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LGR4GM

Should we be talking more about Arttu Ruotsalainen

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3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Skilled determined defenders

That is the perfect description of what we need. I'm hoping that Borgen is in this mould. 

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11 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Because you and a lot of ppl like you use toughness as separate from skill. I will NEVER forget when we signed Dalton Smith and it was going to be some cure all and he was going to toughen us up blah blah. It isn't about toughness v skill, just like it isn't about out hitting your opponent. It is about battle with skill. Dahlin never gets talk about as a stay a home defender although he is nasty in his own end. The reason is because he doesn't always have to hit you to take the puck or move it up ice. Tampa Bay didn't suddenly win because they added Maroon. They won because the entire team as a hole was able to use their skills and push themselves over that hump. They didn't hit a goaltender that stonewalled them, they had learned how to push through. Don't come at me and say Washington and Tampa and Pittsburgh won because they added a couple hitters, those teams won because the plays that actually matter were tough and able to use and adapt their skills for the intensity of the playoffs. Intensity doesn't mean hits, it means faster game with more forechecking which is what we see in the playoffs. Bogo didn't win them a cup. Maroon didn't win them a cup. Little old Brayden Point had the most GWG for Tampa. Hedman who is tough and skilled was the best player. You think toughness is what beats skill, it isn't. Hard work beats skill and sometimes in a 7 game series if the skill levels are close enough, that hard work is enough. 

but I'm NOT saying that. You're making up an argument against a position I never took. My position, which I've stated repeatedly is a BALANCED team is what wins. If you have a lightweight skilled team that totally lacks physicality you can get pushed around and eliminated easily (eg. the Leafs). You need a BALANCED team so that you can push back if and when you run into opposition that tries to intimidate you. If not, you're the Red Army against the Broad Street Bullies and you're going home a loser.

10 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

This right here is my problem. You are equating staying at home in the defensive zone and hitting things with winning. That isn't right, it hasn't been in over a decade. Tampa outworked their opponents and generated more shots in a lot of the games. They did this by having a good forecheck and by being vastly superior to every team they faced in terms of skill. Columbus was no where close to Tampa in skill. Boston was a little closer but I think Boston is reaching the over the hill era. The NYI play the most boring trap style because they don't have skill. Tampa lost what? 4 games over 3 series. 

The Sabres don't need "stay at home" tough defenders who hit. They need Skilled determined defenders who battle. 

Again, I'm not equating that, you are. Usually D men are more one thing over another but if you can get a complete player that can do it all well obviously sign him up. The argument was that Pilut doesn't add anything we don't already have and if we are going to improve the D, we need guys who are better in front of the net, better battlers if you like, but that generally comes with bigger more physical bodies. 

I think you can go too far in any direction, but to be really good you need a deep team that can adapt to the game thrown at them. I personally believe Jack is at his best when he's more physical and he does have a little snarl in him and he's not a little guy. But for him to be able to be mean and throw his own weight around (like a guy like Ovi does for example) you need other guys on the roster who will allow him to not have to be the one to drop his gloves on those occasions when the other side pushes back. Kucherov's actually a pretty nasty guy and the fact that we did nothing to him in Sweden was the beginning of our season's end. 

Those Columbus games by the way were really close and if that long OT goes the other way Tampa might not have come through that series again. A lot of these things can flip on a dime. The tough guys did their part and they helped keep their opponents honest and the talent prevailed. One dimensional hockey never wins. 

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10 hours ago, Curt said:

 

My 2 cents.

Things I want my defensemen to be able to do:

-In the D zone, get the puck back.  However they need to do that, stick checking, strength in the corners, however, just get it.

-Be good in defensive transitions, generally requires good skating and often some size/strength

-Skate well and ability to use that in offensive transitions

-Make good breakout passes

-Control the net front area, which generally requires strength

-PP QB/offensive zone skills

On a roster, you kinda need a mix of players who can do all of these things.  Very few players are good at all of them.

As you can see, some of these things benefit from good strength/size, but if a player doesn’t have other qualities to go with it, they don’t fulfill many of my desired skills.

Note that my list does not include “toughness” because that can mean a lot of different things to different people.

Ya, but I'd say everything bolded IS what toughness is all about and that is exactly what we tend to lack. We might have a Hedmann/Lidstrom in Dahlin, but we could still use a Scott Stevens. 

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10 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ya, but I'd say everything bolded IS what toughness is all about and that is exactly what we tend to lack. We might have a Hedmann/Lidstrom in Dahlin, but we could still use a Scott Stevens. 

I don’t think a Scott Stevens exists in 2020. 
 

This isn’t 2001. The game and rules have changed. 

Edited by Andrew Amerk
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1 minute ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I don’t think a Scott Stevens exists in 2020. 
 

This isn’t 2001. The game and rules have changed. 

Just an obvious example. Weber, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Chara (past tense). names that come to mind. Guys who have dominated their own end. they still exist. 

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6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Just an obvious example. Weber, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Chara (past tense). names that come to mind. Guys who have dominated their own end. they still exist. 

So you want to bring back Mike Weber?

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21 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ya, but I'd say everything bolded IS what toughness is all about and that is exactly what we tend to lack. We might have a Hedmann/Lidstrom in Dahlin, but we could still use a Scott Stevens. 

Cool.  That’s fine.  I think when the specific word toughness is used, a lot of people think of big slow guys and big checks.  I also think that small players can be tough.  To me “Toughness” just doesn’t convey the type of skills that I’m describing.

Also, yes.  Any team could use a Scott Stevens.

16 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I don’t think a Scott Stevens exists in 2020. 

This isn’t 2001. The game and rules have changed. 

Scott Stevens was a fantastically talented player and would probably be a All-Star level guy if he played today.  He would certainly need to alter his open ice hits to avoid being perpetually suspended though.

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2 minutes ago, Curt said:

Cool.  That’s fine.  I think when the specific word toughness is used, a lot of people think of big slow guys and big checks.  I also think that small players can be tough.  To me “Toughness” just doesn’t convey the type of skills that I’m describing.

Also, yes.  Any team could use a Scott Stevens.

Scott Stevens was a fantastically talented player and would probably be a All-Star level guy if he played today.  He would certainly need to alter his open ice hits to avoid being perpetually suspended though.

The bigger question is, would Stevens even be able to deliver his open ice hits with the speed of the game today?

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2 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

The bigger question is, would Stevens even be able to deliver his open ice hits with the speed of the game today?

He would, but it would be a rare thing. Like maybe 10 times a year. Maybe...

Plus in today’s game, even clean hard hits means you have to go out and fight on your next shift. It’s lame.

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11 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

He would, but it would be a rare thing. Like maybe 10 times a year. Maybe...

Plus in today’s game, even clean hard hits means you have to go out and fight on your next shift. It’s lame.

I don’t think he would be able to line up all of those hits in today’s game like he did in the 90s. 
 

Players are faster, more skilled, and more elusive now. Not everyone is a lumbering Eric Lindros with their head down today. 

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16 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

The bigger question is, would Stevens even be able to deliver his open ice hits with the speed of the game today?

You think Stevens couldn’t skate?  He could.  Maybe you are just remembering him from his late 30’s?

He would still be a great hockey player, so I don’t care if he would be able to deliver the same open ice hits.

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5 minutes ago, Curt said:

You think Stevens couldn’t skate?  He could.  Maybe you are just remembering him from his late 30’s?

He would still be a great hockey player, so I don’t care if he would be able to deliver the same open ice hits.

Scott Stevens in 2020 would NOT be nearly the player he was in 1995. 

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4 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Scott Stevens in 2020 would NOT be nearly the player he was in 1995. 

Probably a little worse because some of the ways he was able to impact the game with hits and physicality has been taken out of the game.  I’m confident he would still be a really good player though.  I think you are discounting the type of all around player he was, on offense as well as defense.

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5 minutes ago, Curt said:

Probably a little worse because some of the ways he was able to impact the game with hits and physicality has been taken out of the game.  I’m confident he would still be a really good player though.  I think you are discounting the type of all around player he was, on offense as well as defense.

I’m well aware of how excellent Scott Stevens was. In 1995. 
 

I don’t think he would be as effective in 2020 with his skill set. He would still be good, yes, but not who he was back then. 

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1 minute ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I’m well aware of how excellent Scott Stevens was. In 1995. 
 

I don’t think he would be as effective in 2020 with his skill set. He would still be good, yes, but not who he was back then. 

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I don’t think a Scott Stevens exists in 2020. 
 

This isn’t 2001. The game and rules have changed. 

Ok, fair enough.  From your original post, it sounded like you questioned whether Stevens would even be able to play today.  I already acknowledged that he most likely wouldn’t be as impactful.  Glad we agree that Scott Stevens would still be a good player in 2020.

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9 minutes ago, Curt said:

 

Ok, fair enough.  From your original post, it sounded like you questioned whether Stevens would even be able to play today.  I already acknowledged that he most likely wouldn’t be as impactful.  Glad we agree that Scott Stevens would still be a good player in 2020.

Okay. 
 

So, prime Wayne Gretzky in 2020 - how many points?

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3 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Okay. 
 

So, prime Wayne Gretzky in 2020 - how many points?

It depends on if he was born and raised in recent times, or time travelled forward. 

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3 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Okay. 
 

So, prime Wayne Gretzky in 2020 - how many points?

92, 78, 104, 67?

covid shortened or full season?  

good team, bad team, or great team

nature or nurture?

I don’t know man.  This wasn’t really the point.

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1 hour ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I don’t think he would be able to line up all of those hits in today’s game like he did in the 90s. 
 

Players are faster, more skilled, and more elusive now. Not everyone is a lumbering Eric Lindros with their head down today. 

Exactly. That’s why I can see maybe maybe 10 huge hits a season. 

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4 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

The bigger question is, would Stevens even be able to deliver his open ice hits with the speed of the game today?

Of course he would. The game is faster because the rules changed and you can't hold and hook like you used to, but back then he nailed players who put their heads down and tried to tear across the ice. When they were full speed and he caught them doing that it was light's out. be the same today, except, obviously, he'd get penalized now cause they don't really allow that (which is a shame). 

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The game has no room for one dimensional defense first defensemen anymore. gone are the days of a jeff beukeboom or ken daneyko. 

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On a side note....

I can't wait to see Ruotsalainen come to the states. He could be a great depth add. I am cozying up to the fact we're talking about bottom six players now. 

It's a wonderful day in the neighborhood.

Sorry that I derailed the topic.

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On 10/14/2020 at 3:36 PM, dudacek said:

I remember when Adams was talking about Rochester being a place for development and some of us were wondering exactly what prospects we had that could be developing.

  • A centre spine of: Casey, Arttu and Asplund.
  • Laaksonen, Bryson, Fitzpatrick, Samuelsson and maybe Borgen on defence
  • Pekar, Murray plus those two college FA kids (Biro and Dipietro) we signed on the wings (along with Oglevie and CJ Smith, if they still count)
  • And Johansson and Luukkonnen in goal.

I wouldn't call that stacked, but that's actually a lot more prospect heavy than I was expecting. Add Dalton Smith, JS Dea and Brandon Davidson already signed for veteran help and we're probably looking at most of the Roster

I agree, I think they're going to have a pretty solid team...it will all come down to coaching.

(They also have Olofsson's brother, which I totally forgot about...he could be a very good veteran for the team.)

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