A funny thing happened on the way to the net....

[waldo]

 

 

I ask again: why would Lindy attempt to murder Tom's career?

 

[/quote

 

This is all opinion...Ruff never wanted him signed is my guess. Darcy was probably backing Ruff up ala Mo and Larry. Not their kind of player. Too aloof. Too expensive. Not physical enough..Too much skill. Who knows what warped reasoning was employed.It has been obvious for a long time that Lindy is not a big fan. He almost bristles when asked questions about him.....On any other team he plays 20+ minutes a game.The puck finds the guy. He is just one of those players. Can you imagine what his numbers would be if Briere stayed or Richards or Ignlia were paired with him. Derek is a good center but he is not a playmaker,not a good match for Toms style and Derek is a shoot first kind of center.Roy will take the low percentage shot while thomas would rather loose the puck on a pass to middle in a real attempt to score vs.shooting . Roy is not a good match for Thomas imo. he needs a guy that knows when and how to give his wingers the puck. Gleason is dead balls on when he made that point. Roy needs his own line, built around his style.

[jad1]

Just to sink this idiotic idea that Lindy Ruff is doling out ice time based solely on who "earns" it....

 

Average ice time per game for Thomas Vanek: 17:31

 

Average ice time per game for Jochen Hecht: 17:12

 

So based on what Ruff has seen this year, and in the past four years, his best guess is that Thomas Vanek deserves 19 more seconds per game on the ice than Jochen Hecht. Nineteen seconds.

 

Well played, Lindy. You have a special eye for hockey talent. <_<

 

EDIT: Here's the link.

 

Hecht has spent a lot of time playing center over the past few seasons, and centers usually do average more ice time than wingers.

 

So, using your link, let's compare Vanek against some of the LWs with the highest ice time for the better teams in the league:

 

Vanek: 17:31

Franzen: 17:33

Kunitz: 18:24

D Sedin: 18:42

Lucic: 16:25

Nash: 18:39

Cammalleri: 18:08

 

So Vanek plays a shift or two less than most of the guys on the list. Not too bad considering all the guys besides Vanek are plus players (Kunitz and Sedin are both +14). Vanek is -11.

 

When compared to the industry, Vanek's ice time isn't far off the norm, especially when you consider that his +/- numbers this season classify him as a defensive liability.

[Robviously]

So, using your link, let's compare Vanek against some of the LWs with the highest ice time for the better teams in the league:

And here's where you sunk your own argument -- other players on "better teams in the league." You see, Vanek doesn't have to share ice time with players on other teams. He has to share ice time with players on *our* terrible roster.

 

The fact that he's getting less ice time than Pominville, and only slightly more ice time than Connolly and Hecht is an embarrassment. He's clearly the best skater on the team. He's one of only TWO offensive bright spots on the team (the other is Ennis) and the only offensive bright spot who isn't a rookie.

 

We should be giving him all the ice time he can handle.

[jad1]

And here's where you sunk your own argument -- other players on "better teams in the league." You see, Vanek doesn't have to share ice time with players on other teams. He has to share ice time with players on *our* terrible roster.

 

The fact that he's getting less ice time than Pominville, and only slightly more ice time than Connolly and Hecht is an embarrassment. He's clearly the best skater on the team. He's one of only TWO offensive bright spots on the team (the other is Ennis) and the only offensive bright spot who isn't a rookie.

 

We should be giving him all the ice time he can handle.

 

He's clearly the best skater on the team? Really? He's barely better than Pomminstein as a skater. He's a winger for a reason.

 

And while he is an offensive bright spot, he's also a defensive liability. He's weak on the boards, terrible on the back check, and lousy in his own zone. He also has disappeared for long stretches in games. A good percentage of his goals come on the PP, which is great for the PP, but doesn't speak as well for his 5 on 5 play. This is why he doesn't get ice time during the PK and when the team is protecting a late lead.

 

And finally, Vanek looks gassed at the end of almost every shift, so how you can you be sure that he's not already being given all the ice time he can handle? It's hard to make the argument to double-shift him when he's hunched over on the bench with the dry heaves after a 40 second PP shift.

[Robviously]

He's clearly the best skater on the team? Really? He's barely better than Pomminstein as a skater. He's a winger for a reason.

SKATER. As in "guy who is not a goalie."

 

And while he is an offensive bright spot, he's also a defensive liability. He's weak on the boards, terrible on the back check, and lousy in his own zone. He also has disappeared for long stretches in games. A good percentage of his goals come on the PP, which is great for the PP, but doesn't speak as well for his 5 on 5 play. This is why he doesn't get ice time during the PK and when the team is protecting a late lead.

Wrong. As PA pointed out, he used to score shorthanded goals on the PK when Ruff put him out there.

 

And if he's such a terrible 5 on 5 player, how did he manage to lead the entire NHL in +/- a few years back? Oh, that's right, he was on a decent team then. Weird how that works.

 

And finally, Vanek looks gassed at the end of almost every shift, so how you can you be sure that he's not already being given all the ice time he can handle? It's hard to make the argument to double-shift him when he's hunched over on the bench with the dry heaves after a 40 second PP shift.

Every NHL player looks tired after a shift. Turns out playing hockey is strenuous. Crazy, I know.

 

This is really your closing argument? That he looks tired to you? Tremendous.

[jad1]

SKATER. As in "guy who is not a goalie."

 

Not sure the point you're trying to make here, but Vanek is not "clearly the best skater on the team," which is the point you tried to make earlier. He's barely in the top 10 skaters on the team.

 

Wrong. As PA pointed out, he used to score shorthanded goals on the PK when Ruff put him out there.

 

Vanek has played 436 regular season games as a Sabre, and over a stretch of about 5 games two and a half seasons ago, managed to score TWO shorthanded goals (the only ones of his entire career). Did he score those goals because he's a hot/cold, streaky player, or did he score them because he's a budding Selke trophy candidate? If you guessed the former, you'd be right.

 

And if he's such a terrible 5 on 5 player, how did he manage to lead the entire NHL in +/- a few years back? Oh, that's right, he was on a decent team then. Weird how that works.

 

Yeah, that is weird. Vanek was a -11 his rookie season. He then exploded his second season playing on the 2nd and 3rd lines, and managed to post a +47. If he maintained even half that total every season since then, he would be considered an elite winger.

 

But when Briere and Drury left his third season, he posted a -5, for a net gain of -52 from one season to the next. Weird how facing the opponent's top checking line knocked him out of that elite winger category, isn't it.

 

In fact, take away that second season, and Vanek is a -21 for his career. Without favorable line matchups, Vanek isn't in the 'elite' winger category, so why should he get elite minutes?

 

 

Every NHL player looks tired after a shift. Turns out playing hockey is strenuous. Crazy, I know.

 

This is really your closing argument? That he looks tired to you? Tremendous.

 

They don't look as tired as Vanek looks. Not every player looks like they are going to puke and then die after a shift. (By the way, Vanek got 20+ minutes of ice time against the Islanders tonight and was a -2).

 

But if that closing argument isn't good enough for you, how about this one: Vanek is a streak player who disappears for long stretches and is not strong enough defensively to warrant minutes on the PK or when his team is defending a lead late in the game. Despite being a defensive liability, his ice time compares favorably with other solid LWs in the league, and for that reason the accusations that Ruff is not giving him enough ice time are false.

 

Despite what we debate here, I do like Vanek. I just see him more of a player that picks his spots than a game-in/game-out difference maker. And for that reason, I believe that Ruff has got it right. Vanek is a 17-18 minute/game winger.

[bunomatic]

Not sure the point you're trying to make here, but Vanek is not "clearly the best skater on the team," which is the point you tried to make earlier. He's barely in the top 10 skaters on the team.

 

 

 

Vanek has played 436 regular season games as a Sabre, and over a stretch of about 5 games two and a half seasons ago, managed to score TWO shorthanded goals (the only ones of his entire career). Did he score those goals because he's a hot/cold, streaky player, or did he score them because he's a budding Selke trophy candidate? If you guessed the former, you'd be right.

 

 

 

Yeah, that is weird. Vanek was a -11 his rookie season. He then exploded his second season playing on the 2nd and 3rd lines, and managed to post a +47. If he maintained even half that total every season since then, he would be considered an elite winger.

 

But when Briere and Drury left his third season, he posted a -5, for a net gain of -52 from one season to the next. Weird how facing the opponent's top checking line knocked him out of that elite winger category, isn't it.

 

In fact, take away that second season, and Vanek is a -21 for his career. Without favorable line matchups, Vanek isn't in the 'elite' winger category, so why should he get elite minutes?

 

 

 

They don't look as tired as Vanek looks. Not every player looks like they are going to puke and then die after a shift. (By the way, Vanek got 20+ minutes of ice time against the Islanders tonight and was a -2).

 

But if that closing argument isn't good enough for you, how about this one: Vanek is a streak player who disappears for long stretches and is not strong enough defensively to warrant minutes on the PK or when his team is defending a lead late in the game. Despite being a defensive liability, his ice time compares favorably with other solid LWs in the league, and for that reason the accusations that Ruff is not giving him enough ice time are false.

 

Despite what we debate here, I do like Vanek. I just see him more of a player that picks his spots than a game-in/game-out difference maker. And for that reason, I believe that Ruff has got it right. Vanek is a 17-18 minute/game winger.

If I could interject , when he says the best skater he's not talking about his skating ability he's stating that he's a hockey player that isn't a goaltender. Forwards and defencemen have sometimes been known to be called skaters.

[jad1]

If I could interject , when he says the best skater he's not talking about his skating ability he's stating that he's a hockey player that isn't a goaltender. Forwards and defencemen have sometimes been known to be called skaters.

 

Thanks for clarifying. I thought he meant skating ability. With Roy and Stafford being injured most of the year, I can see that point, but there are many nights, like tonight, when other players on the team have out-performed Vanek.

[PASabreFan]

Vanek has played 436 regular season games as a Sabre, and over a stretch of about 5 games two and a half seasons ago, managed to score TWO shorthanded goals (the only ones of his entire career). Did he score those goals because he's a hot/cold, streaky player, or did he score them because he's a budding Selke trophy candidate? If you guessed the former, you'd be right.

Was Vanek ever given that opportunity before or since? Lindy, by the way, once saw a budding Selke candidate in Vanek.

 

Weird how facing the opponent's top checking line knocked him out of that elite winger category, isn't it.

Vanek scored 76 goals the first two seasons Post-Captains. With suppressed ice time and missing nine games in 08-09 when he was just starting to warm up. In this era and in this system, that's pretty elite winger play.

 

They don't look as tired as Vanek looks. Not every player looks like they are going to puke and then die after a shift. (By the way, Vanek got 20+ minutes of ice time against the Islanders tonight and was a -2).

Maybe he leaves it all on the ice. The first time Zack Kassian's chest is heaving after a good shift, you'll be happier. Nick Mendola is probably right.

 

Anyway, good points on both sides, but the only way to answer it is to see Vanek get elite time for a season and see what the results are. Right now he's getting the most ice time of his career, 17:35 a game. This isn't going to happen under Lindy. I would be shocked if the next coach of the Sabres doesn't let Thomas be the man, maybe even give him the C. It's probably what he needs to thrive. When your coach believes in you, and doesn't lie to you, it goes a long way. Tom is a special player. He needs a change of scenery. I hope it happens here.

[Robviously]

If I could interject , when he says the best skater he's not talking about his skating ability he's stating that he's a hockey player that isn't a goaltender. Forwards and defencemen have sometimes been known to be called skaters.

Thanks. I felt like I was taking crazy pills.

[Robviously]

Was Vanek ever given that opportunity before or since? Lindy, by the way, once saw a budding Selke candidate in Vanek.

 

Vanek scored 76 goals the first two seasons Post-Captains. With suppressed ice time and missing nine games in 08-09 when he was just starting to warm up. In this era and in this system, that's pretty elite winger play.

 

Maybe he leaves it all on the ice.

This. All of this.

 

There is absolutely no explanation for a bad hockey team not loading their best player up with ice time. It's bad enough that his current center is Jochen Hecht, who (as we saw last night) has absolutely no ability to make a good pass ever.

 

Vanek was one of the only Sabres to step up his game after Drury and Briere left in 2007. It'd be nice to have a coach who noticed.

[bob_sauve28]

Right, because Lindy never sticks with the wrong players for too long or makes decisions that hurt the team. :rolleyes:

Ha! Exactly. I still don't get Neidermyer playing with Ennis. Do Vanek and Ennis not work well together or something? I just don't get this.

 

It's real nice to see Vanek playing like a superstar again :thumbsup:

[nfreeman]

Just to sink this idiotic idea that Lindy Ruff is doling out ice time based solely on who "earns" it....

Wrong. As PA pointed out, he used to score shorthanded goals on the PK when Ruff put him out there.

 

And if he's such a terrible 5 on 5 player, how did he manage to lead the entire NHL in +/- a few years back? Oh, that's right, he was on a decent team then. Weird how that works.

 

Every NHL player looks tired after a shift. Turns out playing hockey is strenuous. Crazy, I know.

 

This is really your closing argument? That he looks tired to you? Tremendous.

Vanek may or may not deserve more ice time, but there's a bit too much hostility in these posts.

 

Hecht has spent a lot of time playing center over the past few seasons, and centers usually do average more ice time than wingers.

 

So, using your link, let's compare Vanek against some of the LWs with the highest ice time for the better teams in the league:

 

Vanek: 17:31

Franzen: 17:33

Kunitz: 18:24

D Sedin: 18:42

Lucic: 16:25

Nash: 18:39

Cammalleri: 18:08

 

So Vanek plays a shift or two less than most of the guys on the list. Not too bad considering all the guys besides Vanek are plus players (Kunitz and Sedin are both +14). Vanek is -11.

 

When compared to the industry, Vanek's ice time isn't far off the norm, especially when you consider that his +/- numbers this season classify him as a defensive liability.

Not sure the point you're trying to make here, but Vanek is not "clearly the best skater on the team," which is the point you tried to make earlier. He's barely in the top 10 skaters on the team.

 

Vanek has played 436 regular season games as a Sabre, and over a stretch of about 5 games two and a half seasons ago, managed to score TWO shorthanded goals (the only ones of his entire career). Did he score those goals because he's a hot/cold, streaky player, or did he score them because he's a budding Selke trophy candidate? If you guessed the former, you'd be right.

 

Yeah, that is weird. Vanek was a -11 his rookie season. He then exploded his second season playing on the 2nd and 3rd lines, and managed to post a +47. If he maintained even half that total every season since then, he would be considered an elite winger.

 

But when Briere and Drury left his third season, he posted a -5, for a net gain of -52 from one season to the next. Weird how facing the opponent's top checking line knocked him out of that elite winger category, isn't it.

 

In fact, take away that second season, and Vanek is a -21 for his career. Without favorable line matchups, Vanek isn't in the 'elite' winger category, so why should he get elite minutes?

 

They don't look as tired as Vanek looks. Not every player looks like they are going to puke and then die after a shift. (By the way, Vanek got 20+ minutes of ice time against the Islanders tonight and was a -2).

 

But if that closing argument isn't good enough for you, how about this one: Vanek is a streak player who disappears for long stretches and is not strong enough defensively to warrant minutes on the PK or when his team is defending a lead late in the game. Despite being a defensive liability, his ice time compares favorably with other solid LWs in the league, and for that reason the accusations that Ruff is not giving him enough ice time are false.

 

Despite what we debate here, I do like Vanek. I just see him more of a player that picks his spots than a game-in/game-out difference maker. And for that reason, I believe that Ruff has got it right. Vanek is a 17-18 minute/game winger.

Wow. Outstanding. I haven't seen you around much -- hope you keep posting.

 

Was Vanek ever given that opportunity before or since? Lindy, by the way, once saw a budding Selke candidate in Vanek.

 

Vanek scored 76 goals the first two seasons Post-Captains. With suppressed ice time and missing nine games in 08-09 when he was just starting to warm up. In this era and in this system, that's pretty elite winger play.

 

Maybe he leaves it all on the ice. The first time Zack Kassian's chest is heaving after a good shift, you'll be happier. Nick Mendola is probably right.

 

Anyway, good points on both sides, but the only way to answer it is to see Vanek get elite time for a season and see what the results are. Right now he's getting the most ice time of his career, 17:35 a game. This isn't going to happen under Lindy. I would be shocked if the next coach of the Sabres doesn't let Thomas be the man, maybe even give him the C. It's probably what he needs to thrive. When your coach believes in you, and doesn't lie to you, it goes a long way. Tom is a special player. He needs a change of scenery. I hope it happens here.

Did Lindy really see a budding Selke candidate, or was he perhaps trying to encourage Tom to play a better all-around game?

 

I also expect the next coach to give Vanek a long look, with plenty of ice time. It'll be interesting to see what the results are.

 

Finally, one point about "earning" ice time and who the "best" players are: Vanek isn't the "best" player on the team, and doesn't "earn" more ice time, just because he's got the most goal-scoring talent. The best players, and the players who earn the most ice time, are the ones who contribute to winning the games. This is why Kovalchuk isn't the "best" player in the NHL, or even close. Having talent is one thing; using it correctly and contributing to wins is another.

[Robviously]

Vanek may or may not deserve more ice time, but there's a bit too much hostility in these posts.

Sorry, I'm trying to compensate because my hockey team is full of lifeless candyasses.

[nfreeman]

Sorry, I'm trying to compensate because my hockey team is full of lifeless candyasses.

I'm familiar with that sentiment.

 

However: they are showing signs of life despite a pretty substantial wave of injuries. If they can grind out another W on Tuesday, I am going to have a hard time not being optimistic. Of course, if they mail it in like they did in the first 2 games vs. the Isles, doom and gloom will return with a vengeance.

[Calvin]

Of course, if they mail it in like they did in the first 2 games vs. the Isles, doom and gloom will return with a vengeance.

That will apply if they mail it in for any game here on until the end of the season

[spndnchz]

Tonight I'm just thinking Leafs over Hurricanes and Rangers over Caps. Tomorrow's a big game for the Sabres.

[carpandean]

Tonight I'm just thinking Leafs over Hurricanes and Rangers over Caps.

Are these what you think or what you want? 'Cause I would definitely prefer the Caps over the Rangers.

[MattPie]

Are these what you think or what you want? 'Cause I would definitely prefer the Caps over the Rangers.

 

Hmm, Caps just scored on a pretty defection. 1-0

 

But, I think the gist of the post was that the Rangers would win tonight (based on gut), so tomorrow is a big game to not lose ground. Of course if the Rangers lose, tomorrow is a big game so the Sabres can gain ground. :) Suffice it to say, the Sabres would be better off (this season-wise) if they win tomorrow. :)

[spndnchz]

Are these what you think or what you want? 'Cause I would definitely prefer the Caps over the Rangers.

 

Rangers beat Caps and gets them high. High enough to lose to panthers. Net win. Just the way I think.

[Doohickie]

Vanek still smokin'.

 

 

Just sayin'.

 

 

:thumbsup: