Patrick Kane: [Updated] D.A. Decides Not to Prosecute; NHL Determines Claims "Unfounded"

[darksabre]

Now you're just lying

 

 

Lying? Hardly. You placed violent/rape pornography on a level with pedophilia and japanese tentacle porn. You intend to squirrel it away in some small deviant corner with the stuff that gets you arrested and the truly bizarre. Unfortunately for your argument it is far too prevalent to be grouped as such. 

[bunomatic]

Sure they would, there is plenty of amateur people who do it for the thrill of it. they wouldn't make as much of it, nor would it have nearly the quality, but it'd be out there. 

True there will always be people who make porn for their own enjoyment but the porn industry exists to make money. Traffic is what makes money online. If people weren't stopping in they would move onto a topic that did create traffic. To clarify I'm not picking sides. Mostly lurking and enjoying the convo. Now I've gots to go to work.

[WildCard]

Lying? Hardly. You placed violent/rape pornography on a level with pedophilia and japanese tentacle porn. You intend to squirrel it away in some small deviant corner with the stuff that gets you arrested and the truly bizarre. Unfortunately for your argument it is far too prevalent to be grouped as such. 

Yes, you are lying above. You said I didn't believe it existed, even though on the previous page I said I did. That is a lie.

 

I placed those types of pornographies on the same level as they aren't as prevalent as other types of porn are. Indeed Hentai porn is more prevalent than rape fantasy; something you would know if you had actually looked at my evidence rather than dismissing them and simply concede a point. It is possible to be wrong d4rk, there's nothing bad about it. Hell, I'm usually wrong whenever I argue with TrueBlue, at least I'll admit it. 

[darksabre]

Yes, you are lying above. You said I didn't believe it existed, even though on the previous page I said I did. That is a lie.

 

I placed those types of pornographies on the same level as they aren't as prevalent as other types of porn are. Indeed Hentai porn is more prevalent than rape fantasy; something you would know if you had actually looked at my evidence rather than dismissing them and simply concede a point. It is possible to be wrong d4rk, there's nothing bad about it. Hell, I'm usually wrong whenever I argue with TrueBlue, at least I'll admit it. 

 

I said you didn't believe demand existed. You've admitted as much by trying to minimize that perceived demand. But you haven't disproved it. 

 

You're also attempting to create lines where there aren't. How much of something like hentai is also rape fantasy? 50%? Higher? Have you ever watched any? I think you'll be able to answer my question if you have. 

[WildCard]

I said you didn't believe demand existed. You've admitted as much by trying to minimize that perceived demand. But you haven't disproved it. 

 

You're also attempting to create lines where there aren't. How much of something like hentai is also rape fantasy? 50%? Higher? Have you ever watched any? I think you'll be able to answer my question if you have. 

If you honestly believe I think the demand doesn't exist, then you've merely been glossing over my argument; time and time again I have stood by the stats I posted that prove the demand exists, just not at a high level, or even a median level. 

 

You're right, we should just consider all porn rape porn, and all people who watch porn as those who belong to a rape culture. 

You're entire argument here was that a rape culture is pervasive in this country based on the fact that a supply of rape fantasies exists in American porn. I agreed to that [its presence], but said it is a very small minority of people that view such, and backed it up. Since then, all you've done is clung to that small minority. So what? Are we to just apply stereotypes to all sets of people now? 

Edited August 18, 2015 by WildCard

[qwksndmonster]

I'm really not sure what d4rk is arguing here.  Some porn exists so.... ???  I'm sure I'm just closing my eyes and refusing to see.

[PASabreFan]

With the websites being mentioned here, I just know this will be the day where IT checks in to see what I'm reading online.

I just wish they'd stop saying "do the leg work."

[darksabre]

If you honestly believe I think the demand doesn't exist, then you've merely been glossing over my argument; time and time again I have stood by the stats I posted that prove the demand exists, just not at a high level, or even a median level. 

 

You're right, we should just consider all porn rape porn, and all people who watch porn as those who belong to a rape culture. 

You're entire argument here was that a rape culture is pervasive in this country based on the fact that a supply of rape fantasies exists in American porn. I agreed to that [its presence], but said it is a very small minority of people that view such, and backed it up. Since then, all you've done is clung to that small minority. So what? Are we to just apply stereotypes to all sets of people now? 

 

You're arguing a small minority based on direct search results from one site. 

 

But what you fail to understand is that just because something isn't classified as "rape porn" or something equally violent, or that it isn't directly searched for, doesn't mean it doesn't contain elements that drive psychological tendencies in the sexual desire of men towards violence and force. 

 

You have to see to understand. When some of the most popular pornography series are deliberate portrayals of "victimization of the innocent" those things feed the "rape culture" that you deny exists. 

 

We've been painting a picture since the Girls Gone Wild days that women and girls want to be exploited. That they want to be taken advantage of. That they want to be used. There's no way that this mentality doesn't influence young men, especially in a world where these ideas are accessed with greater ease than ever before. 

 

 

[TrueBlueGED]

This idea. Blaming the victim. The "she must have deserved it" idea. What was she wearing. Or slut-shaming. Calling a victim a "gold-digger'?

 

Is this what we are really talking about when we say "rape culture" ?

 

The metalanguage used to discuss the sexual assault?

 

If so, I think a case could be made for "pervasive," at least in terms of comments like that being widespread.

 

I was hung up on the idea, (and maybe still am) that "normalized" means that sexual assault is socially acceptable. I'm still balking there.

You basically hit the nail on the head: the problem with talking about rape culture is that it's referred to as rape culture. People take it to mean something far more explicit, acceptable and wide-ranging than what it actually means. This in turn results in a very harsh reaction, and often times, complete rejection of the arguments contained within on their face. We need a better phrase.

[Fidelio]

I think that is part of what's being discussed with rape culture, yeah. Words matter. A lot. And they reveal a lot, too.

 

I think the term "socially acceptable" is a murky one. Sure, 99% of polled Americans would reject sexual assault as a taboo. But dig a little deeper. Scratch the surface a bit. What did the person being asked understand when s/he heard the term "sexual assault." Is it a perverted stranger jumping out of an alley? Or is it that guy you just met at the bar and led on by grinding up on his pelvis on the dance floor? Is it your boyfriend of 3 years who's looking for some love and you're just not in the mood? Same question for a lady's husband. The attitudes and views will become more varied as the facts become more detailed. Such as has been the case here, I think.

 

 

Or, you know, you can go to the home page and just click on a category (e.g, eel pr0n).  :ph34r:

 

 

This is not just anything. It's a big, fluid conversation with lots of ideas and concepts being discussed.

 

Not sure you read what i said.  Your emphasis on just as in "only" is incorrect when considering the context of my statement.  What I meant was just as, or in other words, as much or to the same degree.

 

Im saying that allowing emotional impulses to override the higher judgment of the conscious mind in the act of making strong and unsubstantiated assumptions that bury the notion of logic on the level of a system of social organization, is as dangerous as someone who slowly resigns to their darker impulses despite a higher awareness that they (the impulses and the behaviors they cause) are wrong/ immoral/ unethical.  

 

I was attempting to contribute to the big fluid conversation. 

But this hasn't been my thread so far LOL...

[qwksndmonster]

You're arguing a small minority based on direct search results from one site. 

 

But what you fail to understand is that just because something isn't classified as "rape porn" or something equally violent, or that it isn't directly searched for, doesn't mean it doesn't contain elements that drive psychological tendencies in the sexual desire of men towards violence and force. 

 

You have to see to understand. When some of the most popular pornography series are deliberate portrayals of "victimization of the innocent" those things feed the "rape culture" that you deny exists. 

 

We've been painting a picture since the Girls Gone Wild days that women and girls want to be exploited. That they want to be taken advantage of. That they want to be used. There's no way that this mentality doesn't influence young men, especially in a world where these ideas are accessed with greater ease than ever before. 

 

 

I have a better understanding of what you were going for now.

To the bolded:  It's too easy to say that porn "drives the psychological tendencies in the sexual desire of men towards force."  Their attitude towards women can certainly be adversely affected by the fact that women are usually depicted as desiring of exploitation (that's kind of a pornstar's job).  Crappy attitudes can certainly lead to more problems down the road, but there's so many more steps between the psychology behind pornography (most of which is "I'm horny") and the psychology of a violent rapist.  I think we pretty much agree, but the connection you're trying to make between porn and rape is much too strained for me.

 

Is our societal sexism ever present in pornography?  Sure, but it's present everywhere.

[That Aud Smell]

I just wish they'd stop saying "do the leg work."

 

friends don't let friends skip the leg work.

 

 

Not sure you read what i said.  Your emphasis on just as in "only" is incorrect when considering the context of my statement.  What I meant was just as, or in other words, as much or to the same degree.

 

Im saying that allowing emotional impulses to override the higher judgment of the conscious mind in the act of making strong and unsubstantiated assumptions that bury the notion of logic on the level of a system of social organization, is as dangerous as someone who slowly resigns to their darker impulses despite a higher awareness that they (the impulses and the behaviors they cause) are wrong/ immoral/ unethical.  

 

I was attempting to contribute to the big fluid conversation. 

But this hasn't been my thread so far LOL...

 

Oh, okay. Gotcha now. 

 

So, a bleeding-heart PC cop run amok is as dangerous as someone who acts on dark temptations despite knowing those acts are wrong.

 

Um, no.

Edited August 18, 2015 by That Aud Smell

[darksabre]

I have a better understanding of what you were going for now.

To the bolded: It's too easy to say that porn "drives the psychological tendencies in the sexual desire of men towards force." Their attitude towards women can certainly be adversely affected by the fact that women are usually depicted as desiring of exploitation (that's kind of a pornstar's job). Crappy attitudes can certainly lead to more problems down the road, but there's so many more steps between the psychology behind pornography (most of which is "I'm horny") and the psychology of a violent rapist. I think we pretty much agree, but the connection you're trying to make between porn and rape is much too strained for me.

 

Is our societal sexism ever present in pornography? Sure, but it's present everywhere.

I think that's the heart of the rape culture assertion though. It's an attack on the sexism we condone, or at least don't work too hard to stop. And it rejects the most simple definition of rape as something committed by a raging violent psychopath. Rape is something that average, normal people can commit.

 

I believe that is the intent. To make people understand that rape is something that they might be capable of without intending to do so as a psychologically deranged individual.

[That Aud Smell]

To make people understand that rape is something that they might be capable of without intending to do so as a psychologically deranged individual.

 

I think it's far more comfortable and tidy to say, as some have, that rape (or some other sexual assault) is an aberrant and abhorrent act committed by a tiny minority of bad men.

[Fidelio]

Oh, okay. Gotcha now. 

 

So, a bleeding-heart PC cop run amok is as dangerous as someone who acts on dark temptations despite knowing those acts are wrong.

 

Um, no.

 

 Degrading an abstract idea through semantical analysis will always result in your favor because you decide the terms and manipulate the circumstances for your favor. All I'm saying is its a dangerous way of thinking. 

 

But yes actually, a cop who abuses his power and does not act in accordance to the rules of objectivity ... aka becomes a champion of his own causes, and begins to (ab)use his powers of authority to unlawfully exert his will.. then yes, he is as dangerous, in a sense, as someone who acts on dark temptations despite knowing the acts are wrong (vague), because both of these fictitious characters arcs lead to abuse and misdeeds and both pose a threat to the well being society/ proper functioning of their surrounding community.. whether you have a bias towards the cop because you envision him to be the superior entity before examining the facts of the situation is your prerogative.. but its a fundamentally flawed one.. purely from the perspective of reason that is. 

[darksabre]

I think it's far more comfortable and tidy to say, as some have, that rape (or some other sexual assault) is an aberrant and abhorrent act committed by a tiny minority of bad men.

 

Right. That is what people believe happens. But we know that a large number of rape cases occur with people who know each other, with people who wouldn't consider the other person a "bad man", or deranged, or a threat. You could be married to your rapist for years and still believe they are a good person afterwards. It happens. 

 

Rape is something normal people are capable of committing. And something that normal people are capable of being victims of. 

[That Aud Smell]

 Degrading an abstract idea through semantical analysis will always result in your favor because you decide the terms and manipulate the circumstances for your favor. All I'm saying is its a dangerous way of thinking. 

 

But yes actually, a cop who abuses his power and does not act in accordance to the rules of objectivity ... aka becomes a champion of his own causes, and begins to (ab)use his powers of authority to unlawfully exert his will.. then yes, he is as dangerous, in a sense, as someone who acts on dark temptations despite knowing the acts are wrong (vague), because both of these fictitious characters arcs lead to abuse and misdeeds and both pose a threat to the well being society/ proper functioning of their surrounding community.. whether you have a bias towards the cop because you envision him to be the superior entity before examining the facts of the situation is your prerogative.. but its a fundamentally flawed one.. purely from the perspective of reason that is. 

 

My head hurts.

 

To be clear: I was referring to a "PC cop" as a metaphor, not an actual cop. I meant the "PC police," I guess. That person who allows highly sensitized emotional impulses to inform all judgments and pursuant policies, in your model.

 

My point is, I'll take a dozen Rebecca Nagels (as arch a feminist I could think of) in my neighborhood before I'd take one average Joe dad who has slowly allowed his darker angels to guide his choices (and is, as a result, skimming from the parish's collection baskets and occasionally beating the crap out of his two sons).

[LGR4GM]

Several studies show that sex education would do a lot towards preventing future rape in the US.

[Fidelio]

 Degrading an abstract idea through semantical analysis will always result in your favor because you decide the terms and manipulate the circumstances for your favor. All I'm saying is its a dangerous way of thinking. 

 

But yes actually, a cop who abuses his power and does not act in accordance to the rules of objectivity ... aka becomes a champion of his own causes, and begins to (ab)use his powers of authority to unlawfully exert his will.. then yes, he is as dangerous, in a sense, as someone who acts on dark temptations despite knowing the acts are wrong (vague), because both of these fictitious characters arcs lead to abuse and misdeeds and both pose a threat to the well being society/ proper functioning of their surrounding community.. whether you have a bias towards the cop because you envision him to be the superior entity before examining the facts of the situation is your prerogative.. but its a fundamentally flawed one.. purely from the perspective of reason that is. 

 

Im saying this because we all have this tendency as emotional beings and I believe it is helpful... even essential.. for the betterment of of our society, for us to practice  withholding decisive judgement until the entirety of any story has unfolded (In Life, Logic, Math, Physics). After all, it is literally what humans as an entire species have been attempting to reconcile since the renaissance, and it is the stuff that destroys our capacity to expand ourselves beyond the confines of our current understanding (or limitations in the case of the more physical sciences).   

My head hurts.

 

To be clear: I was referring to a "PC cop" as a metaphor, not an actual cop. I meant the "PC police," I guess. That person who allows highly sensitized emotional impulses to inform all judgments and pursuant policies, in your model.

 

My point is, I'll take a dozen Rebecca Nagels (as arch a feminist I could think of) in my neighborhood before I'd take one average Joe dad who has slowly allowed his darker angels to guide his choices (and is, as a result, skimming from the parish's collection baskets and occasionally beating the crap out of his two sons).

 

Haha..

Yea practically speaking I would take the Nagles too.

[nfreeman]

I think you unduly discount widely distributed societal attitudes (ones neither you nor I share).

 

Your hypothetical is hyperbole, and doesn't advance the discussion.

 

I think the fact that approximately 18 percent of American women will be a victim of a sex crime in their lifetimes makes the crime far too common, and much too embedded in some cultural mores.

 

Pervasive and normalized? Maybe strong words. For America. In other parts of the world, especially in developing nations? Such terms are quite apt.

 

It's a Wiki definition, as another poster noted. No need for me to defend it, unduly.

 

It bothers me, though, that people here (two mods no less) have taken broad swipes at feminism and women's studies in the context of this discussion, of all places. I recognize that there are pockets of both movements that are extreme or absurd. But to discount them as has been done here is out of line, especially given the context.

 

I have and will continue to denigrate any field of "study" that utilizes a loaded term like "rape culture" and promotes a narrative to the effect that rape is "pervasive and normalized."  I believe that theory to be ridiculous on its face and politically motivated.

 

I agree with you that rape is much more pervasive and normalized in some other countries.  Of course, the PC police that promote the rape culture myth in the US are the same ones who would be loathe to criticize the social and political mores of those same rape-ridden countries, but that's another conversation.

 

 

 

This is all a bit rich coming from the guy who thinks woken falsely accusing men of rape on college campuses is an epidemic .

 

The epidemic is not one of false accusations.  It is one of insanely biased and ill-conceived procedures being adopted on college campuses to adjudicate rape accusations.

 

 

 If it exists, there is porn of it, guaranteed. That doesn't mean there's an epidemic/culture of it. 

We don't have a furry culture, either.  Or a transvestite culture.  Or a lesbian culture or a gay male culture.  There's plenty of that porn around, too.  I'll bet there's more of that than rape porn.

 

No question that rape is a serious crime and that women are especially vulnerable to it.  No question that there is a significant percentage of women who will experience some form of unwelcome touching and a smaller, but more unfortunate, percentage who will experience rape.

 

When I think of a "rape culture," I think of places where it is openly tolerated.  That's not the US.

 

Beat me to it.  100% correct.

 

 

You basically hit the nail on the head: the problem with talking about rape culture is that it's referred to as rape culture. People take it to mean something far more explicit, acceptable and wide-ranging than what it actually means. This in turn results in a very harsh reaction, and often times, complete rejection of the arguments contained within on their face. We need a better phrase.

 

The wikipedia entry (which I know to you academic types is an unimpeachable authority -- just kidding!) used the "pervasive and normalized" phrase.  That is what I objected to. 

 

FWIW, I'd be interested to know whether those who believe in the "rape culture" theory think it means something other than "pervasive and normalized."

 

 

I think it's far more comfortable and tidy to say, as some have, that rape (or some other sexual assault) is an aberrant and abhorrent act committed by a tiny minority of bad men.

 

Do you not believe this to be the case?

[Fidelio]

 

Sorry if you covered this already, but what do you think about the cop-driver and the Facebook war?

[LGR4GM]

I have and will continue to denigrate any field of "study" that utilizes a loaded term like "rape culture" and promotes a narrative to the effect that rape is "pervasive and normalized."  I believe that theory to be ridiculous on its face and politically motivated.

 

FWIW, I'd be interested to know whether those who believe in the "rape culture" theory think it means something other than "pervasive and normalized."

 

 

Do you not believe this to be the case?

Interestingly that entry which you are all up in arms over, goes on to say that "there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and as to whether any given societies meet the criteria to be considered a rape culture. Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these."

 

So while we could argue that an actual rape culture does not exist and that the term is incorrect we also cannot but help to notice that the factors leading to the possibility of such a culture have all manifested in this very thread.  Victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing, and even some denial over the amount it occurs, all of these have been brought up.  That link starts off with a strongly worded definition and then proceeds to discuss the term.  Clearly the US does not fit the term 100% by the definition but it does fit several of the factors that go into creating that term. 

 

You can discount feminism because you disagree, that is your business, but it seems that is another term that is not understood.

 

I do not believe sexual assault is "committed by a tiny minority of bad men" and that it is more likely committed by misguided men with the opportunity.  Some men are horrible human beings but some are just your average ass who thinks he is entitled. Again sexual education would help the situation immensely.

Edited August 18, 2015 by LGR4GM

[That Aud Smell]

I have and will continue to denigrate any field of "study" that utilizes a loaded term like "rape culture" and promotes a narrative to the effect that rape is "pervasive and normalized."  I believe that theory to be ridiculous on its face and politically motivated.

 

Oy. That first set of air quotes.

 

But I see where you're coming from. I accept that we disagree on a fairly fundamental level when it comes to stuff like this.

 

Do you not believe this to be the case?

 

I do not. I suspect we would have differing definitions and understandings of where and when (and how often) such acts might occur.

 

True story, and just one example of what I think are many: There's a guy I used to skate with. He's a little older than me. Good guy. Smart guy. Higher-degree having sort of guy. Good Dad. Devoted Husband, albeit a little old school in the way he interacted with his high school sweetheart. I learned from my wife that their marriage almost (*almost*) fell apart because they had an incident (actually more than one) of what the wife considered rape within their marriage. Word was the guy was devastated by her accusations, once she came forward with them. Not only devastated, but confused. Bewildered even. I saw that family at church earlier this summer. All 5 of them. God bless them all.

 

Sorry if you covered this already, but what do you think about the cop-driver and the Facebook war?

 

Beyond bizarre. And frickin' funny. The comments from those goading Cambria were the best.

Edited August 18, 2015 by That Aud Smell

[WildCard]

You're arguing a small minority based on direct search results from one site. 

 

But what you fail to understand is that just because something isn't classified as "rape porn" or something equally violent, or that it isn't directly searched for, doesn't mean it doesn't contain elements that drive psychological tendencies in the sexual desire of men towards violence and force. 

 

You have to see to understand. When some of the most popular pornography series are deliberate portrayals of "victimization of the innocent" those things feed the "rape culture" that you deny exists. 

 

We've been painting a picture since the Girls Gone Wild days that women and girls want to be exploited. That they want to be taken advantage of. That they want to be used. There's no way that this mentality doesn't influence young men, especially in a world where these ideas are accessed with greater ease than ever before. 

 

 

First off, it is the second largest global provider of online porn as of 2012, and had 18.5 billion views or 123 views/capita in 2014. It is far from a small minority of America's porn consumers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2127201/Porn-site-Xvideos-worlds-biggest-4bn-hits-month-30-web-traffic-porn.html

 

Secondly, what you're arguing is that all porn is violent domination, and that is plainly false. The reason pornhub has statistics based on search views, as I've illustrated previously. 

 

How does being on GGW indicate they're exploited? They sign legal forms to do that, they are far from exploited. Is it because they're filmed and shown to strangers? What, you've never been to a party where a girl flashes the crowd because she's dared? It seems to me that you want to believe women aren't capable of autonomy and need to be constantly looked after for.

Edited August 18, 2015 by WildCard

[darksabre]

First off, it is the second largest global provider of online porn as of 2012, and had 18.5 billion views or 123 views/capita in 2014. It is far from a small minority of America's porn consumers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2127201/Porn-site-Xvideos-worlds-biggest-4bn-hits-month-30-web-traffic-porn.html

 

Secondly, what you're arguing is that all porn is violent domination, and that is plainly false. The reason pornhub has statistics based on search views, as I've illustrated previously. 

 

How does being on GGW indicate their exploited? They sign legal forms to do that, they are far from exploited. Is it because they're filmed and shown to strangers? What, you've never been to a party where a girl flashes the crowd because she's dared? It seems to me that you want to believe women aren't capable of autonomy and need to be constantly looked after for.

 

Where did I say this?