Forwards This Season 2021-22 & Beyond

[GASabresIUFAN]

22 minutes ago, kas23 said:

Yeah, I know. I haven’t given up on Skinner yet though. If he was making $4-5M, I think we wouldn’t mind him. It’s just his history and that contract. 

While Skinner is grossly overpaid, his contract isn’t an issue for the foreseeable future.  We are a cap minimum team now and will be again next season. Hagg, Butcher, Miller and Eakin’s 10.6 mill in contracts expire after this year and KO, Girgensons and Bjork’s 9.8 mil in contracts expire after next season.  VO is the only internal player getting “big” after this season, and even with that we are still 9-10 mill below the cap floor for next season.  After 22/23 only Thompson and Cozens can expect big raises.  Only by 2025 should Skinner’s deal possibly become an issue again assuming KA doesn’t go on some crazy spending spree.

[triumph_communes]

Forward are set. All upgrades come from within over the next year, and they are major upgrades to look forward to. The only thing needed is patience.

 

it’s just on RD where we will need to make a UFA splash. Need to spend cap too.  Trick will be keeping their contracts short. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by triumph_communes

[Thorny]

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

19 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he is waived after this season or traded for a bag of pucks at the deadline.  

[PerreaultForever]

On 12/19/2021 at 6:51 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

VO is the only internal player getting “big” after this season

Just wondering, what has VO done this season to justify paying him "big"?

When everybody paid attention to Eichel he was left alone and sniped on the PP effectively but has he really done much of anything to make him any more than a lower range average player in terms of money? 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

 

It's sad and telling that our throw ins make the rosters of better teams and contribute (E-Rod, Lazar) and their throw ins can't find a role or contribute to a very bad team. Obviously none of these players are integral to winning a Stanley Cup but it does make this organization look clueless. We just keep shuffling the deck with new (to us) bodies, the names change, the results don't. 

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's sad and telling that our throw ins make the rosters of better teams and contribute (E-Rod, Lazar) and their throw ins can't find a role or contribute to a very bad team. Obviously none of these players are integral to winning a Stanley Cup but it does make this organization look clueless. We just keep shuffling the deck with new (to us) bodies, the names change, the results don't. 

Goes pretty well with what I'm getting at in the other thread. Because we could add Eichel to this team and still finish last, and teams can add E-Rod and that guy can make a huge positive difference. It's about the overall environment.

For the most part, a grouping buoys the individual, not the other way around. This isn't the NBA, or a QB in the NFL. Your best couple players *don't play* the majority of the game. Adding Casey Mittelstadt and Alex Tuch to this roster from game 1 wouldn't make us notably better. 

We shouldn't be surprised a Bjork or E-Rod couldn't, then. An MVP level player could not. 

[bob_sauve28]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

 

The next Evan Rodriguez 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, bob_sauve28 said:

The next Evan Rodriguez 

0% chance. The underlying numbers aren't there. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Goes pretty well with what I'm getting at in the other thread. Because we could add Eichel to this team and still finish last, and teams can add E-Rod and that guy can make a huge positive difference. It's about the overall environment.

For the most part, a grouping buoys the individual, not the other way around. This isn't the NBA, or a QB in the NFL. Your best couple players *don't play* the majority of the game. Adding Casey Mittelstadt and Alex Tuch to this roster from game 1 wouldn't make us notably better. 

We shouldn't be surprised a Bjork or E-Rod couldn't, then. An MVP level player could not. 

I think the problem you have is you keep talking about adding 1 or 2, we're talking about 3 new defenders and 4 new forwards. Let's say each of them makes the team 2-4% better, that's 14-24% better, I'd take that next year. Finish in the 80s over the 60s

The group does bouy the individual and you need a critical mass of talent, we're closer to that than we were

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Goes pretty well with what I'm getting at in the other thread. Because we could add Eichel to this team and still finish last, and teams can add E-Rod and that guy can make a huge positive difference. It's about the overall environment.

For the most part, a grouping buoys the individual, not the other way around. This isn't the NBA, or a QB in the NFL. Your best couple players *don't play* the majority of the game. Adding Casey Mittelstadt and Alex Tuch to this roster from game 1 wouldn't make us notably better. 

We shouldn't be surprised a Bjork or E-Rod couldn't, then. An MVP level player could not. 

Well, I agree about the overall environment, and I think KA does as well.  I also agree with KA that the whole "guys who want to be here" factor is really important to developing that environment.

I'd also argue against reading too much into ERod's good 33 games.  I always thought he had decent skills and hockey IQ, but he's 28 and this is by far the most productive he's ever been.  Plenty of guys have shown flashes on Pittsburgh or in similarly advantaged situations only to fall way off the next year. 

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

Well, I agree about the overall environment, and I think KA does as well.  I also agree with KA that the whole "guys who want to be here" factor is really important to developing that environment.

I'd also argue against reading too much into ERod's good 33 games.  I always thought he had decent skills and hockey IQ, but he's 28 and this is by far the most productive he's ever been.  Plenty of guys have shown flashes on Pittsburgh or in similarly advantaged situations only to fall way off the next year. 

Was referring more to the talent environment, but ya. 

And ya we'll have to see if E-Rod keeps it up. 

[LGR4GM]

We need at least another year and maybe 2. I'm sorry, I don't wanna say that but it's the truth, it might be 2024b4 we're in the playoffs

[GASabresIUFAN]

18 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

We need at least another year and maybe 2. I'm sorry, I don't wanna say that but it's the truth, it might be 2024b4 we're in the playoffs

That might very well be true, but the change to next year is an extreme upgrade

Here is them most common roster so far this season:

Thompson, Asplund, Okposo, Hinostroza, Skinner, Girgensons, Cozens, Bjork, Eakin, Hayden, Olofsson, Caggiula.

Pysyk, Dahlin, Bryson, Miller, Butcher, Hagg

Tokarski

Next Year:

Thompson, Asplund, Okposo, TUCH, Skinner, Girgensons, Cozens, QUINN, KREBS, MITTLESTADT, Olofsson, JJP (R2 and Murray are also still available)

Pysyk, Dahlin, Bryson, SAMUELSSON, POWER, JOKIHARJU (Pysyk and Bryson might also be replaced).

 UPL or Someone else

Just getting rid of Hayden, Eakin, Caggiula, Bjork, Hagg, Butcher and Miller off this team will be will make things better.

Edited January 7, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[bob_sauve28]

33 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

0% chance. The underlying numbers aren't there. 

No, not 0%. He’s a decent player, four goals playing with bad players. Not saying it’s 100% chance but it’s higher than 0% 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, bob_sauve28 said:

No, not 0%. He’s a decent player, four goals playing with bad players. Not saying it’s 100% chance but it’s higher than 0% 

No,  it's 0% he'll become a 30g scorer in this league, ever. 0% 

There's a 0% chance he'll be a .9ppg player in this league at this point in any season. 

He's not good enough. Erod had better underlying metrics and was misused by the dumbest coach in nhl history. 

Bjork is a 10-15 goal 30pt 3rd line winger at his max ceiling. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Thorny said:

Goes pretty well with what I'm getting at in the other thread. Because we could add Eichel to this team and still finish last, and teams can add E-Rod and that guy can make a huge positive difference. It's about the overall environment.

For the most part, a grouping buoys the individual, not the other way around. This isn't the NBA, or a QB in the NFL. Your best couple players *don't play* the majority of the game. Adding Casey Mittelstadt and Alex Tuch to this roster from game 1 wouldn't make us notably better. 

We shouldn't be surprised a Bjork or E-Rod couldn't, then. An MVP level player could not. 

Exactly. Culture, environment, team identity. We have none. 

We constantly keep changing coaches and plans and schemes and players and most of these guys realize pretty fast they're not going to be here long term and they play at that level. I mean we here often get caught up trying to figure out what is line 1 vs 2 or 3 or 4.   Other teams have set roles for specific lines and they slot the best available player that fits into that role. Hence Lazar can play in Boston because their 4th line is a match for his style. Ours keeps changing. 

I thought maybe we were starting to head that way when there seemed to be some consistency with a second line of Cozens Murray Okposo but now it's all just a big blender mix again. 

No one has any idea what this team will look like next year, and I doubt management actually does either.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

No one has any idea what this team will look like next year, and I doubt management actually does either.

I wholeheartedly don't believe this. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by LGR4GM

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I wholeheartedly don't believe this. 

As always, I'm sure they HOPE for certain things to happen and become obvious, but there are far too many variables and uncertainties in terms of player development to be sure. While they might have a Plan A, they'd best have versions B and C ready as well. 

I haven't seen anything from this management group that clearly defines the future of this team aside from maybe the heavy reliance on analytics for the draft(s). 

"Players who want to be here" isn't really a strategy, it's just a dream. 

[Dreams Burn Down]

6 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

The next Evan Rodriguez 

Rodriguez looked better with us than Bjork has thus far.  Rodriguez had a better supporting cast, though, such as there was.  Neither of them lit the house on fire for the Sabres.  If they don't qualify him, I will miss the Swedish Chef meme.

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Exactly. Culture, environment, team identity. We have none. 

We constantly keep changing coaches and plans and schemes and players and most of these guys realize pretty fast they're not going to be here long term and they play at that level. I mean we here often get caught up trying to figure out what is line 1 vs 2 or 3 or 4.   Other teams have set roles for specific lines and they slot the best available player that fits into that role. Hence Lazar can play in Boston because their 4th line is a match for his style. Ours keeps changing. 

I thought maybe we were starting to head that way when there seemed to be some consistency with a second line of Cozens Murray Okposo but now it's all just a big blender mix again. 

No one has any idea what this team will look like next year, and I doubt management actually does either.

You speak of the first bolded like it is a switch that can just be turned on, and of the 2nd bolded as if the plan isn’t obvious.

Management has consistently preached an identity: play fast, be fearless, don’t quit. And a plan: form a young core that cares for each other and grows and develops together into something that can be good long term. They haven’t deviated from that and by and large the players seem to be bought in.

The plan is to build a deep centre spine featuring three of Krebs, Cozens, Mittelstadt and Thompson and 2 strong defence pairs anchored by Power and Dahlin.

Short-term they will be supported on the wings by Tuch, Olofsson, Skinner, Okposo, Asplund and Girgensons, supplemented and/or replaced by Quinn, Peterka, Rosen, Poltapov and one of the guys currently listed at centre, with Bryson, Jokiharju, Samuelsson and Johnson providing similar support now and for the future on defence.

In goal, they think UPL can be the guy, and they have Levi and Portillo as insurance.

They know they can’t count on all those guys to hit, so they have covered their bases with 4 1sts and 4 2nds over the next two drafts, including at least 1 more top 10 pick. And they have maximized the amount of cap space they have available over the next few years so they have the ability to lock up the hits, replace the misses, and acquire pieces to fill in the gaps.

They have also overhauled their scouting, development and analytics teams in order to make sure they get the most out of their assets.

You complain about the constant changing of plans yet you seem ready to toss this one out before it is even a half-season deep, or most of its major components have yet to hit their 22nd birthday.

You might not like it, but there absolutely is a plan. It’s going to take at least 2 or 3 years to get any sense of whether it is a good plan, or if Adams has the chops to pull it off, or if Terry has the patience to let him.

Edited January 8, 2022 by dudacek

[Doohickie]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Just wondering, what has VO done this season to justify paying him "big"?

When everybody paid attention to Eichel he was left alone and sniped on the PP effectively but has he really done much of anything to make him any more than a lower range average player in terms of money? 

He was probably our best forward when he was injured.  I believe he was leading the team in goals at that point and was playing a very good two-way game.  And he wasn't just a shooting threat; he was good at carrying the puck and passing.  I think whatever his injury is/was, it's still hampering his ability to do a lot of those other little things as well as compromising his shot.

[PerreaultForever]

14 hours ago, dudacek said:

You speak of the first bolded like it is a switch that can just be turned on, and of the 2nd bolded as if the plan isn’t obvious.

Management has consistently preached an identity: play fast, be fearless, don’t quit. And a plan: form a young core that cares for each other and grows and develops together into something that can be good long term. They haven’t deviated from that and by and large the players seem to be bought in.

The plan is to build a deep centre spine featuring three of Krebs, Cozens, Mittelstadt and Thompson and 2 strong defence pairs anchored by Power and Dahlin.

Short-term they will be supported on the wings by Tuch, Olofsson, Skinner, Okposo, Asplund and Girgensons, supplemented and/or replaced by Quinn, Peterka, Rosen, Poltapov and one of the guys currently listed at centre, with Bryson, Jokiharju, Samuelsson and Johnson providing similar support now and for the future on defence.

In goal, they think UPL can be the guy, and they have Levi and Portillo as insurance.

They know they can’t count on all those guys to hit, so they have covered their bases with 4 1sts and 4 2nds over the next two drafts, including at least 1 more top 10 pick. And they have maximized the amount of cap space they have available over the next few years so they have the ability to lock up the hits, replace the misses, and acquire pieces to fill in the gaps.

They have also overhauled their scouting, development and analytics teams in order to make sure they get the most out of their assets.

You complain about the constant changing of plans yet you seem ready to toss this one out before it is even a half-season deep, or most of its major components have yet to hit their 22nd birthday.

You might not like it, but there absolutely is a plan. It’s going to take at least 2 or 3 years to get any sense of whether it is a good plan, or if Adams has the chops to pull it off, or if Terry has the patience to let him.

A few things here, I've heard what Adams says, I want to see more of that actually on the ice before I believe it. I still see too much flip flopping and mixing and matching and don't really see that team dynamic in place yet. We've heard over the years the players all get along and it's a good locker room. Heard that in the last era, but it was bs. 

The Peca article is good. I'd like to see his role expanded tbh. 

I don't believe UPL is their long term plan. I think it's Levi.

I'm not tossing the plan. I don't know why you think I said that. I simply want more evidence on ice that it's a plan in motion and not just a lot of words. 

[PerreaultForever]

13 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

He was probably our best forward when he was injured.  I believe he was leading the team in goals at that point and was playing a very good two-way game.  And he wasn't just a shooting threat; he was good at carrying the puck and passing.  I think whatever his injury is/was, it's still hampering his ability to do a lot of those other little things as well as compromising his shot.

Blaming injuries is a Sabres thing I'm not buying into. Injuries are part of the game. When you're ready to be back you're back. 

But let me pin you down. How much would you pay VO and for how long?

[Curt]

On 1/7/2022 at 3:26 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Just wondering, what has VO done this season to justify paying him "big"?

When everybody paid attention to Eichel he was left alone and sniped on the PP effectively but has he really done much of anything to make him any more than a lower range average player in terms of money? 

First 8 games of the season he had 5 goals and 9 points.  He looked legitimately improved to me.

Then he got injured.

He hasn’t scored a goal in the 18 games since he came back.  Something isn’t right with him physically.

Over his career, he has produced like a 2nd line winger.

This doesn’t really support that he will get a BIG money deal, but if he can be signed to medium term deal for less than $6M, the Sabres may be wise to do that.  I don’t think has yet had a season that really reflects his abilities.