LGR4GM Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) The Sabres need to wake up to the fact that you don't want these two together on the same line. They take away from each other because they are both puck possessors driving the lines they are on. Jack Eichel should not be deferring to Kane. Kane likewise should have his own line with Reinhart for example so he can do his thing. Housley and Botterill and the SABRES need to knock this off. Edited October 27, 2017 by LGR4GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 I trust Housley is more than aware of things than we are. He watches every game and every practice. He's played this game at a very high level. When it comes to lines we can discuss it but in the final say I'll trust the coach on who he puts together and the reasoning behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 I trust Housley is more than aware of things than we are. He watches every game and every practice. He's played this game at a very high level. When it comes to lines we can discuss it but in the final say I'll trust the coach on who he puts together and the reasoning behind it. I'm wondering if the reasoning may not be entirely performance related. Is it possible Kane is bolted (with lock nuts and safety wire) to Eichel's hip for protection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 I'm wondering if the reasoning may not be entirely performance related. Is it possible Kane is bolted (with lock nuts and safety wire) to Eichel's hip for protection? Frankly I don't know Housley's reasoning but I'm certainly not going to put mine ahead of his on who plays with who. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 Frankly I don't know Housley's reasoning but I'm certainly not going to put mine ahead of his on who plays with who. Sometimes an outside observer can see things people that are close to the situation cannot. Kane could also be there to beef up his numbers for trade purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 I'm wondering if the reasoning may not be entirely performance related. Is it possible Kane is bolted (with lock nuts and safety wire) to Eichel's hip for protection? How much protection do you expect Eichel needs? Have you seen how he can use a stiff arm while carrying the puck and create space? Not too many guys are as strong as Eichel & he's still only 20 for another day or 2. If their worried about having a guy that could probably use a little more deference paired w/ a guy that has shown to be a good fighter on the few occassions he's fought, move Kane to Reinhart's wing & let Evander be Sam's knight in shining armor & move Girgensons to Eichel's wing. Gretzky needed protection; Lemieux, not so much. (And, yes, Lemieux did get injured on occassion and had a bad back. But he rarely got cheap shotted. The slash across the wrist wouldn't have broken it if he wore gloves w/ cuffs & wasn't a cheap shot per se.) It's not friggin' rocket science. Sometimes an outside observer can see things people that are close to the situation cannot. Kane could also be there to beef up his numbers for trade purposes. How many 5v5 points does he have w/ Eichel? 3? Maybe. Girgensons has that many in 5 periods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 Sometimes an outside observer can see things people that are close to the situation cannot. Kane could also be there to beef up his numbers for trade purposes. How is that going? :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 How is that going? :P :) Well, Kane is on pace for roughly 45-37-82 for the season, pretty well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 Sometimes an outside observer can see things people that are close to the situation cannot. Kane could also be there to beef up his numbers for trade purposes. How is that going? :P :) Well, Kane is on pace for roughly 45-37-82 for the season, pretty well! Agreed and this is what I've been saying. Whether the fans on this forum want to give the team a pass this season the truth is that Botterill and Housley have one. If you are making the long play you are attaching Eichel and Kane so that Kane's numbers go up. Either because Jack feeds him or because teams focus on Jack and leave Kane open more. Either way, if the Sabres can maximize Kane's trade value to make significant improvements in the team for next year then it's worth it. That said.. if the point counts stay stagnant I would expect them to move Kane to another line anyway. I'm just operating under the assumption that they are putting Kane out there to showcase him as much as possible so they can get a great trade. I am not thinking deadline deal either. I am thinking more like December or earlier if they feel they need to pull the trigger sooner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) Since game 2, Eichel and Kane have played a role in one even-strength goal for together, despite spending 23 of those 27 periods together. In those 4 periods apart, Eichel and Girgensons, the combo that has always done well and we've been calling for since before last season, played a role in 3 even-strength goals for. Even not accounting for stats, the two skate into each other's lanes and have no idea how to read each other. Note the shorthanded rush where they were on top of each other the whole time, or the fact that the only offense they ever create is when one or the other rushes the puck by themselves. They are also both large defensive liabilities, their shifts in recent games have killed the momentum that other lines have generated by possessing the puck, especially in the first two periods of the Columbus game. Also, Kane missing the open nets that Jack gives him perpetually. The miss in the one-goal Vancouver game was devastating. It simply doesn't make any sense to continue playing these guys together. 3 even strength goals have been scored for Buffalo with Eichel and Kane both taking part, in 11 games. They screw up cycles, they both make bad decisions with the puck, and they both get perpetually hemmed in their own zone. We are neutering our best player by playing him with a guy who has negative chemistry with him. Sure, let them PK together. Let them play with an empty net at the end and 6 attackers. But stop hampering our best player at even strength, especially when doing so means having 2 garbage ineffective lines at the bottom instead of 1. Girgensons - Eichel - Reinhart Pouliot - ROR - Okposo Kane - Larsson - Bailey Boom. Fixed. Edit: I even forgot about Pominville. He can slide in somewhere, surely. If phil wants to keep Sam at center then have Larsson on the 4th, Sam in his spot, and Pominville with Eich and Zemgus. Edited October 27, 2017 by Randall Flagg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 Since game 2, Eichel and Kane have played a role in one even-strength goal for together, despite spending 32 of those 36 periods together. In those 4 periods apart, Eichel and Girgensons, the combo that has always done well and we've been calling for since before last season, played a role in 3 even-strength goals for. Even not accounting for stats, the two skate into each other's lanes and have no idea how to read each other. Note the shorthanded rush where they were on top of each other the whole time, or the fact that the only offense they ever create is when one or the other rushes the puck by themselves. They are also both large defensive liabilities, their shifts in recent games have killed the momentum that other lines have generated by possessing the puck, especially in the first two periods of the Columbus game. Also, Kane missing the open nets that Jack gives him perpetually. The miss in the one-goal Vancouver game was devastating. It simply doesn't make any sense to continue playing these guys together. 2 even strength goals have been scored for Buffalo with Eichel and Kane both taking part, in 11 games. They screw up cycles, they both make bad decisions with the puck, and they both get perpetually hemmed in their own zone. We are neutering our best player by playing him with a guy who has negative chemistry with him. Sure, let them PK together. Let them play with an empty net at the end and 6 attackers. But stop hampering our best player at even strength, especially when doing so means having 2 garbage ineffective lines at the bottom instead of 1. Girgensons - Eichel - Reinhart Pouliot - ROR - Okposo Kane - Larsson - Bailey Boom. Fixed. Edit: I even forgot about Pominville. He can slide in somewhere, surely. If phil wants to keep Sam at center then have Larsson on the 4th, Sam in his spot, and Pominville with Eich and Zemgus. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 You missed Pominville. Plug him in Reinhart’s spot and Reinhart where Larsson is. It’s interesting how we have the horses for three capable lines, but we just haven’t used them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 Agreed and this is what I've been saying. Whether the fans on this forum want to give the team a pass this season the truth is that Botterill and Housley have one. If you are making the long play you are attaching Eichel and Kane so that Kane's numbers go up. Either because Jack feeds him or because teams focus on Jack and leave Kane open more. Either way, if the Sabres can maximize Kane's trade value to make significant improvements in the team for next year then it's worth it. That said.. if the point counts stay stagnant I would expect them to move Kane to another line anyway. I'm just operating under the assumption that they are putting Kane out there to showcase him as much as possible so they can get a great trade. I am not thinking deadline deal either. I am thinking more like December or earlier if they feel they need to pull the trigger sooner. The theory is at least as good, and likely better, than the one that they keep playing on the same line because Housley is wowwed by the speed they both possess & that Kane & Eichel probably do look extremely good together in the controlled environment of practice where Kane's lack of vision is mitigated by knowing where the puck & players are supposed to/ will be located as the drill progresses. The problem w/ them playing together 5v5 in actual game action in an effort to increase Kane's trade value is that THEY DON'T SCORE 5v5 when playing together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 Josefson Nolan Larsson is also a fourth line with some utility. I actually kinda like our forward mix if Bailey steps up and Sam and Kyle were playing to their usual standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 You missed Pominville. Plug him in Reinhart’s spot and Reinhart where Larsson is. It’s interesting how we have the horses for three capable lines, but we just haven’t used them. That is the combination that I'd prefer to see as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 Also Fill, while you're at it, Risto getting 29 minutes is not a good idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) As of Tuesday, they both were in the top ten in the league in points. Edited October 27, 2017 by Eleven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) As of Tuesday, they both were in the top ten in the league in points. With 2 goals having anything to do with each other at even strength in 29 periods. So, 27 periods of absolutely nothing but getting in each other's way. Edited October 27, 2017 by Randall Flagg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 With 2 goals having anything to do with each other at even strength in 29 periods. So, 27 periods of absolutely nothing but getting in each other's way. I am certain that you've been able to watch more games than I have--especially with the West Coast trip--so I'll trust you here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 I am certain that you've been able to watch more games than I have--especially with the West Coast trip--so I'll trust you here. I am now bald because of the times they've made me pull my hair out! Also, I've edited my original post, because apparently in Flagg-land 9*3=36. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 As of Tuesday, they both were in the top ten in the league in points. They were. Imagine how much better the Sabres record could be if rather than inhibiting each other 5v5 they were contributing to the play of their linemates or, at a minimum, doing their own thing & letting their linemates do theirs as well. Very few of Kane's points were created/finished by Eichel 5v5. There are very few others on the team that can say that at this point. Why not let him help get so eone else going. Especially now that O'Reilly is starting to get points, by moving Kane to a Reinhart centered line similar to how the Pens deploy Kessel, the Sabres could have something they haven't seen since '07 - 3 lines that all could actually pot a goal in any given game. (Apparently, we certainly don't want THAT to happen. :angry:) Additionally, splitting them up would likely improve the team's play overall in its own end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 So one last thing to consider with the Kane and Eichel thing for a trade. If Kane is not with Jack then Kane is not on the first line. If Kane is not on the first line then the la la land of hockey GMs Kane is not a 1st line player and as such does not demand as much value. Productive or not, if he gets 1st line minutes he's seen as a 1st liner and other GMs will think more heavily about him being a 1st line player and at a minimum 2nd liner with 1st line potential. Just because Kane and Eichel don't mix doesn't mean Kane and <insert trading partner's 1st line C> won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted October 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 I don't agree with that take. If he produced that is what GM's care about. Whether or not he is on Buffalo's first or second line I don't think matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) At least 1 GM (not residing in Winnipeg) considered him to potentially be a 1st line winger even though, when healthy, he was playing on the Jets 3rd line. Do you believe that should Pittsburgh decide to trade Kessel that they'd only net an eh prospect & a 3rd rounder because he's a 3rd line winger in their system? The scouts & GM's that are considering trading for Kane are going to see his scoring this year & know his past history. They aren't going to get tricked into believing he's more than he is because he's on a bottom feeder's top line. Especially if 80% of his scoring is occurring in situations that he isn't on that 5v5 1st line. And, it is very counterintuitive IMHO to cost your team points in the standings to try to pry a 2nd pairing D (or whatever the prize at the bottom of the Cracker Jack box is) away from another team. This team has been in 8 essentially 1 goal games this season. Adding even 2 more goals to the team's total by splitting those 2 up (& I'd hazard that would be the minimum more they'd have) could easily have them w/ at least 1 more W at this point. They'd have 10 points in 11 games w/ some winnable games coming up. 12 points in 10 is right on pace to be a virtual playoff lock. Whatever they might think their gaining just doesn't seem to be worth it from my vantage point. Your mileage may vary. ;) [Edit: something about the <> LTS used caused the reply post to be totally scrambled. :oops:] Edited October 27, 2017 by Taro T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) At least 1 GM (not residing in Winnipeg) considered him to potentially be a 1st line winger even though, when healthy, he was playing on the Jets 3rd line. Do you believe that should Pittsburgh decide to trade Kessel that they'd only net an eh prospect & a 3rd rounder because he's a 3rd line winger in their system? The scouts & GM's that are considering trading for Kane are going to see his scoring this year & know his past history. They aren't going to get tricked into believing he's more than he is because he's on a bottom feeder's top line. Especially if 80% of his scoring is occurring in situations that he isn't on that 5v5 1st line. And, it is very counterintuitive IMHO to cost your team points in the standings to try to pry a 2nd pairing D (or whatever the prize at the bottom of the Cracker Jack box is) away from another team. This team has been in 8 essentially 1 goal games this season. Adding even 2 more goals to the team's total by splitting those 2 up (& I'd hazard that would be the minimum more they'd have) could easily have them w/ at least 1 more W at this point. They'd have 10 points in 11 games w/ some winnable games coming up. 12 points in 10 is right on pace to be a virtual playoff lock. Whatever they might think their gaining just doesn't seem to be worth it from my vantage point. Your mileage may vary. ;) [Edit: something about the <> LTS used caused the reply post to be totally scrambled. :oops:] Id like to see Kane and Jack split up too if for nothing else to see what else is possible. Keep Kane with speed say either Bailey or Zemgus with Sam or RoR dont care. Put Jack with the other plus Pommer and keep Pulliot on line with KO and the other center ROR or Sam... Sabres need scoring and I just dont see enough out of these wingers. Not sure any of this will help... still a lack of Talent which is why Housley may be keeping this connection. Edited October 27, 2017 by North Buffalo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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