Danny Briere 2 goals last night

[nfreeman]

Thanks, Free - that means something coming from you. And you make a fair point as well.

 

There may've been a way in which the gaps in Briere's game (which were always there, always the same) became a lightning rod for our frustrations with the team's overall inability to shoot-in, punish, retrieve, and cycle in the 2007 playoffs (and beyond). But like I said, it was never Danny's job to do that sort of work.

 

That said, and even with his performance in round 1 this year, the numbers that would have been required to keep him here didn't, and still don't, make sense.

Another excellent observation. As for the numbers, this is something just can't be known. I will always believe that Bucky is full of crap when he claims that Briere would've signed for $5 million x 5 years on January 1, but I do think he would've stayed for 6x6, and I really think we should've snagged him then, at those numbers, because they should've realized that Drury was gone and the consequences of losing both were going to be catastrophic. But you could easily be right that Briere had decided that he was going to see where UFA season took him, and I would've dropped out of the bidding once it got above 6x6.

 

I think I just get riled up when I see people gleefully taking shots at Briere that are just nonsensical. It sounds even more foolish in the broader context -- i.e. we're out of the playoffs and Danny's likely leading his new team into the 2nd round and is the leading playoff scorer in the NHL over the past 3 years.

 

Forget the money.....teams have to spend a certain amount of money....look at the term.

I'm not being facetious when I say if you are going to compare the two we'll have a better idea in 2014.

That Briere can score on the rush and near the net is no surprise.

 

What happens in a 7 game series is that you can't hide bad D pairings. Esp. on the road.

 

This is absolutely true. I just think that giving your leading scorer (regular season and playoffs) a 6-year contract isn't a bad long-term move if he doesn't turn 30 until after the start of that contract (Briere turned 30 last October). It's reasonable to expect at least 4 good years, if not all 6, and you can probably dump him before or during his last year.

 

As for the 7-game series, this is also absolutely right, although I think our loss to the Senators last year was a lot closer than most people around here seem to think. A healthy Zubrus and a slightly better power play and we would've beaten them (and maybe Anaheim too).

 

That's my problem with management, you don't wait until a players contract is up to negiotiate with them, and you don't let other teams dictate contracts to your players. For this reasoning, I don't know why our management team hasn't been fired yet?! Now I'm not going to say that I can do a better job at being a VP or a GM of a professional sports team, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to figure out that you should try to resign your players before the start of their final season under contract, and not wait until their contract is up. I don't want to hear any crap that management learn it's lesson, that's inexcusable, they dropped the ball and it cost us this year.

 

This is largely true, although it's an oversimplification when it comes to pinpointing a reason for the Sabres' troubles this past season. They made hockey/economic decisions on Briere and Soupy -- ie they decided that they weren't interested in those players at the prices those players requested. It had nothing to do with timing. With Drury, they did try to lock him up well before UFA season, but they butchered it through incompetence, and they've admitted as much. As you said, they dropped the ball, and there is no excuse for them losing him, but it wasn't a case of waiting for the start of free agency, either.

 

That leaves Vanek, whose agent has been quoted on the record as saying that they were going to see what free agency had to offer. Should they have tried harder to extend Vanek before free agency? Probably, but it's quite possible that all offers would have been rejected in favor of seeing what else was out there -- which turned out to be the right decision for Vanek.

 

So now we have to see how they handle Miller and Pominville. I am actually pretty optimistic that both will be re-signed, but if they screw it up with either of them, I will be just as PO'd as you are.

[X. Benedict]

That's my problem with management, you don't wait until a players contract is up to negiotiate with them, and you don't let other teams dictate contracts to your players. For this reasoning, I don't know why our management team hasn't been fired yet?! Now I'm not going to say that I can do a better job at being a VP or a GM of a professional sports team, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to figure out that you should try to resign your players before the start of their final season under contract, and not wait until their contract is up. I don't want to hear any crap that management learn it's lesson, that's inexcusable, they dropped the ball and it cost us this year.

A fair point...but...

Disregard anything players may happen to say. Why would they sign for under market value?

The security of a guaranteed contract is perhaps one reason.

The chance to win is another.

 

The league has become a futures market.

 

It will be interesting to see how Philly manages their cap in the coming year.

If the cap goes to 56 (their only hope) they still only have 6-7 million to spend to

bring in Carter, Umberger, Prospel, Jones, Smith, etc.

 

Maybe they figure a way.....or maybe it is deeply flawed approach.

Of course I don't see Philly getting too far. But anything can happen.

 

Carolina did exactly what you accuse Buffalo of not doing - they wrapped up

everybody after they won the cup. They are now 2 years on the outside.

[That Aud Smell]

<sigh>

 

you don't wait until a players contract is up to negiotiate with them, and you don't let other teams dictate contracts to your players.

 

nor are you permitted to hold a gun to their head and say "sign here." the "free" in free agency is there for a reason.

 

Now I'm not going to say that I can do a better job at being a VP or a GM of a professional sports team,

 

a stunning admission.

[bob_sauve28]

So now we have to see how they handle Miller and Pominville. I am actually pretty optimistic that both will be re-signed, but if they screw it up with either of them, I will be just as PO'd as you are.

That would be a nighmare if they got away. Trudging through the darkness of finding a new and good goalie would be heartbreaking. Pommer needs to be here long term also.

[bob_sauve28]

<sigh>

nor are you permitted to hold a gun to their head and say "sign here." the "free" in free agency is there for a reason.a stunning admission.

If he was the GM he'd do it! :D

[X. Benedict]

If he was the GM he'd do it! :D

I think we should hire Christopher Walken as GM.

 

"Zoweee Pommer, this document in front of you is incredibly fair, and the gun to your head is a Smith and Wesson."

[GoatheadInCT]

<sigh>

nor are you permitted to hold a gun to their head and say "sign here." the "free" in free agency is there for a reason.

 

Holding a gun to his head? You are thoroughly confused... it was the complete lack of interest that gave Danny the signal that

he wasn't really wanted. He was "free" in name AND conscience, for it was the Sabres MANAGEMENT that chose to let him sign

with the Flyers and then pay Vanek over him. They basically told him he was nothing to them, and off he went.

They made the choice EASY, and it sucks.

 

a stunning admission.

 

We can't do any worse than last offseason, that's for sure. If after this offseason things have not changed, you'll share our

anger... ohh yes, it is coming.

[carpandean]

Holding a gun to his head? You are thoroughly confused... it was the complete lack of interest that gave Danny the signal that

he wasn't really wanted. He was "free" in name AND conscience, for it was the Sabres MANAGEMENT that chose Vanek over

him. They basically told him he was nothing to them, and off he went. They made the choice EASY, and it sucks.

We can't do any worse than last offseason, that's for sure. If after this offseason things have not changed, you'll share our

anger... ohh yes, it is coming.

He was talking about Vanek. They couldn't hold a gun to his head and tell him that he has to sign. His agent said they wanted to wait to see what FA had to offer and it worked out for him.

 

They could have done worse: we could have signed Briere and Drury for 6x6 (or more), extended Campbell, Kalinin and signed T-bo for 3 years. Oh, and not re-signed Roy. And not extended Hecht.

[That Aud Smell]

I think we should hire Christopher Walken as GM.

 

"Zoweee Pommer, this document in front of you is incredibly fair, and the gun to your head is a Smith and Wesson."

 

This is the sort of stuff that keeps me here during our off-season.

 

Holding a gun to his head? You are thoroughly confused... it was the complete lack of interest that gave Danny the signal that

he wasn't really wanted. He was "free" in name AND conscience, for it was the Sabres MANAGEMENT that chose to let him sign

with the Flyers and then pay Vanek over him. They basically told him he was nothing to them, and off he went.

They made the choice EASY, and it sucks.

We can't do any worse than last offseason, that's for sure. If after this offseason things have not changed, you'll share our

anger... ohh yes, it is coming.

 

Gotcha. I am confused. You are clairvoyant (and also possibly a shape-shifter?).

 

 

He was talking about Vanek.

 

I think the point's equally (moreso?) applicable to Vanek - but I was actually talking about Briere there. At least I think I was. :blink:

[Mike Oxhurtz]

<sigh>

nor are you permitted to hold a gun to their head and say "sign here." the "free" in free agency is there for a reason.

a stunning admission.

 

If management tried to negiotiate with a player, and that player decided he didn't want to accept the offer, then I feel a lot of us would have been fine with that. In that point, at least management tried to negiotiate a deal in a timely manner, so I would have no problem with that.

 

As far as your other smart a-- comment, keeping drinking the kool aid, Regier needs mindless morons like you to keeping thinking he's doing a great job.

[carpandean]

I think the point's equally (moreso?) applicable to Vanek - but I was actually talking about Briere there. At least I think I was. :blink:

Ah, the end of the post you responded to was "you don't let other teams dictate contracts to your players", so I assumed that you were referring to Vanek. It definitely applies in his case, too.

[X. Benedict]

If management tried to negiotiate with a player, and that player decided he didn't want to accept the offer, then I feel a lot of us would have been fine with that. In that point, at least management tried to negiotiate a deal in a timely manner, so I would have no problem with that.

 

They talked, but didn't negotiate, by June the numbers Pat Brinson was talking about were non-starters.

[That Aud Smell]

If management tried to negiotiate with a player, and that player decided he didn't want to accept the offer, then I feel a lot of us would have been fine with that. In that point, at least management tried to negiotiate a deal in a timely manner, so I would have no problem with that.

 

no need for "if's" around here - there are posters around here (on this very thread, in fact) who know for a fact how such things went down.

 

As far as your other smart a-- comment, keeping drinking the kool aid, Regier needs mindless morons like you to keeping thinking he's doing a great job.

 

That's me, bro - to a tee.

 

Ironically, Darcy was personally thanking me for my unique blend of blind devotion and limited faculties just last weekend when I was sweeping out his garage (for free, of course) -- it was pretty dirty in there.

[X. Benedict]

Ironically, Darcy was personally thanking me for my unique blend of blind devotion and limited faculties just last weekend when I was sweeping out his garage (for free, of course) -- it was pretty dirty in there.

Now I see there is a nice way to handle that. :lol:

[Mike Oxhurtz]

no need for "if's" around here - there are posters around here (on this very thread, in fact) who know for a fact how such things went down.

That's me, bro - to a tee.

 

Ironically, Darcy was personally thanking me for my unique blend of blind devotion and limited faculties just last weekend when I was sweeping out his garage (for free, of course) -- it was pretty dirty in there.

 

Damn, I got to give it to you, that is devotion!!!

[tom webster]

He was talking about Vanek. They couldn't hold a gun to his head and tell him that he has to sign. His agent said they wanted to wait to see what FA had to offer and it worked out for him.

 

They could have done worse: we could have signed Briere and Drury for 6x6 (or more), extended Campbell, Kalinin and signed T-bo for 3 years. Oh, and not re-signed Roy. And not extended Hecht.

 

Hecht is an interesting question. While we all seem to have universal respect for him as a player and like what he brings to the table. I am not sure he is worthy of the contract he was awarded. And I am sure I would have been willing to sacrifice him to keep Drury. If things work out the way we all envision, you are talking about the fifth or six forward on the team making close to $4 million.

[carpandean]

Hecht is an interesting question. While we all seem to have universal respect for him as a player and like what he brings to the table. I am not sure he is worthy of the contract he was awarded. And I am sure I would have been willing to sacrifice him to keep Drury. If things work out the way we all envision, you are talking about the fifth or six forward on the team making close to $4 million.

Yeah, but that $4 million (actually $3.525 million cap hit) earns its money covering your own zone while one of your $6 million players is cherry-picking. :P

 

Hecht is like a Drury-light. Great two-way forward that always battles hard, has some offensive abilities, anchors your PK and provides some leadership.

[tom webster]

Yeah, but that $4 million (actually $3.525 million cap hit) earns its money covering your own zone while one of your $6 million players is cherry-picking. :P

 

Hecht is like a Drury-light. Great two-way forward that always battles hard, has some offensive abilities, anchors your PK and provides some leadership.

 

I think great is an over statement and as much as anyone, he did not seem to step up at the end of the year.

If you break down the last twnety games, in three victories against Ottawa, Tampa and Toronto he had 3 goals, 5 assists and a plus 9. In the other 17 games

he had 2 goals, 4 assists and was a minus 10.

[nfreeman]

I think great is an over statement and as much as anyone, he did not seem to step up at the end of the year.

If you break down the last twnety games, in three victories against Ottawa, Tampa and Toronto he had 3 goals, 5 assists and a plus 9. In the other 17 games

he had 2 goals, 4 assists and was a minus 10.

 

Good post, and highly indicative of the fact that it was a team-wide collapse -- ie not just Miller, or Vanek, or Max, or Tallinder, etc. etc. It also emphasizes the fact that we shouldn't be too quick to call ANYONE on this team a good leader, including Pominville, Hecht, Miller, Roy, etc. Just because someone is the leading scorer or the captain of the month or whatever, it doesn't mean that player is a good leader. They might just be less bad than the rest. If we had real leaders, we wouldn't have collapsed the way we did -- and Lindy and Darcy wouldn't be talking so much about the need for leadership.

[GoatheadInCT]

I think great is an over statement and as much as anyone, he did not seem to step up at the end of the year.

If you break down the last twnety games, in three victories against Ottawa, Tampa and Toronto he had 3 goals, 5 assists and a plus 9. In the other 17 games

he had 2 goals, 4 assists and was a minus 10.

 

So that means that Pominville enjoyed a stellar +/- in those same games, and did his job past Ottawa, Tampa, and Toronto?

 

Not really- you can't blame Hecht for a total team failure in that stretch. Inconsistency just killed us, and I wouldn't

burden Jochen Hecht with a scarlet letter F.

[tom webster]

So that means that Pominville enjoyed a stellar +/- in those same games, and did his job past Ottawa, Tampa, and Toronto?

 

Not really- you can't blame Hecht for a total team failure in that stretch. Inconsistency just killed us, and I wouldn't

burden Jochen Hecht with a scarlet letter F.

 

In that same stretch of games( He played three more games)Pominville had 11 goals, 16 assists and was a plus 10. In those three victories he had 3 goals, 5 assists and was a plus 8.

I am not paintinh Hecht with a scarlet F, but everyone including management talk about the lack of veteran leadership and Hecht along woth Henrik and Toni were the veterans they counted on.

[GoatheadInCT]

In that same stretch of games( He played three more games)Pominville had 11 goals, 16 assists and was a plus 10. In those three victories he had 3 goals, 5 assists and was a plus 8.

I am not paintinh Hecht with a scarlet F, but everyone including management talk about the lack of veteran leadership and Hecht along woth Henrik and Toni were the veterans they counted on.

 

I'll tell you what- trusting in Toni Lydman is a huge mistake- I am hopeful we can unload him one day for something better. Leaders on

offense with respect to Hecht just aren't found on this team. Jochen was hurt during the season as well, which didn't help matters.

 

Jochen Hecht has never been THE man anyways, and we're just lacking that element right now. I'm wary of what is next...

[tom webster]

I'll tell you what- trusting in Toni Lydman is a huge mistake- I am hopeful we can unload him one day for something better. Leaders on

offense with respect to Hecht just aren't found on this team. Jochen was hurt during the season as well, which didn't help matters.

 

Jochen Hecht has never been THE man anyways, and we're just lacking that element right now. I'm wary of what is next...

 

I want to make it clear, I like Hecht, I am just not sure I would have paid him that much money.

[carpandean]

I think great is an over statement and as much as anyone, he did not seem to step up at the end of the year.

If you break down the last twnety games, in three victories against Ottawa, Tampa and Toronto he had 3 goals, 5 assists and a plus 9. In the other 17 games

he had 2 goals, 4 assists and was a minus 10.

You may be right that "great" is a little bit of an overstatement, but then again, "great" players make $6+ million now. ;)

I would argue that like Drury, stats don't often capture his contributions. Stats make guys like Briere look good (except maybe +/-, but that's also the least reliable one) not guys like Hecht/Drury.

 

 

Just for the record:

In the Sabres last 20 games, he had 14 GP, 5 G, 7 A and was a -1.

In the Tampa and Toronto victories, he had 3 G, 3 A and was a +7.

In the other 12 games, he had 2 G, 4 A and was a -8.

 

You counted his last 20 games, but he was out with an injury for the end of February into early March.

 

In those same 14 games, Pommer had 5 G, 12 A and was a +4.

In the Tampa and Toronto victories, he had 3 G, 4 A and was a +7.

In the other 12 games, he had 2 G, 8 A and was a -3.

 

It was a team-wide problem.

[tom webster]

You may be right that "great" is a little bit of an overstatement, but then again, "great" players make $6+ million now. ;)

I would argue that like Drury, stats don't often capture his contributions. Stats make guys like Briere look good (except maybe +/-, but that's also the least reliable one) not guys like Hecht/Drury.

Just for the record:

In the Sabres last 20 games, he had 14 GP, 5 G, 7 A and was a -1.

In the Tampa and Toronto victories, he had 3 G, 3 A and was a +7.

In the other 12 games, he had 2 G, 4 A and was a -8.

 

You counted his last 20 games, but he was out with an injury for the end of February into early March.

 

In those same 14 games, Pommer had 5 G, 12 A and was a +4.

In the Tampa and Toronto victories, he had 3 G, 4 A and was a +7.

In the other 12 games, he had 2 G, 8 A and was a -3.

 

It was a team-wide problem.

 

And that's when they needed him to step up, and like Drury, display those intangibles. Like I said, I like him, just think he's overpaid for that fifth or sixth spot unless you believe he brings the intangibles that Drury does and I haven't heard him talked about in that way.