JJFIVEOH Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I'm sorry. I need to point out that Mitchell and Flynn went to the more talented team. Shouldn't their numbers improve being surrounded with more talent? I feel it's more of an indication that Nolan didn't use the talent correctly while Flynn and Mitchel are what they always are. Head down grinders that Nolan loved.(I'm certain he still loves them) I need to point out that you're basing this on 4 games. How can you possibly determine what Nolan can or can't do based on how two players have performed in 4 games with a new team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogre Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Sample size and teammates' skill level. Apples vs. steak. None of that takes into consideration their linemates' skill level. Nail meet Head. That's the point I feel people are trying to make. Mitchell ONLY scored 78/1000 more ppg with 2:35 more toi WHILE playing on higher lines with better talent and getting more pp time than Hogdson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Speaking strictly for myself, I started the season a Nolan fan, but as it has gone along, I started to see more and more things that concerned me until I recently reached the conclusion he should be replaced. As to your latter point on nothing else to talk about, there is probably a lot of truth to that. We're just playing out the string with a skeleton roster, and I am tired of talking about the tank. Fair enough. I just think he's been extremely limited all year. I can't wait for this nonsense to be over with, regardless of who is behind the bench. This crap has divided us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogre Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I need to point out that you're basing this on 4 games. How can you possibly determine what Nolan can or can't do based on how two players have performed in 4 games with a new team? How can Nolan possibly determine what Grigorenko can do based his limited exposure? Apples vs. steaks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Nail meet Head. That's the point I feel people are trying to make. Mitchell ONLY scored 78/1000 more ppg with 2:35 more toi WHILE playing on higher lines with better talent and getting more pp time than Hogdson. No he didn't. Hodgson was on the 1/2 lines the first 25-30 games of the season. Mitchell was rarely on the top lines. If anything Hodgson was given his opportunities surrounded by more talented forwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogre Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Grigs has loads of effort in rochester(and any roads game for that matter). Very good rookie numbers at the ahl level. Yet one game with Nolan and he is a slacker? C'mon. there's trying to enlighten people and there is just trying to win a disagreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 How can Nolan possibly determine what Grigorenko can do based his limited exposure? Apples vs. steaks? What does that have to do with Flynn and Mitchell? Nolan is a head coach, his sole responsibility is to win. He thought Grigorenko was being lazy and going through the motions. Considering he is more of a one dimensional player, if he's not putting in an effort to score, he has no use on the ice. They have the option to send him back down to Rochester to learn. Others don't have that option without getting waived. Grigs has loads of effort in rochester(and any roads game for that matter). Very good rookie numbers at the ahl level. Yet one game with Nolan and he is a slacker? C'mon. there's trying to enlighten people and there is just trying to win a disagreement. It's not based on one game, come on man............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogre Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) No he didn't. Hodgson was on the 1/2 lines the first 25-30 games of the season. Mitchell was rarely on the top lines. If anything Hodgson was given his opportunities surrounded by more talented forwards. Only way to tell for sure is watch the stats next year. I'm guessing Michtell and Flynn have the same or lower numbers. Myers and the talent gang improve. If Nolan is still here grinders will seem like heroes as they put up numbers similar to talent. That's only because Nolan botches talent! Give guys like Hogdson and Grigs a coach who coaches talent and they will flourish too. You can see that with Grigs now. Watch some ahl hockey. He is above most of the talent he plays against(and with). I built my own backyard rink one bucket at a time just like Nolan did. I've loved and played hockey for 42 years. I've played a loooooot of hockey. I'm smart enough to know that head down grinding isn't the only way to play the game. Talent SHOULD be rewarded. Grinders do realize what they are and feel guilty when they get more toi than that other guy they know shines like a star. It affects the locker room and moral. For everyone. Could you blame Grig for a lack of effort when you aren't allowed to make plays that you see develop that your coach is too blind to see? "Head down and grind? But I just say a beautiful chance to get one in the net!" Hockey is x and o. Nolan is not. Edited March 11, 2015 by iTInSn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I wonder if it's "well, now that we've shipped half the team team out, Nolan has to give Hodgson a shot, right?" "He's still on the fourth line? WTF." I haven't watched, but I can't believe Mitchell and Flynn are playing on the 2/3 lines on MTL. Definitely. All I've been really looking forward to post-deadline was seeing what Pysyk Grigorenko, Larsson and McCabe and to a lesser extent Hodgson and foligno were going to do with their increased opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Only way to tell for sure is watch the stats next year. I'm guessing Michtell and Flynn have the same or lower numbers. Myers and the talent gang improve. If Nolan is still here grinders will seem like heroes as they put up numbers similar to talent. That's only because Nolan botches talent! Give guys like Hogdson and Grigs a coach who coaches talent and they will flourish too. You can see that with Grigs now. Watch some ahl hockey. He is above most of the talent he plays against(and with). Probably, because they're playing on a team with talent. Guys like Mitchell and Flynn are 3/4 line guys on most any other team in the league. When you come up with these numbers you really need to take into account the countless other factors that seem to be overlooked. Their numbers will drop, just like Ott's did when he went to the Blues. If Flynn and Mitchell were on the Sabres in 2 years, their numbers would be significantly lower also, even with Nolan as coach. This isn't the AHL, this is the NHL. Just ask Jacob Markstrom, Luke Adam and Mark Mancari. Edited March 11, 2015 by JJFIVEOH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogre Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Probably, because they're playing on a team with talent. Guys like Mitchell and Flynn are 3/4 line guys on most any other team in the league. When you come up with these numbers you really need to take into account the countless other factors that seem to be overlooked. Their numbers will drop, just like Ott's did when he went to the Blues. If Flynn and Mitchell were on the Sabres in 2 years, their numbers would be significantly lower also, even with Nolan as coach. This isn't the AHL, this is the NHL. Just ask Jacob Markstrom, Luke Adam and Mark Mancari. The AHL and NHL are far closer to each other in talent level than you are giving the league credit for. You should really watch some AHL hockey. Sabres beat Vancouver with a AHL heavy squad. Guys like Varrone and Dalpe put on as good a show as Mitchell/Flynn. It's easy to look down at a league that you don't follow but truth is there are lots of AHL guys playing in the NHL every game. Grigerinko will play at the NHL level one day. The kids only 20. Watch him play for the Amerks before you judge. I'll put this whole Nolan thing aside. Grigs is good/humble kid that will do good things for some NHL squad one day. You'll see. I would, in all sincerity, give you my two season tickets to any one Amerks game if you would want to go. Just to see for yourself. Edited March 11, 2015 by iTInSn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 The AHL and NHL are far closer to each other in talent level than you are giving the league credit for. You should really watch some AHL hockey. Sabres beat Vancouver with a AHL heavy squad. Guys like Varrone and Dalpe put on as good a show as Mitchell/Flynn. It's easy to look down at a league that you don't follow but truth is there are lots of AHL guys playing in the NHL every game. Grigerinko will play at the NHL level one day. The kids only 20. Watch him play for the Amerks before you judge. I'll put this whole Nolan thing aside. Grigs is good/humble kid that will do good things for some NHL squad one day. You'll see. Who said I'm looking down on it? Who said I don't follow it? Why are you putting words in my mouth? I said Nolan didn't like his effort. Whether he gives effort in the AHL is besides the point because the AHL isn't the end game. I never said he wouldn't be in the NHL, I never said he couldn't turn things around. Effort in the AHL doesn't translate into top NHL minutes unless you earn it. I simply said Nolan hasn't liked his effort and I agreed. Sure an AHL heavy club beat the Canucks, guess what, that same Canucks team lost to Glendale the same week. There are exceptions, but an AHL heavy team winning games is hardly the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I would like to state I disagree with Nolan's assessment of Grigorenko's NHL effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
respk Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 At times Grigs looks lost or indecisive. He just looks like he doesn't know what to do next. The game the other night I thought was a good example. The first 2 shifts he looked terrible. As the game went on, and he became more comfortable, he looked somewhat better. Maybe he just needs a few games to get comfortable in his role? If I remember correctly, he started kind of slow in Rochester but as he became more familiar with his linemates and the team he became better. At 6-2, 215 and that much natural ability I hope they don't give up on him just yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 At times Grigs looks lost or indecisive. He just looks like he doesn't know what to do next. The game the other night I thought was a good example. The first 2 shifts he looked terrible. As the game went on, and he became more comfortable, he looked somewhat better. Maybe he just needs a few games to get comfortable in his role? If I remember correctly, he started kind of slow in Rochester but as he became more familiar with his linemates and the team he became better. At 6-2, 215 and that much natural ability I hope they don't give up on him just yet. No way, the kid can't jump into an NHL game and produce on the first shift? trade him for a conditional seventh. :) To me, the way to handle this as a coach is Grigs (and Hodgson, for that matter) start the game on the second line, and stay there until the end of the first period. If they're absolutely terrible, move them down. If they're OK, they buy another period. They do NOT get sent to the fourth line after the first bad shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I would like to state I disagree with Nolan's assessment of Grigorenko's NHL effort. Me to :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 But they do. This is what I mean with confusing effort with results and by being one-dimensional. Exhibits A, B, C and D: Moulson, Flynn, Meszaros and Mitchell. You "earn" icetime with Teddy by being a veteran, and/or by skating hard in straight lines. It doesn't seem to matter how effective you are, as long as you fit the profile. And if you don't fit Teddy's profile, it doesn't matter how effective you are at other things, you're gonna sit. What is Grigorenko "effective" at? I won't argue against that there are many veterans that should be sitting on a more regular basis. I will argue that Grigorenko hasn't shown anything during his opportunities that he should be in the lineup or take ice time away from the veterans. I'll go as far as saying that if Grigorenko wasn't a highly touted 1st round he wouldn't have gotten the opportunities he has. As far as Nolan is concerned, we are getting what we thought we were getting when he signed. He was a guy desperate to get back into the NHL fully aware that his a place holder. A fan favorite to appease the massed during the lien years. He's not here to develop the young talent, that's what the assistant coaches are for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny DangerFace Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Well let's see how fast he gets hired since he is so well respected (once he gets fired shortly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Well let's see how fast he gets hired since he is so well respected (once he gets fired shortly) Don't underestimate the power of the tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 He's not here to develop the young talent, that's what the assistant coaches are for. Hmmm. Interesting take. And probably spot-on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtDart Posted March 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Only way to tell for sure is watch the stats next year. I'm guessing Michtell and Flynn have the same or lower numbers. Myers and the talent gang improve. If Nolan is still here grinders will seem like heroes as they put up numbers similar to talent. That's only because Nolan botches talent! Give guys like Hogdson and Grigs a coach who coaches talent and they will flourish too. You can see that with Grigs now. Watch some ahl hockey. He is above most of the talent he plays against(and with). I built my own backyard rink one bucket at a time just like Nolan did. I've loved and played hockey for 42 years. I've played a loooooot of hockey. I'm smart enough to know that head down grinding isn't the only way to play the game. Talent SHOULD be rewarded. Grinders do realize what they are and feel guilty when they get more toi than that other guy they know shines like a star. It affects the locker room and moral. For everyone. Could you blame Grig for a lack of effort when you aren't allowed to make plays that you see develop that your coach is too blind to see? "Head down and grind? But I just say a beautiful chance to get one in the net!" Hockey is x and o. Nolan is not. Very accurate post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 He's not here to develop the young talent, that's what the assistant coaches are for. This is a novel position. Nolan isn't responsible for the development of this roster? He hired the coaches, didn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Mikhail Grigorenko discusses Nolan's comments and his future going forward. http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/hockeyozone/2015/03/12/grigorenko-wants-to-be-better/70212330/ "Obviously it wasn't my best game," Grigorenko said, "but I don't think it was that bad. I knew I was given a good opportunity playing on the second line. I just think I was over-thinking and put too much pressure on myself. I mishandled the puck a couple times but it wasn't a lack of effort." I asked him if he wonders what the future holds. His instant reply: "Tomorrow we play Hamilton. That's the future." Edited March 12, 2015 by Ligerovich 4GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Mikhail Grigorenko discusses Nolan's comments and his future going forward. http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/hockeyozone/2015/03/12/grigorenko-wants-to-be-better/70212330/ Sounds Larssonesque Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trettioåtta Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Mikhail Grigorenko discusses Nolan's comments and his future going forward. http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/hockeyozone/2015/03/12/grigorenko-wants-to-be-better/70212330/ Says it all really. Grigo knows he will be punished and knows it wasn't because he didn't try. Young guys will screw up now and again. What is sad is that the opportunity to play on the second line of this time was such a treat for our second best forward prospect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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