Position Battle: Center

[Andrew Amerk]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Berglund at 2C to start the season, with Mitts at either 3C or Wing. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 hours ago, pi2000 said:

It's not fair to the rest of the team if Asplund outplays Larsson in camp and then gets sent down.   It sends the wrong message.

I disagree.  Management wants Asplund to develop properly because they have a higher goal for him then 4th line center.  I think they hope he develops into a better version of Berglund; a two way center who kills penalties and contributes 5 on 5.  To maximize his potential he needs to play in all situations in the AHL, playing 15-18 minutes a night rather then being stuck in a 4th line role in Buffalo playing 9 minutes per night.  

Larsson is a vet who knows the drill and can be dumped into the 4th role without complaint.

 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

13 hours ago, Amerks8796 said:

First, you originally wondered if Dahlin can make the transition to NA so quickly, why can’t Asplund. I was simply responding you you and said they aren’t at the same level and shouldn’t be compared. Period. 

Second, I think both will see call ups throughout the season but won’t become full, regular members of the team until 2019-2020. 

If you want to say that all Euro players need transition time and then ADD with the exception of "generational" players, then I MIGHT tend to agree and I might not. I don't really know if there are real hard facts proving that to be true. However, I've been to nearly every D-camp and some training camps over the last decade and you can get a good feeling about players that way. How they respond to the coaches and vice versa. Their talent level or skill set. Where they might fit on the roster. Sometimes it doesn't work out for us but end up playing on another team.  

I never "wondered IF" Dahlin could make the transition or not so don't miss read my incoherent  babbling. What I was questioning is that if you are so adamant that guys like Asplund and Olofsson need time to transition to the smaller rinks and new system etc  then why doesn't Dahlin. You responded by asking me how I could compare them when Dahlin's on a much higher level than Asplund. It's not my wondering if Danlin can make the transition at all, it's you not thinking that anyone else CAN and must go to Roch. It is me saying they both can make it not based on the level they are at in comparison to each other,  but for their own talent separately. This goes for Olofsson too. 

I'm glad you can foresee the call-ups, now the next question would be .....how long will it be do you think before they get called up. Not looking for an exact time but maybe before X-mas, near All-Star break, trade deadline,  or last 10 games? What's reasonable to you?

Another question might be....do you think any one of Asplund, Olofsson, or Pilut gets the 9 game "try-out" to start the season?

Do you consider Berglund a "generational" talent? He was drafted in '06 (25th pick of the 1st rd....pretty close to where Asplund pick) and came over as a rookie in '08 to the Blues and played 76 games his rookie year. Funny thing....this was the only Swede I looked up and immediately found one that was not "generational", on "another level", or needed "transition" time to adjust to smaller rink, NA style, yada,yada,yada. 

[Amerks8796]

6 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

If you want to say that all Euro players need transition time and then ADD with the exception of "generational" players, then I MIGHT tend to agree and I might not. I don't really know if there are real hard facts proving that to be true. However, I've been to nearly every D-camp and some training camps over the last decade and you can get a good feeling about players that way. How they respond to the coaches and vice versa. Their talent level or skill set. Where they might fit on the roster. Sometimes it doesn't work out for us but end up playing on another team.  

I never "wondered IF" Dahlin could make the transition or not so don't miss read my incoherent  babbling. What I was questioning is that if you are so adamant that guys like Asplund and Olofsson need time to transition to the smaller rinks and new system etc  then why doesn't Dahlin. You responded by asking me how I could compare them when Dahlin's on a much higher level than Asplund. It's not my wondering if Danlin can make the transition at all, it's you not thinking that anyone else CAN and must go to Roch. It is me saying they both can make it not based on the level they are at in comparison to each other,  but for their own talent separately. This goes for Olofsson too. 

I'm glad you can foresee the call-ups, now the next question would be .....how long will it be do you think before they get called up. Not looking for an exact time but maybe before X-mas, near All-Star break, trade deadline,  or last 10 games? What's reasonable to you?

Another question might be....do you think any one of Asplund, Olofsson, or Pilut gets the 9 game "try-out" to start the season?

Do you consider Berglund a "generational" talent? He was drafted in '06 (25th pick of the 1st rd....pretty close to where Asplund pick) and came over as a rookie in '08 to the Blues and played 76 games his rookie year. Funny thing....this was the only Swede I looked up and immediately found one that was not "generational", on "another level", or needed "transition" time to adjust to smaller rink, NA style, yada,yada,yada. 

9 game tryouts aren’t relevant to Olofsson, Pilut or Asplund. Those are for players who aren’t AHL eligible and get 9 games in the NHL to see if they’re ready or if they go back to juniors. 

Berglund also has nothing to do with this discussion. That was a different management group with likely different philosophies. You’re focusing way too much on the “generational prospect” comment. It simply meant that Dahlin is starting in the NHL no matter how good or bad he looks in camp. That’s simply not the case with Asplund. He gets that advantage because of the prospect he is, Asplund does not. So the comparison of the two of them means nothing. 

In the end, it doesn’t really matter what you or I think about the transition to NA that you’re so obsessed over. The assistant GM of the team has mentioned it. It’s not made up. And it’s a fact that they think it’s part of the development plan for Olofsson, Asplund and Pilut. It’s not for Dahlin as he’s never been mentioned in those comments. If you want to overthink things, be my guest. I’ll stick with the facts of what management has said. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, Amerks8796 said:

9 game tryouts aren’t relevant to Olofsson, Pilut or Asplund. Those are for players who aren’t AHL eligible and get 9 games in the NHL to see if they’re ready or if they go back to juniors. 

Berglund also has nothing to do with this discussion. That was a different management group with likely different philosophies. You’re focusing way too much on the “generational prospect” comment. It simply meant that Dahlin is starting in the NHL no matter how good or bad he looks in camp. That’s simply not the case with Asplund. He gets that advantage because of the prospect he is, Asplund does not. So the comparison of the two of them means nothing. 

In the end, it doesn’t really matter what you or I think about the transition to NA that you’re so obsessed over. The assistant GM of the team has mentioned it. It’s not made up. And it’s a fact that they think it’s part of the development plan for Olofsson, Asplund and Pilut. It’s not for Dahlin as he’s never been mentioned in those comments. If you want to overthink things, be my guest. I’ll stick with the facts of what management has said. 

As I said before...It's not me doing the "comparing" of the 2. I'm trying to separate the 2 and base it on their individual merit.

1st bolded....I'm not giving Asplund the same status as Dahlin. I only expect IF Asplund looks good/better than our other options that he has a chance to make the roster.

2nd bolded....you're right, we each have an opinion and that's all that matters.

3rd bolded.... right again, I scanned a few videos to see what his exact words were but didn't find it. 

4th bolded....could they be over thinking things? Tell me you never heard of a player "surprising management" and forcing their hand whether it be a 1st rd pick or a 7th rd'er. How about a player who developed faster than thought? If you do....I'll tell you I never heard of a player who disappointed management or took longer than expected to develope so we both can be liars...LOL

To say that Berglund has nothing to do with this discussion is just laughable. He came over from Sweden, was on a different level than Dahlin, and didn't need transitioning time. The different management group with likely different philosophies? Seeing that Berglund has been successful kinda proves a point that there are other philosophies and they do work.

Edit: As far as Berglund goes.....maybe it wasn't even the management or the philosophies, just maybe it was the determination of the player. ?

Edited September 6, 2018 by MakeSabresGrr8Again
added to post

[Amerks8796]

8 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

As I said before...It's not me doing the "comparing" of the 2. I'm trying to separate the 2 and base it on their individual merit.

1st bolded....I'm not giving Asplund the same status as Dahlin. I only expect IF Asplund looks good/better than our other options that he has a chance to make the roster.

2nd bolded....you're right, we each have an opinion and that's all that matters.

3rd bolded.... right again, I scanned a few videos to see what his exact words were but didn't find it. 

4th bolded....could they be over thinking things? Tell me you never heard of a player "surprising management" and forcing their hand whether it be a 1st rd pick or a 7th rd'er. How about a player who developed faster than thought? If you do....I'll tell you I never heard of a player who disappointed management or took longer than expected to develope so we both can be liars...LOL

To say that Berglund has nothing to do with this discussion is just laughable. He came over from Sweden, was on a different level than Dahlin, and didn't need transitioning time. The different management group with likely different philosophies? Seeing that Berglund has been successful kinda proves a point that there are other philosophies and they do work.

Sexton has said on the radio locally in Rochester that I’ve heard in regards to the North American transition for the Swedes. 

Tell me the last player for Buffalo who has come to camp as a rookie, surprised management, and made the team while forcing out a veteran. Right out of training camp. I am legitimately asking. I don’t know the answer and it’s possible there have been several. 

If anyone is forcing their way in as the 4th line center, it’s Sean Malone, not Asplund. I could realistically see that. I’m not arguing it’s impossible for a young player to force their hand, I’m arguing specifically that it won’t be Asplund. Asplund is going to Rochester to develop his offensive and special teams game, not be a spare part in Buffalo. It’s flies in the face of everything Botterill and Sexton have said regarding development. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

46 minutes ago, Amerks8796 said:

Sexton has said on the radio locally in Rochester that I’ve heard in regards to the North American transition for the Swedes. 

Tell me the last player for Buffalo who has come to camp as a rookie, surprised management, and made the team while forcing out a veteran. Right out of training camp. I am legitimately asking. I don’t know the answer and it’s possible there have been several. 

If anyone is forcing their way in as the 4th line center, it’s Sean Malone, not Asplund. I could realistically see that. I’m not arguing it’s impossible for a young player to force their hand, I’m arguing specifically that it won’t be Asplund. Asplund is going to Rochester to develop his offensive and special teams game, not be a spare part in Buffalo. It’s flies in the face of everything Botterill and Sexton have said regarding development. 

I don't doubt you heard the things you say you did,but have you ever heard the word "outlier"?

Not off the top of my head quickly....but this may be very well a trick question that many people can't answer factually. For example: when was the last time management said something like....Tage Thompson surprised us so Pomminstein is out? These things usually happen by just not re-signing a player, or a trade happens,someone put on waivers keeping everyone to "speculate" so to speak. Unless they pull a Brind'Amour.

On Malone....Did Randy tell you that? Just kidding! Really though I have seen prospect articles that spit his name out at the end but no real confirmation from management. Maybe in passing like....players such as  Asplund , CJ Smith, O'Reagan, Nylander, Olgilvie, Olofsson, Pilut, Guhle, all could make push for a spot on the roster. Malone's another kid who impressed us. Hey, don't take it wrong, I like Malone and am a sucker for the "local boy makes team" story and wish him the best. You could end up being right 'cause me thinks they have bigger aspirations for Asplund than being "a spare part in Buffalo"......Oh wait, so do you.?

[Amerks8796]

Well, you know, Malone actually profiles as a 4th like center as opposed to Asplund. But think what you want. We’ve taken this about as far as it can go, so we’ll see how it plays out. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

9 hours ago, Amerks8796 said:

Well, you know, Malone actually profiles as a 4th like center as opposed to Asplund. But think what you want. We’ve taken this about as far as it can go, so we’ll see how it plays out. 

We agree on Malone and my spare parts comment was a quote by you. In no way was it meant to be derogatory to Malone as i said before "i like Malone.

I've enjoyed our sparring only I sometimes got the impression you didn't as much. Remember that these boards should be more fun and entertaining rather than a proving ground for who's right or wrong. we may BOTH be wrong but we both want what's best for our team. I like pushing people who are so adamant about something, into believing that a different outcome might exist  So take everything with a grain of salt and remember what you said....."In the end, it doesn’t really matter what you or I think"

I also thought a little about your question on who the last youngster might have been to push out a veteran. I did say that factual answer might not be possible and most times it's left to speculation. I came up with Dahlin.....Gorges not re-signed? How much of a factor do you think the Kane trade had on us staying in the lottery? What's your take on this?

[Amerks8796]

My question meant a veteran on the team who had a relatively firm grasp on a roster spot when camp opened, only to get beat out and waived by the end of camp. Because that would be what happens to Girgensons or Larsson if Asplund beats one of them out. 

[dudacek]

58 minutes ago, Amerks8796 said:

My question meant a veteran on the team who had a relatively firm grasp on a roster spot when camp opened, only to get beat out and waived by the end of camp. Because that would be what happens to Girgensons or Larsson if Asplund beats one of them out. 

The interesting thing is Girgensons, Larsson, Wilson, Pominville, Hunwick and Beaulieu are all vulnerable to something like happening this year.

It's the first time in ages we've had this many prospects challenging for jobs at the same time we've had this many vets under contract and standing in their way.

[Amerks8796]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

The interesting thing is Girgensons, Larsson, Wilson, Pominville, Hunwick and Beaulieu are all vulnerable to something like happening this year.

It's the first time in ages we've had this many prospects challenging for jobs at the same time we've had this many vets under contract and standing in their way.

Wilson is safe. Botterill traded for him and re-signed him. He’s not getting waived. Pominville is 100% safe as I believe he has a NMC and can’t get waived without his permission. I’d also be shocked if Girgensons got waived. His spot, in my opinion, is pretty safe. Larsson might be the odd man out, but I don’t think right away. It would be a situation of him playing poorly, combined with a prospect playing very well in Rochester to cause that. It won’t be out of training camp. That’s almost always how it works. 

Hunwick is vulnerable if Guhle makes it impossible to send him down. But only if he looks great in camp. Otherwise, he’s an ideal 7/8 defenseman who can sit in the press box. 

[Taro T]

19 hours ago, Amerks8796 said:

Wilson is safe. Botterill traded for him and re-signed him. He’s not getting waived. Pominville is 100% safe as I believe he has a NMC and can’t get waived without his permission. I’d also be shocked if Girgensons got waived. His spot, in my opinion, is pretty safe. Larsson might be the odd man out, but I don’t think right away. It would be a situation of him playing poorly, combined with a prospect playing very well in Rochester to cause that. It won’t be out of training camp. That’s almost always how it works. 

Hunwick is vulnerable if Guhle makes it impossible to send him down. But only if he looks great in camp. Otherwise, he’s an ideal 7/8 defenseman who can sit in the press box. 

You sure about Pominville having a NMC?  He was traded from the team that would've given him the contract w/ the NMC.  (Not saying you're wrong, just that this is the 1st I recall seeing him having a NMC.)

[GASabresIUFAN]

Capfriendly says both M-NTC and NMC.  I assume this means he can’t be removed from roster, except  through trade to certain teams.

Asplunds play last night probably added fire to the debate.

[pi2000]

On 9/6/2018 at 5:39 AM, Amerks8796 said:

This happens every training camp. Veterans usually always get the benefit of the doubt. Look at Moulson last year. He was awful. They still have him some time before waiving him. Asplund can win a permanent job this season, just not in September. 

IMO Asplund made a few plays last night that Larssons just isn't capable of.   You can't ignore that.

[Randall Flagg]

22 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

IMO Asplund made a few plays last night that Larssons just isn't capable of.   You can't ignore that.

You'd have a hard time convincing me Larsson is a better player than Asplund right this second. 

It still might be best for Asplund to start in Rochester, but that doesn't mean Larsson won't get beat out by other guys. 

[nfreeman]

 

Here's a way-too-early conclusion from last night's game -- especially since I've only seen highlights! -- there is a reasonable likelihood that at least 3 of Asplund, Olofsson, Tage and Nylander are going to force their way into the lineup at some point this year.

[pi2000]

I don't think there's any chance of Thompson starting the season in Rochester.

Olofosson is the most likely to start down there, then Asplund and Nylander.   

Would like to see Nylander have some sustained production at the AHL level before he moves up.

Asplund IMO is already a seasoned pro.   His offensive awareness and pick skills are light years ahead of Larsson.  

[jsb]

My opinion is 1C 2C 3C will be Eichel-Casey and Berglund. Casey will get the majority of the Offensive zone starts and Bergs will get a majority of the Defensive zone starts until Casey can prove he can handle it. From what I've seen of him (yes limited) he takes his defensive responsibilities seriously. He'll be more than fine when he gets acclimated to the league. 

There was one time in particular in the 3rd period of the prospects game where NJ came in on a 4 on 2 rush. Casey hustled into the play and did a nice job breaking things up before NJ could get anything rolling. He'll be fine. Speaking of the 3rd period there was one rush where Dahlin passed to Thompson who stick handled it in and passed to Casey that Casey bounced off the post. Just a beautiful looking play. Like I said not only he but they'll be fine.

[dudacek]

Casey didn't stand out offensively as much as he normally does last night, but I thought he was positionally strong and tenacious. Actually looked a bit like Asplund in some ways.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

On 9/7/2018 at 8:47 AM, Amerks8796 said:

My question meant a veteran on the team who had a relatively firm grasp on a roster spot when camp opened, only to get beat out and waived by the end of camp. Because that would be what happens to Girgensons or Larsson if Asplund beats one of them out. 

Have you read any posts on these boards....Larsson in particular, doesn't even have a firm grasp of his stick let alone a roster spot. Zemgus is the likely #2 consensus player to be gone.

Have you kept up on this prospect challenge? I think it's safe to say Asplund was in the top3 (maybe even top2) Sabres that participated and in all situations. I think he even led in points. 

[Amerks8796]

21 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Have you read any posts on these boards....Larsson in particular, doesn't even have a firm grasp of his stick let alone a roster spot. Zemgus is the likely #2 consensus player to be gone.

Have you kept up on this prospect challenge? I think it's safe to say Asplund was in the top3 (maybe even top2) Sabres that participated and in all situations. I think he even led in points. 

Yes I watched the first and third games and he looked great. Roster spots aren’t won in prospect challenges and my opinion hasn’t changed at all. Other posters opinions on prospects or roster decisions don’t impact my personal thoughts. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 minute ago, Amerks8796 said:

Yes I watched the first and third games and he looked great. Roster spots aren’t won in prospect challenges and my opinion hasn’t changed at all. Other posters opinions on prospects or roster decisions don’t impact my personal thoughts. 

Me either.....that's why we've been having these conversations!

on the idea that "roster spots aren't won in prospect challenges"....No doubt and I agree. However, camp is here yet and I think someone may have put penetrating oil on Larsson's stick.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I had to add fuel to the Asplund fire, but he looked really good in the prospect challenge.  Now lets see what he does in pre-season.  That said, I still doubt he makes the roster.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I had to add fuel to the Asplund fire, but he looked really good in the prospect challenge.  Now lets see what he does in pre-season.  That said, I still doubt he makes the roster.

You didn't do it ....Asplund did ?

I gotta say that he doesn't look out of place on the smaller rink though. I know his chances are slim out of camp but, he certainly didn't hurt any possibility.