Hahaha! Torres has 6 goals so far for Vancouver

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

... and now he has 1 goal in his last 16 games. ;)

 

Which one, Roy or Connolly?

[Robviously]

Which one, Roy or Connolly?

Has Connolly even played 16 games this year?

 

Will he manage to play even 16 more games as a Sabre?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Has Connolly even played 16 games this year?

 

Will he manage to play even 16 more games as a Sabre?

 

And just think, every time he opens the door to the pressbox, he collects a check for $50K.

 

Paul Hamilton is happy with $83.50 after taxes and a free ham sammich. And he actually adds value!

[Kristian]

Has Connolly even played 16 games this year?

Will he manage to play even 16 more games as a Sabre?

 

I would like to say "I hope not", grasping at the straw that says Connolly will not return after this season.

 

But given Tiny Tim's physigue, or lack thereof, "16 more games as a Sabre" could easily span another 2-year contract extension :wallbash:

[spndnchz]

Which one, Roy or Connolly?

 

Roy is 4 goals, 16 pts in his last 16 games

Connolly is 4 goals, 10 points in his last 16 games.

 

Not exactly first line scoring. Oh wait, you wanted to compare a Torres to a Roy. Nevermind.

[X. Benedict]

It's a pretty simple formula.

 

Sabres get a 200lb forward with some grit. Don't know how to use him. He languishes. Goes to Vancouver for peanuts. Scores 20 goals and is a key performer through multiple playoff series.

 

i.e. Pyatt 2007

Bernier 2008

Torres 2010

Becuase this thread became active again I looked at this.

 

While I never really understood your fascination with these guys beyond their size - your interest has encouraged me to keep an eye on them.

 

Incidentally, they are all playing third line with their organizations this year. Pyatt has recently been playing fourth. All solid NHL players, but I've never really believed that Buffalo underestimated their potential when not locking these guys into long deals.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Roy is 4 goals, 16 pts in his last 16 games

Connolly is 4 goals, 10 points in his last 16 games.

 

Not exactly first line scoring. Oh wait, you wanted to compare a Torres to a Roy. Nevermind.

 

Hmmnnn....let's see here.

 

Now, I see Roy having 1 goal in his last 14 games. And 3 in his last 20. Unless you are counting the empty netter he scored in some random guy's ass on twitter....

 

Connolly.....Double the production! 2 goals in his last 14 played. Now, I emphasise PLAYED, since it is really 2 goals in the last 22 games the team has played.

 

So.....we have $8.5 million worth of 1st and 2nd line center, scoring 3 goals in their last 28 combined games.

 

And lil' ol Raffie with his 8 goals, which would be 3rd on the Sabres by the way, twiddling along, making his 1 mil for the year....on a division leader nonetheless.

 

I'm just saying.....when you go yankin a dead thread up, be careful what ya yank. You never know what will spit out at you!

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Becuase this thread became active again I looked at this.

 

While I never really understood your fascination with these guys beyond their size - your interest has encouraged me to keep an eye on them.

 

Incidentally, they are all playing third line with their organizations this year. Pyatt has recently been playing fourth. All solid NHL players, but I've never really believed that Buffalo underestimated their potential when not locking these guys into long deals.

 

It is not just the players themselves, but the fact that Ruff can't use them in his system.....and the type of players we are left with in their wake.

 

The line of Hecht, Niedermeyer and Grier are making $2 million more combined than Torres, Bernier and Pyatt. Pyatt is a +5 and doing his thing with 6 golas and is now 29. Bernier has 5 goals in 20 games after getting nicked up and is only 25, averaging 15-20 goals a year while still maturing. Torres is Torres, playing on a division leader. They have 19 goals combined for $4 million. Subtract Vanek and Roy, and you can't find 3 Sabres with that combined total. All 3 would also be in the top 5 of the Sabres in hits per game.

 

Again, it is not only the players themselves, but the opportunity cost of who is signed in their place. The culture that has been cemented.

[spndnchz]

Hmmnnn....let's see here.

 

Now, I see Roy having 1 goal in his last 14 games. And 3 in his last 20. Unless you are counting the empty netter he scored in some random guy's ass on twitter....

 

Connolly.....Double the production! 2 goals in his last 14 played. Now, I emphasise PLAYED, since it is really 2 goals in the last 22 games the team has played.

 

So.....we have $8.5 million worth of 1st and 2nd line center, scoring 3 goals in their last 28 combined games.

 

And lil' ol Raffie with his 8 goals, which would be 3rd on the Sabres by the way, twiddling along, making his 1 mil for the year....on a division leader nonetheless.

 

I'm just saying.....when you go yankin a dead thread up, be careful what ya yank. You never know what will spit out at you!

 

No need to talk about money shots here, it was three for Roy.

[carpandean]

Now, I see Roy having 1 goal in his last 14 games.

Roy has 9G, 20A in 30GP this season. For comparison, Joe Thornton has 7G, 19A in 27GP. Roy's doing fine (overplaying that OT chance against Boston, aside.) Vanek has been putting the puck in the net and Roy has been setting him up (as he did before Vanek got his head back on straight, but he was netting the rebounds, then.) As usual, it's either he's scoring or Vanek is, but in both cases, Roy's in on it.

[X. Benedict]

It is not just the players themselves, but the fact that Ruff can't use them in his system.....and the type of players we are left with in their wake.

 

The line of Hecht, Niedermeyer and Grier are making $2 million more combined than Torres, Bernier and Pyatt. Pyatt is a +5 and doing his thing with 6 golas and is now 29. Bernier has 5 goals in 20 games after getting nicked up and is only 25, averaging 15-20 goals a year while still maturing. Torres is Torres, playing on a division leader. They have 19 goals combined for $4 million. Subtract Vanek and Roy, and you can't find 3 Sabres with that combined total. All 3 would also be in the top 5 of the Sabres in hits per game.

 

Again, it is not only the players themselves, but the opportunity cost of who is signed in their place. The culture that has been cemented.

 

I was thinking the same thing in terms of opportunity cost, but perhaps from a different perspective, not in terms of the players that they have on the roster, but the ones that have the potential to come up. Signing a Torres locks out an Adam for instance.

 

I really expect all three to have solid journeymen-like NHL careers.

 

Incidentally, I really think a healthy Neidermeyer would have made a great difference to this team.

[RazielSabre]

Just goes to show you how bad Lindy is at this point. Cant coach a guy up :doh:

 

And Briere and Drury were future HOFers until they got here? Don't get me wrong, I dont think he is an amazing coach but his by no means the worst. We could do alot worse IMHO.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I was thinking the same thing in terms of opportunity cost, but perhaps from a different perspective, not in terms of the players that they have on the roster, but the ones that have the potential to come up. Signing a Torres locks out an Adam for instance.

 

I really expect all three to have solid journeymen-like NHL careers.

 

Incidentally, I really think a healthy Neidermeyer would have made a great difference to this team.

 

A healthy Neidermeyer hasn't made a great difference to ANY team. The fact they let him go a quarter of the season the way he played is sad. I think they are Rivet'ing him. Rivet had "the flu", and Niedermeyer might as well get the knee scoped that is probably no different from 3 years ago.

 

And 4 million for 3 journymen who hit, are hard to move from in front of the net and on the boards, and can each score 60 combined goals while all being under 30.....yeah, I'll take that journey over 85% of the forwards on this team. Roy and Vanek....the only 2 who are more valuable than those 3. Maybe Ennis in time. Meanwhile Stafford, Hecht, Gaustad, Pominville (some excuse built in), Neidermeyer, and Grier were brought in as the #4-10 forwards. Those 6 players have 17 combined goals in 147 games and are making $15.4 million.

 

You don't think having a body in front of the net on the PP could help? It doesn't matter....because Lindy doesn't care. Bernier was too slow, Torres was too fat, and Pyatt was too dreamy for Lindy. Now you rely on a true journeyman in McCormick, a glorified agitator with health issues in Kaleta, a 20lb underweight faceoff specialist in Gaustad, and a truly too slow player in Adam, to make up for a lack of energy and general team apathy.

 

I haven't ragged much on the team this year because the results speak for themself. But Really? Pull up a thread from the 4th page to rag on a guy making almost vet minnimum who would still be the 3rd leading scorer on this team while highlighting all the deficiencies of the management, coaching, and team to boot?

[JujuFish]

But Really? Pull up a thread from the 4th page to rag on a guy making almost vet minnimum who would still be the 3rd leading scorer on this team while highlighting all the deficiencies of the management, coaching, and team to boot?

The dude has 2 points in his last 15 games. I don't see anything wrong with bringing up this thread to point that out given the context for which it was made in the first place.

 

Also, his 11 points would make him tied for 6th on the team, which is a bit pathetic for Buffalo even then, but he's not the 3rd.

[shrader]

I haven't ragged much on the team this year because the results speak for themself. But Really? Pull up a thread from the 4th page to rag on a guy making almost vet minnimum who would still be the 3rd leading scorer on this team while highlighting all the deficiencies of the management, coaching, and team to boot?

 

And here's the big problem with what you're saying. He has put those numbers up in Vancouver but that does not mean he would have put up the same exact numbers playing here. Players have more value to some teams than they do to others. Now I'm with you that the coaching completely butchered the situation with Torres, but the rest is just beating a dead horse. They should have kept this guy, they shouldn't have kept that guy. It's done. Those moves can't be undone. The only thing they can change is where they go from here.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

And here's the big problem with what you're saying. He has put those numbers up in Vancouver but that does not mean he would have put up the same exact numbers playing here. Players have more value to some teams than they do to others. Now I'm with you that the coaching completely butchered the situation with Torres, but the rest is just beating a dead horse. They should have kept this guy, they shouldn't have kept that guy. It's done. Those moves can't be undone. The only thing they can change is where they go from here.

 

The point being.....they made THE EXACT SAME MOVE with Pyatt, Bernier, and Torres. All 3 are 200lb+ forwards who are hard to move off the puck, will stick up for teammates, were young or in their prime, could be had for low cost, and can chip in between 15-30 goals any given year.

 

Pyatt and Bernier went to Vancouver during off years for the Canucks and went on to make noise in the playoffs. Pyatt is the forward we wanted Hecht to be, for 1/3 the price. This after he was a bull against Carolina in the playoffs and still 25. Bernier was a monster when left to play on instincts and once limited to "The System", was suddenly too slow for Lindy. Torres was like bringing in a longshoreman to a room full of CPA's. He looked out of place and I'm sure was glad to redeem himself somewhere else.

 

I don't think any of them are all-stars. I don't even think they are the best examples of power forwards. But the only point people can come up with is "Oh, they played with the Sedins!". "Oh, they play on a good team". Well, Phoenix was an afterthought going into last season but Pyatt was a top defensive forward and continues to be on a team that values physical play and hard work. Vancouver has been at the top of their conference because they fleece "journeymen" from other teams and put a good mix on the ice. Heck, Bernier is on a Florida team that blew itself up and is on pace for another 15-20 goal season as they trade barbs with the Sabres in the bottom 1/3 of the league.

 

Great, they are gone. But who were they replaced with? Grier and Neidermeyer, 3 years too late, and raises to Stafford, Gaustad, Hecht and Pominville to the tune of $15 million+. I still think there is hope for Gaustad and Stafford if they went to another team as well....but Mr Goose may have developed a terminal case of Lindyitis and other teams aren't willing to take the chance.

 

Hey....the Sabres were a division champion, right! Maybe Torres would have 13 goals here!

 

Doesn't matter.....talking about players with the skillset of Pyatt, Bernier and Torres on the Sabres are like talking about what Rosie O'Donnell would do in the bedroom with Bradd Pitt, John Hamm, and Russel Crowe.

[Weave]

IMO Lindy doesn't know how to fit big men into his "system". Dave Andreychuck is case and point here. Andreychuck did score 20 goals in his 2nd stint in Buffalo but was on and off the powerplay and in and out of Lindy's doghouse all season. And at the end of the season the team didn't deem him worth keeping around. Just like Bernier and Pyatt.

 

Bernier and Pyatt aren't world beaters but they were def out of place in Lindy's lineup. They seemed to have decent value to the teams they went to after Buffalo determined them to be baggage.

 

I hope the same fate isn't waiting for Adam, Kassian and Foligno.

[spndnchz]

The point being.....they made THE EXACT SAME MOVE with Pyatt, Bernier, and Torres. All 3 are 200lb+ forwards who are hard to move off the puck, will stick up for teammates, were young or in their prime, could be had for low cost, and can chip in between 15-30 goals any given year.

 

Pyatt and Bernier went to Vancouver during off years for the Canucks and went on to make noise in the playoffs. Pyatt is the forward we wanted Hecht to be, for 1/3 the price. This after he was a bull against Carolina in the playoffs and still 25. Bernier was a monster when left to play on instincts and once limited to "The System", was suddenly too slow for Lindy. Torres was like bringing in a longshoreman to a room full of CPA's. He looked out of place and I'm sure was glad to redeem himself somewhere else.

 

I don't think any of them are all-stars. I don't even think they are the best examples of power forwards. But the only point people can come up with is "Oh, they played with the Sedins!". "Oh, they play on a good team". Well, Phoenix was an afterthought going into last season but Pyatt was a top defensive forward and continues to be on a team that values physical play and hard work. Vancouver has been at the top of their conference because they fleece "journeymen" from other teams and put a good mix on the ice. Heck, Bernier is on a Florida team that blew itself up and is on pace for another 15-20 goal season as they trade barbs with the Sabres in the bottom 1/3 of the league.

 

Great, they are gone. But who were they replaced with? Grier and Neidermeyer, 3 years too late, and raises to Stafford, Gaustad, Hecht and Pominville to the tune of $15 million+. I still think there is hope for Gaustad and Stafford if they went to another team as well....but Mr Goose may have developed a terminal case of Lindyitis and other teams aren't willing to take the chance.

 

Hey....the Sabres were a division champion, right! Maybe Torres would have 13 goals here!

 

Doesn't matter.....talking about players with the skillset of Pyatt, Bernier and Torres on the Sabres are like talking about what Rosie O'Donnell would do in the bedroom with Bradd Pitt, John Hamm, and Russel Crowe.

 

That's stretching it eh?

 

15-20G and 40-50 pts, 30 g and 70 points before they got their contracts. That was their promise, that's why they got contracts. They're not living up to them but they're not here to replace a Pyatt, Bernier or Torres.

 

The game is still about the top 6. 6 players with Shot % over .5, most teams have this, like the Sabres. They're not putting the puck in the net right now.

 

IDS Miller getting run or even bumped this year as much as last few. They're playing well, just not taking advantage of the opportunities. There is a fine line between playing a system and restricting the talent of your players. I don't think has a poor handle on this. Some players get it, some don't. I don't want 23 Kovy on my team. Or should I say 15 because we can't afford a full roster.

 

76 goals in 326 games. .23 GPG. 125 pts

77 goals in 330 games .23 GPG 181 pts

 

Which player do you want?

[X. Benedict]

 

 

Doesn't matter.....talking about players with the skillset of Pyatt, Bernier and Torres on the Sabres are like talking about what Rosie O'Donnell would do in the bedroom with Bradd Pitt, John Hamm, and Russel Crowe.

:lol: That's funny...but...

 

 

I really think these types of player are struggling in today's NHL. They all have decent momentum and acceleration straight ahead once they get moving, but all have pretty poor agility on their skates.

 

Once was a time that these guys could dump and were fast enough to catch slow defensemen in the corners. But now most d-men are fast enough that that is only a turnover.

 

Once these forwards have the puck they have good possession skills, but these horses are too slow through the neutral zone in league that has gone on to clean entries first and dumps second.

 

The NHL trend seems to be a slightly smaller forward closer to 200 lbs playing these roles (Chris Kunitz, Bobby Ryan for example, with much better agility and nimbleness).

 

I guess that is a long way of saying, I really don't think it is coaching, and I don't miss them. :D But I'm still tracking them because really....I'm not absolutely sure.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Chz....come'on.

 

Maybe you should switch your avatar to a picture of the Alamo.

[spndnchz]

Chz....come'on.

 

Maybe you should switch your avatar to a picture of the Alamo.

 

Sticking to the personal put down? Then again, arguing on a message board is like winning the Special Olympics, you may think you've won but you're still a handicapped.

[Skibum]

Regardless of what the're doing today, Pyatt, Bernier, and Torres did Jack Squat as Sabres. You forgot Zubrus and Moore, too. I don't know, maybe it's a pattern or whatever, but the fact is that those guys had to be let go based on their performance as Sabres. How big of a tool would Darcy have been to re-up Torres after he scored zero goals for Buffalo?

[PASabreFan]

Sticking to the personal put down? Then again, arguing on a message board is like winning the Special Olympics, you may think you've won but you're still a handicapped.

Thanks President Obama.

[X. Benedict]

Regardless of what the're doing today, Pyatt, Bernier, and Torres did Jack Squat as Sabres. You forgot Zubrus and Moore, too. I don't know, maybe it's a pattern or whatever, but the fact is that those guys had to be let go based on their performance as Sabres. How big of a tool would Darcy have been to re-up Torres after he scored zero goals for Buffalo?

 

I thought, and still think, Zubrus was the best of the lot.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

:lol: That's funny...but...

 

 

I really think these types of player are struggling in today's NHL. They all have decent momentum and acceleration straight ahead once they get moving, but all have pretty poor agility on their skates.

 

Once was a time that these guys could dump and were fast enough to catch slow defensemen in the corners. But now most d-men are fast enough that that is only a turnover.

 

Once these forwards have the puck they have good possession skills, but these horses are too slow through the neutral zone in league that has gone on to clean entries first and dumps second.

 

The NHL trend seems to be a slightly smaller forward closer to 200 lbs playing these roles (Chris Kunitz, Bobby Ryan for example, with much better agility and nimbleness).

 

I guess that is a long way of saying, I really don't think it is coaching, and I don't miss them. :D But I'm still tracking them because really....I'm not absolutely sure.

 

 

Playoffs

 

Bernier was a key in the 1st round last year. The refs swallow whistles, and players like Sekera are left sucking on a binkie in the corner.

 

And how can you say it isn't coaching when Ruff has come out in public and said he doesn't want his forwards to play physical if it means giving up any defensive position or risk taking a penalty? That's when I gave up on the "Ruff is making the best of what he's dealt" theory. Like Darcy sitting back and letting the market dictate to him, Ruff has his guys sit back and the play gets dictated to them as well.

 

Ruff said Bernier was too slow, and Torres was out of shape. OK? Brian Boitano can probably skate circles around Ovechkin too. Ruff doesn't get it. Gaustad was a PP asset 5 years ago the tiny time he played out there. He was hard to move and was a great screen. Even popped in a few. After the free agent defection, Lindy makes him lose the weight. The guy lost his mojo.

 

I find it interesting that Adam has been playing. It's nice to see him get that garbage goal the other day, but to me, he really is too slow. At least there are guys like him and Weber getting a look.....and in all honesty, if the Sabres somehow get into the playoffs, guys like Rivet and Morrisson and Montador will be more valuable than they are now. They can get by on defense....it's just all the years of purging any talent with size or grit has forced them to field a team of defensive specialists on the front end who were brought in on the cheap or who don't have the punch to eek out 3-2 wins in the playoffs. It is up to Miller to stand on his head, and we all know that is a dicey strategy.