Players not listening to Dan?

[SwampD]

I might be mis-remembering, but wasn't the 06-07 team notorious for having to come back late in games, especially in the first half of the season? I don't think 06-07 was when the "Alamo mode" was coined. I think that came later. 

And to add to the notion of the team having a couple more comeback wins in the 3rd being an indicator of "becoming more mature", I would argue that this really should not be what we want as evidence of a team that is maturing. A team that is maturing might blow games in the third, but if they're waiting for the 3rd period to try to mount comebacks in almost half their games, they're not maturing. Rather, I would argue that this is indicative of a team that is stagnating. 

That is making my point for me. They had to shorten their bench all the time to come back and would often only play two lines to comeback and win. They had a lack of depth that was brough out in the playoffs.

[darksabre]

That is making my point for me. They had to shorten their bench all the time to come back and would often only play two lines to comeback and win. They had a lack of depth that was brough out in the playoffs.

That's not the point though is it? All teams shorten their bench as needed. Lindy discovered that Alamo mode with a lead was a better tactic, which is born out in historical trends. 

 

If DDB is waiting until the 3rd to deploy this tactic, then he's at fault for not making the choices that let this team carry leads into the third. Trying to come from behind in every game is not a good strategy, especially if you think the roster is limited. 

[Randall Flagg]

Speaking of Alamo mode with the lead, we have the worst CF% when leading in the entire NHL, almost 2 full percentage points below #29 Arizona. It's 39.something%

[darksabre]

Speaking of Alamo mode with the lead, we have the worst CF% when leading in the entire NHL, almost 2 full percentage points below #29 Arizona. It's 39.something%

Do we have a breakdown for that by period? 

[JJFIVEOH]

So you're sayin' we're due, right?

[Randall Flagg]

Do we have a breakdown for that by period? 

Not that I know of. 

 

Our CF% when trailing is fifth-worst. 

[That Aud Smell]

Speaking of Alamo mode with the lead, we have the worst CF% when leading in the entire NHL, almost 2 full percentage points below #29 Arizona. It's 39.something%

 

That squares with Eichel's eye test.

[darksabre]

Not that I know of. 

 

Our CF% when trailing is fifth-worst. 

So really, it's not like we're stepping our game up that much when we're trailing (which we are mostly doing in the 3rd period). Which sorta gets back to my other point, which is that I don't think there's anything special that we're doing in the 3rd period that has us with a couple more wins than other teams. I think it might just be luck. 

[Randall Flagg]

So really, it's not like we're stepping our game up that much when we're trailing (which we are mostly doing in the 3rd period). Which sorta gets back to my other point, which is that I don't think there's anything special that we're doing in the 3rd period that has us with a couple more wins than other teams. I think it might just be luck. 

And our talent, to a degree. We're a team with a lot of holes, but throwing ROR, Eichel, Reinhart, Okposo, Kane, and Risto out there on repeat for 10 minutes gets you a much better chance at getting a goal than what some other teams have to offer. Even if they're not playing with a structure conducive to winning over an extended period of time.

[SwampD]

That's not the point though is it? All teams shorten their bench as needed. Lindy discovered that Alamo mode with a lead was a better tactic, which is born out in historical trends. 

 

If DDB is waiting until the 3rd to deploy this tactic, then he's at fault for not making the choices that let this team carry leads into the third. Trying to come from behind in every game is not a good strategy, especially if you think the roster is limited. 

Are you telling me that Lindy only rolled two lines until he had a lead and then went Alamo? This just isn't true.

 

If he had a lead he went into Alamo mode. But he first tried to win with the whole team, just like Dan and every other coach does, as you've said.

 

 

And even if it was a thing, which I doubt, I wouldn't wan't them doing it at this point in our rebuild anyway. Otherwise, just have only 15 players on the bench and keep all the young guys who need ice tice down in the A.

[nfreeman]

(occurs to me: you're totally the hoff there.)

 

So I get the weird necklace while you get the cool mustache and the embrace with a hottie?

 

Such is the mod's lot in life.

[darksabre]

Are you telling me that Lindy only rolled two lines until he had a lead and then went Alamo? This just isn't true.

 

If he had a lead he went into Alamo mode. But he first tried to win with the whole team, just like Dan and every other coach does, as you've said.

 

 

And even if it was a thing, which I doubt, I wouldn't wan't them doing it at this point in our rebuild anyway. Otherwise, just have only 15 players on the bench and keep all the young guys who need ice tice down in the A.

I'm not saying that's what Lindy did, I'm just arguing he recognized the value of getting a lead and trying to close on it. If DDB is waiting till late in games to shorten the bench and get a lead, then he's doing something wrong. Why run guys like Risto into the ground playing huge minutes in the third periods of games where the likelihood of winning the game is very low?

[That Aud Smell]

So I get the weird necklace while you get the cool mustache and the embrace with a hottie?

 

Such is the mod's lot in life.

 

:lol:

 

:P

[GASabresIUFAN]

For all the flack sent DD's way, i have a simple question. What was your expectation for this season? Playoff team? Division champion? Cup contender? Near playoff team? What?

 

I went and looked at what some of the experts and media thought. NHL.com - no playoffs this year. CBS - 6th in the Atlantic. USAtoday - 6th in Atl with 78 pts. Sportsnet.ca - last in the East with 70 pts. SI - 13th in the East.

 

We are currently 13th in the East and 6th in the Atlantic on a pace for about 84 pts. We are only 5 pts out of a playoff spot. We are 17-14-5 since Jack returned , or a 89 pt pace. Seems we are what we were expected to be, maybe a little better.

 

Would be having this discussion at all if Jack was healthy all year? Should we give DD some credit for surviving with a decimated D group that has only had the 6 starters in the lineup for 5 games of the last 48?

 

Also why is everyone ignoring the great coaching job he did Pitt during 2010-2011. I guess this additional evidence doesn't support your theory.

[SwampD]

I'm not saying that's what Lindy did, I'm just arguing he recognized the value of getting a lead and trying to close on it. If DDB is waiting till late in games to shorten the bench and get a lead, then he's doing something wrong. Why run guys like Risto into the ground playing huge minutes in the third periods of games where the likelihood of winning the game is very low?

Gotcha. Dan doesn't recognize the value of getting a lead.

 

So,... if Lindy got it,... then why the need for all of those late comebacks after he shortened the bench in '06-'07?

 

 

I'm done. You don't like Dan, as others do. Nothing I say is going to change that.

 

I'm getting to the point where I want him gone just so I don't have to hear any more if this irational exuberance of hate.

[Randall Flagg]

For all the flack sent DD's way, i have a simple question. What was your expectation for this season? Playoff team? Division champion? Cup contender? Near playoff team? What?

 

I went and looked at what some of the experts and media thought. NHL.com - no playoffs this year. CBS - 6th in the Atlantic. USAtoday - 6th in Atl with 78 pts. Sportsnet.ca - last in the East with 70 pts. SI - 13th in the East.

 

We are currently 13th in the East and 6th in the Atlantic on a pace for about 84 pts. We are only 5 pts out of a playoff spot. We are 17-14-5 since Jack returned , or a 89 pt pace. Seems we are what we were expected to be, maybe a little better.

 

Would be having this discussion at all if Jack was healthy all year? Should we give DD some credit for surviving with a decimated D group that has only had the 6 starters in the lineup for 5 games of the last 48?

 

Also why is everyone ignoring the great coaching job he did Pitt during 2010-2011. I guess this additional evidence doesn't support your theory.

My expectations were better than 3rd worst possession metrics, better than 40% win percentage, and an entertaining brand of hockey. It's over now, and everyone has moved on, but I refuse to forget the 25 game stretch where he intentionally dialed us back so much that we were scoring and possessing the puck at rates worse than the tank teams while only missing Jack and Kane, and still possessing 5 players that scored more the previous season than the highest scoring tank roster player.

 

Lots of people here, me included, have had extensive discussions about Bylsma, from his first season in Pittsburgh and what he did to tweak Therrien's system to his implementation of his own and their execution of it afterwards. Just because you don't feel like looking for it and because it didn't happen on this particular page of this particular thread doesn't mean that people who don't like Dan are fools that just dismiss any piece of evidence that doesn't fit their agenda, and I think you should know better than implying something like that. 

 

And like I said before, I'm done going through all of the anti-Bylsma arguments. I've done it a nauseating amount of times, and I bet D4rk/True/etc are sick of doing it as well. You can look back at GDTs from the games against teams that we got swept by this year, and plenty of other places, if you're inclined to hear what the stupid DD h8ers have to say.

[darksabre]

Gotcha. Dan doesn't recognize the value of getting a lead.

 

So,... if Lindy got it,... then why the need for all of those late comebacks after he shortened the bench in '06-'07?

 

 

I'm done. You don't like Dan, as others do. Nothing I say is going to change that.

 

I'm getting to the point where I want him gone just so I don't have to hear any more if this irational exuberance of hate.

I know you're being sarcastic, but I think this is true.

Lindy got away with it for a while, but not forever, right? The team was rolling through the first half of 06-07 until they regressed to the mean, then they struggled though the second half and coasted to the President's Trophy on all the good luck they had with that approach at the beginning of the season. Once it stopped working, Lindy stopped using it, no? They stopped being the comeback kids because trying to win games in the 3rd period isn't a sustainable strategy. They won tons of games without using that strategy. Didn't they start the year 21-0 or something nuts? They only did it because they could. They were lucky and it netted them a bunch of wins they didn't need, but were able to get anyway. Coming back to win in the third is basically a bonus win. 

 

Shortening the bench in the 3rd to come from behind isn't sustainable. If you can do it, fine. The 06-07 Sabres could do it (for a little while). But it's not the way to win games consistently. Especially when you're not a President's Trophy level team, which no one is arguing this current team is. A team like this requires a different strategy, which we are not seeing deployed, if I'm to take your word for it that Bylsma is shortening the bench in the 3rd to try to get some points on the board. 

[SwampD]

I know you're being sarcastic, but I think this is true.

Lindy got away with it for a while, but not forever, right? The team was rolling through the first half of 06-07 until they regressed to the mean, then they struggled though the second half and coasted to the President's Trophy on all the good luck they had with that approach at the beginning of the season. Once it stopped working, Lindy stopped using it, no? They stopped being the comeback kids because trying to win games in the 3rd period isn't a sustainable strategy. They won tons of games without using that strategy. Didn't they start the year 21-0 or something nuts? They only did it because they could. They were lucky and it netted them a bunch of wins they didn't need, but were able to get anyway. Coming back to win in the third is basically a bonus win. 

 

Shortening the bench in the 3rd to come from behind isn't sustainable. If you can do it, fine. The 06-07 Sabres could do it (for a little while). But it's not the way to win games consistently. Especially when you're not a President's Trophy level team, which no one is arguing this current team is. A team like this requires a different strategy, which we are not seeing deployed, if I'm to take your word for it that Bylsma is shortening the bench in the 3rd to try to get some points on the board. 

So you basically agree with everything I have said only have reworded it with a lot more words. :D 

 

What I disagree with is thinking that a different strategy alone is all it will take to get more wins.

 

When you are the Sabres, come from behind wins absolutely are bonus wins. When you are the Penguins or Hawks, come from behind wins are reverting to the mean.

[darksabre]

So you basically agree with everything I have said only have reworded it with a lot more words. :D

 

What I disagree with is thinking that a different strategy alone is all it will take to get more wins.

 

When you are the Sabres, come from behind wins absolutely are bonus wins. When you are the Penguins or Hawks, come from behind wins are reverting to the mean.

Well, that is where we disagree. That's the whole point of why we disagree on Bylsma. I think his strategy is flawed given the roster and what we should be doing for development of the younger players. I think he's a loser who has foisted a conservative approach onto a team that desperately needs to be allowed to go in a different direction.

 

I could live with more losses if I thought this team was doing anything significant developmentally. But I don't see anything. They're the same team they were at the beginning of the year just with a few key players plugged back in. They aren't getting any better though. They aren't showing actual improvement. That was all we needed from Bylsma. 

[WildCard]

Article on the secret to protecting a lead in the NHL

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2017/02/13/theres-no-secret-to-protecting-a-lead/

Imagine my beer league team played the San Jose Sharks and automatically started with a 1-0 lead. My team would blow that lead almost immediately, but it wouldn’t be because we’re particularly bad at protecting leads compared to other skills. It’s just because the Sharks are way better than us at hockey.

 

Whether or not the team protects leads should not be used as a diagnostic tool. If a team is blowing a lot of their leads, the solution isn’t necessarily to get more shutdown players who can prevent the next goal; rather it might be to get better offensive players so that the lead becomes larger. The route you take doesn’t matter as long as you build a team that consistently outscores their opponents.

Edited February 16, 2017 by WildCard

[WildCard]

Coincidence we're smoking teams with crappy systems and getting our ass handed to us by those that have possession style play?

 

@ByMHarrington  19h19 hours ago

More

Updating goofy #Sabres stat: They went 6-0-2 vs. OTT and NYR this year -- but are 0-10-2 vs. BOS, NJ, CAR, TB, with 2 left vs. TB

[JJFIVEOH]

For all the flack sent DD's way, i have a simple question. What was your expectation for this season? Playoff team? Division champion? Cup contender? Near playoff team? What?

 

I went and looked at what some of the experts and media thought. NHL.com - no playoffs this year. CBS - 6th in the Atlantic. USAtoday - 6th in Atl with 78 pts. Sportsnet.ca - last in the East with 70 pts. SI - 13th in the East.

 

We are currently 13th in the East and 6th in the Atlantic on a pace for about 84 pts. We are only 5 pts out of a playoff spot. We are 17-14-5 since Jack returned , or a 89 pt pace. Seems we are what we were expected to be, maybe a little better.

 

Would be having this discussion at all if Jack was healthy all year? Should we give DD some credit for surviving with a decimated D group that has only had the 6 starters in the lineup for 5 games of the last 48?

 

Also why is everyone ignoring the great coaching job he did Pitt during 2010-2011. I guess this additional evidence doesn't support your theory.

 

I expected a continuation of what we saw the 2nd half of last year. Except this year they should have been better because they had a full year under a new coach, they had the addition of Okposo, and a full year together. The loss of Eichel should not demolish this team, if a team is that reliant on one single player, Murray should be gone because he didn't do his job. 

 

The were on a 94 point pace the last 41 games last year. There is no excuse for them to not at least match that. 

[Scottysabres]

So did Murray step in and spank some pee pee's :D

[GASabresIUFAN]

I hate to beat this horse a little bit more, but I found this comment by Jerry Sullivan and I thought it quite telling. http://buffalonews.com/2017/02/15/sullys-mailbag-dont-sabres-show-thursdays/

 

Sullivan writes, responding to a tweet about replacing DD.

You're not a bad person for wondering if the Sabres would perform better with a different coach than Dan Bylsma. A lot of fans are having similar thoughts these days. Judging from the mumbling coming from around the team, I suspect some of the players are wondering the same thing.

But it's not Bylsma's fault that GM Tim Murray gave him a weak defense, which makes it hard to play the uptempo style that many fans and players like. I don't imagine Julien would work wonders with a defense that allows the most shots on goal in the league.

 

I think this encapsulates the arguments on this board, but even Sully understands it's hard to play some great up tempo system when our defense sucks!

 

As I've said before, this mess is GMTM's fault.

Edited February 17, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Doohickie]

It seems that word around the league in general is that Bylsma is doing.... okay.  Reports I've heard/read recently sound similar to what Sully said above, but with a more positive spin (i.e., not specifically calling out the defense, but just stating that it takes time for a team to develop its young talent.)

Edited February 17, 2017 by Doohickie