Former Sabre Steve Montador Dead at 35

[Kruppstahl]

I have no data to support this, but my subjective observation is that as fighting has been reduced in the game over the last 20 years or so, the cheap shots, the hits from the behind, the stick work, and the head hunting has gone through the roof.

 

Were there cheap shots in the old days?  Sure, but not like now.  I really don't remember the hits from behind into the boards.  

 

I very much hope whoever coaches the Sabres next is smart enough to keep some muscle in the lineup to help protect our young budding stars.  We don't necessarily need a John Scott type (his type is fading out of the league anyway) but I definitely want a Cody McCormick type or tougher in the lineup.  Someone more heavyweight than Foligno (and Foligno knows how to throw 'em).

 

It's simple.  Most people don't like to get the snot beaten out of them.  If you know I'm going to beat the snot out of you when you do it, you probably aren't going to screw around with my budding young superstar teammate who is 19 or 20 years old.

 

Aside from all that, I love fighting in hockey and hope it makes a strong comeback, though this is highly unlikely.

 

I love end to end action, great shots, great passes, great saves as much as the next guy.  But as fighting/tough play has been removed from the game, the game has become quite boring.  For me.  On most nights.  In the regular season mostly.

[Randall Flagg]

I think players are faster and stronger and have giant shoulder pads that let them hurt people and that's why there are so many cheap shots and injuries. Fighting is silly and I'm glad it's dying.

[darksabre]

I think players are faster and stronger and have giant shoulder pads that let them hurt people and that's why there are so many cheap shots and injuries. Fighting is silly and I'm glad it's dying.

Pretty much this.

[LastPommerFan]

I have no data to support this, but my subjective observation is that as fighting has been reduced in the game over the last 20 years or so, the cheap shots, the hits from the behind, the stick work, and the head hunting has gone through the roof.

 

Were there cheap shots in the old days?  Sure, but not like now.  I really don't remember the hits from behind into the boards.  

 

I very much hope whoever coaches the Sabres next is smart enough to keep some muscle in the lineup to help protect our young budding stars.  We don't necessarily need a John Scott type (his type is fading out of the league anyway) but I definitely want a Cody McCormick type or tougher in the lineup.  Someone more heavyweight than Foligno (and Foligno knows how to throw 'em).

 

It's simple.  Most people don't like to get the snot beaten out of them.  If you know I'm going to beat the snot out of you when you do it, you probably aren't going to screw around with my budding young superstar teammate who is 19 or 20 years old.

 

Aside from all that, I love fighting in hockey and hope it makes a strong comeback, though this is highly unlikely.

 

I love end to end action, great shots, great passes, great saves as much as the next guy.  But as fighting/tough play has been removed from the game, the game has become quite boring.  For me.  On most nights.  In the regular season mostly.

 

It appears that it is the guys who caught punches with their heads for a living that have the highest rates of CTE.

[Weave]

I don't share the opinion that cheap shots and head hunting has increased.  It seems to me that it is pretty much the same now as it has been for the entire time I've watched hockey.  Guys like Cooke were preceeded by guys like Lemieux, Hunter, Samuelsson, Linesman.  Hell, Pavel Bure liked to use his elbow.  And how about that cheapshot Michael Peca?

 

I like fighting in hockey, although the revelations regarding concussions has me in a quandry about celebrating them, but I don't believe the idea that fighting reduces cheap shots.  Hell, some of the biggest cheap shot artists in the league were noted and regarded fighters.

[Doohickie]

I have no data to support this, but my subjective observation is that as fighting has been reduced in the game over the last 20 years or so, the cheap shots, the hits from the behind, the stick work, and the head hunting has gone through the roof.

 

Were there cheap shots in the old days? Sure, but not like now. I really don't remember the hits from behind into the boards.

I think the definition of a cheap shot has changed. When Campbell reset Umberger's total neural system with an open ice check, it was lauded as a great check. In today's NHL they probably say he targeted the head and left his feet, therefore he'd be suspended.  

 

I very much hope whoever coaches the Sabres next is smart enough to keep some muscle in the lineup to help protect our young budding stars.  We don't necessarily need a John Scott type (his type is fading out of the league anyway) but I definitely want a Cody McCormick type or tougher in the lineup.  Someone more heavyweight than Foligno (and Foligno knows how to throw 'em).

 

It's simple.  Most people don't like to get the snot beaten out of them.  If you know I'm going to beat the snot out of you when you do it, you probably aren't going to screw around with my budding young superstar teammate who is 19 or 20 years old.

 

Aside from all that, I love fighting in hockey and hope it makes a strong comeback, though this is highly unlikely.

 

I love end to end action, great shots, great passes, great saves as much as the next guy.  But as fighting/tough play has been removed from the game, the game has become quite boring.  For me.  On most nights.  In the regular season mostly.

I think the other factor is wearing helmets. Before the league mandated helmet use, there was a little more of an unwritten code about not targeting the head and not checking from behind. Now that they are "protected" with helmets and you don't actually see the player's head, there's more of a tendency, I think, to not worry as much about injuring the other guy.

[josie]

Not Steve, but this whole situation of the lawsuit and CTE reminds me- if you haven't, I highly recommend picking up the book about Derek Boogaard- Boy On Ice. It's a tough read. Depressing. I had to take a break from it. He has a lot of life parallels to Clint Malarchuk (whose autobiography I also highly recommend). I don't know about Montador- I admit I don't know as much about him. But it gives an interesting view into the life/deterioration of man dealing with severe head injuries from fighting/hits. 

[Kruppstahl]

It appears that it is the guys who caught punches with their heads for a living that have the highest rates of CTE.

Not necessarily.  Hockey fighting isn't boxing, and very few NHL players over the years have had what boxing people would consider true punching power.

 

Rob Ray knocked out a number of players.  That was exceptional.  Brad May had a good punch, ditto Joey Kocur.  There haven't been too many guys like that.

 

Yes, quantity of fights can trump quality of punching power, but the "head shots" that scare me aren't the ones received via a punch in a fight.

 

It's the callous lack of regard head hunting hits and hits from behind into the boards where a guy is going to get killed some day.

 

A punch can never match the energy transfer of a head hunting hit in open ice anyway.  Not even close.

[Kruppstahl]

Not Steve, but this whole situation of the lawsuit and CTE reminds me- if you haven't, I highly recommend picking up the book about Derek Boogaard- Boy On Ice. It's a tough read. Depressing. I had to take a break from it. He has a lot of life parallels to Clint Malarchuk (whose autobiography I also highly recommend). I don't know about Montador- I admit I don't know as much about him. But it gives an interesting view into the life/deterioration of man dealing with severe head injuries from fighting/hits. 

Or does it give a history of a guy with serious depression issues?

 

Malarchuk is a great guy and he has dealt with a lot of depression through his life, for reasons having not much to do with head hits in hockey, or fighting in hockey.

 

Rob Ray remains one of the top penalty minute/fighting NHL players of all time, but is a rather cheerful guy if you listen to him on WGR 550.

 

Lastly, most guys who become enforcers in the NHL know 100% what they are getting into, and have known for a long time.

 

I love Rob Ray.  He took what God gave him (modest IQ, little to no formal education, great work ethic, strong body, good but not great hockey skills) and converted it into millions of dollars, regional celebrity status, and a blossoming business empire fueled by his celebrity.

 

All because he knew the odds and decided the life he has now was going to be better than working the counter at Canadian Tire in Stirling. 

 

That's his prerogative.  It is condescending to suggest a tough guy in hockey doesn't know what he's getting into.  Of course he does, and he has a right to do what he wants.

 

Ditto for boxers, coal miners, the guys who hook up F-18s to catapults on aircraft carriers, and all other potentially highly dangerous professions.

 

Hell, how about every guy who has ever played in the NFL?  ALL of those guys end up with a body that is SHOT by the time they get into their 40s.  A lot of them are dead in their 50s.

 

They do it because they chose to.  And your sports fan money fuels the system.

 

Same in hockey.  If 2 guys decide they want to fight, let them fight.  I hope this doesn't leave the game.

I think the definition of a cheap shot has changed. When Campbell reset Umberger's total neural system with an open ice check, it was lauded as a great check. In today's NHL they probably say he targeted the head and left his feet, therefore he'd be suspended.  

 

 

I think the other factor is wearing helmets. Before the league mandated helmet use, there was a little more of an unwritten code about not targeting the head and not checking from behind. Now that they are "protected" with helmets and you don't actually see the player's head, there's more of a tendency, I think, to not worry as much about injuring the other guy.

I hear what you are saying regarding the Campbell/Umberger hit...but I think that was a clean hit then and a clean hit now.  How the league would react to it now would be interesting to see.  We don't see too many hits like that anymore.  

 

How about Scott Stevens?  He made a career out of killing people with clean open ice hits (mostly).

 

Currently, Kronwall is similar.  It's harder to find guys nowadays who go out of their way to cut people in half.  Thank God we still have a few left.

I mean, we can turn the NHL into a fast moving game of chess if we want.  But I'm not going to watch that.

 

I'd rather just watch a video of Kasparov vs. Topalov from 1999.  

 

Take the hockey out of hockey and you are left with...not much.

 

The NFL is currently the most successful piece of sports entertainment in the history of sports entertainment.

 

The violence/speed of the game is central to that.  

 

Turn it into flag football but keep the unbelievable speed and athleticism on display and watch the ratings plummet.

I don't share the opinion that cheap shots and head hunting has increased.  It seems to me that it is pretty much the same now as it has been for the entire time I've watched hockey.  Guys like Cooke were preceeded by guys like Lemieux, Hunter, Samuelsson, Linesman.  Hell, Pavel Bure liked to use his elbow.  And how about that cheapshot Michael Peca?

 

I like fighting in hockey, although the revelations regarding concussions has me in a quandry about celebrating them, but I don't believe the idea that fighting reduces cheap shots.  Hell, some of the biggest cheap shot artists in the league were noted and regarded fighters.

You have to define "cheap shot."

 

What the Rat did is not the same as the prevalent boarding from behind now.

 

If the Rat had nailed John Tucker into the boards in the mid '80s, he would know that Steve Dykstra would try to kill him.  That's why the Rat didn't do that sort of thing.  He cheap shotted his butt off in more cunning, subtle ways (LOL).  

 

It is true there have always been players like Ulf who played on the edge and as I said earlier, cheap shots have always been around.  But I assert they were never around as prevalently as they are now.

 

Wayne Gretzky in his prime centered a line with Jari Kurri and DAVE SEMENKO for a reason.

 

As great as the Great One was, he wouldn't have been quite as Great without all that ridiculous working room Dave Semenko bought him.

[Doohickie]

Rob Ray remains one of the top penalty minute/fighting NHL players of all time, but is a rather cheerful guy if you listen to him on WGR 550.

Robin Williams was quite jovial too until he gave in to depression.

cheap shots have always been around.  But I assert they were never around as prevalently as they are now.

I think they appear to be more prevalent now because of more replays during game broadcasts from more angles, more views of them after the fact on the internet, and rule changes that made head shots and hitting from behind illegal and with greater punishments. I don't think it's really changed all that much, but with the knowledge of the aftermath of concussions these formerly clean hits are no longer tolerated and get a lot of negative coverage. That's why they appear to be more common.

[Kruppstahl]

Robin Williams was quite jovial too until he gave in to depression.

 

I think they appear to be more prevalent now because of more replays during game broadcasts from more angles, more views of them after the fact on the internet, and rule changes that made head shots and hitting from behind illegal and with greater punishments. I don't think it's really changed all that much, but with the knowledge of the aftermath of concussions these formerly clean hits are no longer tolerated and get a lot of negative coverage. That's why they appear to be more common.

Well what I meant about Rob Ray is that, if you listen to him every few days through an entire NHL season (he speak very candidly with Schopp and Bulldog on game days) he doesn't sound like a man struggling with depression, but he could be.  I will agree to that.

 

I disagree about the replays.  This business of slamming guys head first into the boards from behind simply did not exist in the game in even the 1980s.  Back then there were 1 or 2 (if not a lot more) guys on every team who would make you pay for crap like that, so crap like that didn't exist, for the most part.

 

There were ALWAYS isolated incidents and cheap shots, for sure!  But a little jabbing spear here or there, a little elbow as a player skates by is not the same thing.

 

And if we are all worried about head shots/concussions in the NHL, take out hitting in general.  My punch (as an NHL enforcer) is not going to hurt you nearly as much as the hit across the middle.

 

Mass x acceleration = force.

 

If you think my ability to accelerate my fist is going to deliver as much force as a 220 lb. man skating full speed into your jaw, you don't understand physics.

 

(I don't mean you specifically, Neuvichs Perchatka.  Just using a figure of speech).

Edited May 14, 2015 by Kruppstahl

[Doohickie]

I know physics.  :flirt:

I will say this though:  One check directed at the head will surely cause damage, but several repeated punches to the head can cause even more damage.  I do, in fact, know physics (as a mechanical engineer) and in shock/vibe tests, the single shock pulse, even at very high g's, typically doesn't cause as much damage as a repeated vibration at lower g's if the vibration is anywhere near a resonant frequency.  So if you (well, not "you", but you know...) take repeated punches to the head and they come in somewhere near the resonant frequency of your brain (in a mechanical sense), you're probably doing more damage than a single check.

[MattPie]

I know physics.  :flirt:

I will say this though:  One check directed at the head will surely cause damage, but several repeated punches to the head can cause even more damage.  I do, in fact, know physics (as a mechanical engineer) and in shock/vibe tests, the single shock pulse, even at very high g's, typically doesn't cause as much damage as a repeated vibration at lower g's if the vibration is anywhere near a resonant frequency.  So if you (well, not "you", but you know...) take repeated punches to the head and they come in somewhere near the resonant frequency of your brain (in a mechanical sense), you're probably doing more damage than a single check.

 

Come on man, bring it: what's a rough estimate of the resonant frequency of the brain?

Well what I meant about Rob Ray is that, if you listen to him every few days through an entire NHL season (he speak very candidly with Schopp and Bulldog on game days) he doesn't sound like a man struggling with depression, but he could be.  I will agree to that.

 

I disagree about the replays.  This business of slamming guys head first into the boards from behind simply did not exist in the game in even the 1980s.  Back then there were 1 or 2 (if not a lot more) guys on every team who would make you pay for crap like that, so crap like that didn't exist, for the most part.

 

There were ALWAYS isolated incidents and cheap shots, for sure!  But a little jabbing spear here or there, a little elbow as a player skates by is not the same thing.

 

And if we are all worried about head shots/concussions in the NHL, take out hitting in general.  My punch (as an NFL enforcer) is not going to hurt you nearly as much as the hit across the middle.

 

Mass x acceleration = force.

 

If you think my ability to accelerate my fist is going to deliver as much force as a 220 lb. man skating full speed into your jaw, you don't understand physics.

 

(I don't mean you specifically, Neuvichs Perchatka.  Just using a figure of speech).

 

Turns out you're right: Scott Stevens didn't start playing until 1991.

[Kruppstahl]

I know physics.  :flirt:

I will say this though:  One check directed at the head will surely cause damage, but several repeated punches to the head can cause even more damage.  I do, in fact, know physics (as a mechanical engineer) and in shock/vibe tests, the single shock pulse, even at very high g's, typically doesn't cause as much damage as a repeated vibration at lower g's if the vibration is anywhere near a resonant frequency.  So if you (well, not "you", but you know...) take repeated punches to the head and they come in somewhere near the resonant frequency of your brain (in a mechanical sense), you're probably doing more damage than a single check.

No doubt repeated smaller hits to the head causes long term damage too.  

 

Well that's cool that you are a mechanical engineer.  I am a gear head with a fetish for all things mechanical.

 

If you ever find yourself in Germany, look up the technical museum in Sinnsheim.

 

I think you'd enjoy yourself there.

[Hoss]

Robin Williams was quite jovial too until he gave in to depression.

Robin Williams didn't kill himself due to depression. Diffuse Lewy body dementia is what ultimately led to his deteriorating mental health and eventual death.

 

(But he was certainly depressed)

Edited May 14, 2015 by Hoss

[PASabreFan]

When did coaches start teaching players to turn their back to the play along the boards in order to draw a boarding penalty, hurtling themselves into the boards, often head-first? We certainly saw it under Lindy Ruff.

[Kruppstahl]

When did coaches start teaching players to turn their back to the play along the boards in order to draw a boarding penalty, hurtling themselves into the boards, often head-first? We certainly saw it under Lindy Ruff.

Not sure this is being coached, but it is another change in the game and it is definitely part of the problem.

My theory is that the new generation of NHL players have learned to do this almost "accidentally" because you can get away with it in a softer game.  Rob Ray talks about this type of thing all the time, and how the new batch of "kids" is nothing like NHL players of Ray's generation.  

 

Which wasn't that long ago!