They get financed for political reasons and for regional quality of life reasons. But there’s no economic justification for them.

If there’s credible research to the contrary, I’d like to see it.

I’ve seen talk lately about the payroll taxes that the teams generate. Colour me skeptical. That report from or for the ESDC refers to marginal tax rates. That’s misleading. Without knowing the effective tax rates, the cash flow from payroll taxes is unknowable. And a lot less than is being trumpeted.

There’s also love for the sales tax receipts. But those just represent the moving around of existing discretionary spending. There’s no new money. 

Disagree. As the salary cap has gone up, payroll taxes, real estate tax and spending by these guys have shortened gap. I’ve seen all the old studies, haven’t seen anything recent. 
I have stated, the return may not be great, but you have to put a value on the abstract gains as well. You want taxpayers to pay for things they don’t want, you have to give them some things they want as well.

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25 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Disagree. As the salary cap has gone up, payroll taxes, real estate tax and spending by these guys have shortened gap. I’ve seen all the old studies, haven’t seen anything recent. 
I have stated, the return may not be great, but you have to put a value on the abstract gains as well. You want taxpayers to pay for things they don’t want, you have to give them some things they want as well.

Analyses as recent as 2021 are in line with the old studies (and not so old studies). If you have links, hit me up.

Agreed that what we’re paying for is abstract — stuff people want.

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12 hours ago, tom webster said:

Disagree. As the salary cap has gone up, payroll taxes, real estate tax and spending by these guys have shortened gap. 

One other thing that occurred to me as I was watching the Sabres curb stomp the Leafs: Salaries have gone up. But so too has the cost of building a new stadium. Commensurately, I should think.

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4 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

One other thing that occurred to me as I was watching the Sabres curb stomp the Leafs: Salaries have gone up. But so too has the cost of building a new stadium. Commensurately, I should think.

I don’t know if it has. It would be nice if someone took all the subjectivity out of it and actually researched the numbers. It really shouldn’t be that hard to calculate the funds generated yearly minus the funds spent but these reports always seem to be written by someone trying to prove a point.

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40 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I don’t know if it has. It would be nice if someone took all the subjectivity out of it and actually researched the numbers. It really shouldn’t be that hard to calculate the funds generated yearly minus the funds spent but these reports always seem to be written by someone trying to prove a point.

The ones written by or for developers and their allies, yes. 

The think tank and academic analyses? They’re presumably after measurable, verifiable truth. The good ones, anyway.

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17 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

The ones written by or for developers and their allies, yes. 

The think tank and academic analyses? They’re presumably after measurable, verifiable truth. The good ones, anyway.

Now that is a highly questionable presumption, good sir.

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54 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Now that is a highly questionable presumption, good sir.

50 minutes ago, tom webster said:

It has become increasingly difficult to find anything written objectively about any topic.

So we gonna slide into the "there is no truth to be found or had" space? C'mon. The big think tanks with the big headed brains - Brookings, for one - have done voluminous, multiply-footnoted studies on stadium subsidy spending and have concluded that they are bad economic policy. In the absence of some data or analysis to the contrary, I don't view the matter as open to a genuine debate.

And this is social science, sure, but the only notable scientific proposition that I can think of as being more settled than the science on stadium subsidies is the (hard) science in favour of mass vaccination programs.

disappear GIF

 

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20 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

So we gonna slide into the "there is no truth to be found or had" space? C'mon. The big think tanks with the big headed brains - Brookings, for one - have done voluminous, multiply-footnoted studies on stadium subsidy spending and have concluded that they are bad economic policy. In the absence of some data or analysis to the contrary, I don't view the matter as open to a genuine debate.

And this is social science, sure, but the only notable scientific proposition that I can think of as being more settled than the science on stadium subsidies is the (hard) science in favour of mass vaccination programs.

disappear GIF

 

 

My point was more about think tanks and academic analyses generally -- which are all funded by sources and produced by authors with agendas, just like the industry-funded studies are -- than about the economic effect of stadiums/arenas, which I agree are almost certainly a net economic negative for everyone other than the team owners.

As for your 2nd paragraph -- how nice of you to throw a stink bomb into this thread! 

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28 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

voluminous, multiply-footnoted studies on stadium subsidy spending and have concluded that they are bad economic policy

This is doubtless, to me.

But there are plenty of other things that we do that are bad economic policy.  We spend money at Disney World, or buy boats, or buy clothing that is made for its fashion rather than its durability, or put in new bathrooms or whatever.  Sometimes we just want to enjoy the fruits of our labors and who cares whether there is little or no resale value.

As long as we are intellectually honest and look at the stadium that way, I'm fine with it.  (Well, I'd prefer that everyone can eat first, but that's not going to happen regardless of whether we put in the stadium.  I think the average reader gets the point here...)

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1 hour ago, Eleven said:

This is doubtless, to me.

But there are plenty of other things that we do that are bad economic policy.  We spend money at Disney World, or buy boats, or buy clothing that is made for its fashion rather than its durability, or put in new bathrooms or whatever.  Sometimes we just want to enjoy the fruits of our labors and who cares whether there is little or no resale value.

As long as we are intellectually honest and look at the stadium that way, I'm fine with it.  (Well, I'd prefer that everyone can eat first, but that's not going to happen regardless of whether we put in the stadium.  I think the average reader gets the point here...)

I’m pretty much in this boat.

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6 hours ago, Eleven said:

This is doubtless, to me.

But there are plenty of other things that we do that are bad economic policy.  We spend money at Disney World, or buy boats, or buy clothing that is made for its fashion rather than its durability, or put in new bathrooms or whatever.  Sometimes we just want to enjoy the fruits of our labors and who cares whether there is little or no resale value.

As long as we are intellectually honest and look at the stadium that way, I'm fine with it.  (Well, I'd prefer that everyone can eat first, but that's not going to happen regardless of whether we put in the stadium.  I think the average reader gets the point here...)

This is it for me, give or take. 

I’ll blame my bloviating on any absence of the bolded above. It’s like — man, we are doing a dumb ***** thing— because we *love* the Bills — and how the Bills make us feel about ourselves — moreover, how they help us feel so connected to friends, family, strangers, and the goddamn *soil*, air, water of WNY.

Actually. ***** it. Great investment. We used to build massive cathedrals in order to feel some type of way.

BILLS BY A BILLION.

5 hours ago, tom webster said:

I’m pretty much in this boat.

Same.

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