What to do with Norris?

[dudacek]

11 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

This offseason should be all about getting players that can move Norris down the roster on paper and hope he plays himself into a position where the team has to many talented options at every position. Every year this franchise seems to not want to rock the boat or block prospects and current players from moving up and just try to get lowere players to fill and improve the bottom of the roster.

I did this exercise a few weeks back, but look at the number of players who were flat out excellent in their projected roster spot:

Dahlin, Thompson, McLeod, probably Tuch, Krebs if you considered him the 13th forward?

Then you look at the outright failures: Power, Samuelsson, Jokiharju, Clifton, UPL, Quinn, Cozens, Greenway (health), Lafferty, Aube-Kubel

it's easy to see why they're a 77-point team.

[GASabresIUFAN]

31 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I did this exercise a few weeks back, but look at the number of players who were flat out excellent in their projected roster spot:

Dahlin, Thompson, McLeod, probably Tuch, Krebs if you considered him the 13th forward?

Then you look at the outright failures: Power, Samuelsson, Jokiharju, Clifton, UPL, Quinn, Cozens, Greenway (health), Lafferty, Aube-Kubel

it's easy to see why they're a 77-point team.

Yep. Another way to look at it is did the Sabres get decent or good value for a players contract cost.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6048291/2025/03/09/nhl-player-cards-atlantic/
 

Skaters only:

We got positive value relative to their contracts (including ELCs) from Dahlin, Thompson, Tuch, JJP, Byram, Benson, McLeod, Kulich, Krebs and even Quinn.  JBD also a positive, but small solid sample from time in Buffalo.

Negative value from Cozens, Power, Norris, Joki, Samuelsson, Clifton, Greenway, Malenstyn, Byrson and Lafferty

Not that any of this is a shock.  Dahlin and most of the top 9 forwards are on the good list and the rest of the defense, the oft injured Norris and Greenway and Adams’ retooled 4th line all failed. This matches the eye test and confirms what I have been saying.  Fix the defense (and goaltending) and you fix this team.  Byram got a pass because he spent most of the season with Dahlin.

Edited April 16 by GASabresIUFAN

[DarthEbriate]

With Norris, you play him until he breaks and you hope to get at to 25-25-50 before he's lost to season-ending IR. 

In 2025-26, you call up Östlund. Rinse and repeat, but in 2026-27 you call up Helenius. And you hope that whoever fills in as his top-6C replacement is as good or better.

You also hope he breaks before the trade deadline so that you can put him on LTIR, acquire someone with salary, and then maybe Norris is healthy and re-added for the playoffs. Note that this last item requires an owner willing to take on salary and is serious about winning, which... nevermind.

Edited April 16 by DarthEbriate

[WhenWillItEnd66]

Norris needs to be on the top line next year with Tage as long as he is healthy. Hoping shutting him down will let him heal and be ready for next year. A top Line of Kulich, Tage and Benson is not a top line. Anyone that thinks they are, needs to have their head examined

[HILLsabre]

On 4/14/2025 at 6:07 PM, PromoTheRobot said:

Shut him down and heal him up for next year.

I think this is exactly what is going on. (Team was out of playoffs when obtained) BUT, being totally healthy makes him much more valuable in a possible off season trade as well!( Which I think is very much in the cards.)

[gilbert11]

On 4/14/2025 at 1:42 PM, Mr. Allen said:

Does anyone know what injury he currently has? 

Ate some bad wings?

[Taro T]

On 4/16/2025 at 11:43 AM, WhenWillItEnd66 said:

Norris needs to be on the top line next year with Tage as long as he is healthy. Hoping shutting him down will let him heal and be ready for next year. A top Line of Kulich, Tage and Benson is not a top line. Anyone that thinks they are, needs to have their head examined

WHEN HEALTHY, sure, it'd be fine to have Norris on the top line.  You know, we know, Adams knows, and Ruff knows they can expect to have him for ~50 games but can't EXPECT him available for 1 game more than that.  So, they need to enter the season with a guy they aren't just hopeful that he can be adequate in that role when Norris is out but expect that he can actually be good in that role when Norris is out.  (And notice, not IF Norris is out, but WHEN Norris is out.)

They'll probably get close to 120 games out of Norris and Greenway combined; but they HAVE to build a roster that doesn't NEED either of them in it to be effective.  It'll be a challenge because those 2 combine for a lot of salary cap; but it isn't impossible.  They'll have Benson, Kulich, and Krebs in the 12 and none of them will be making much and they'll also still have Malenstyn in the bottom 6 along with Lafferty (he can't be as bad next season as he was the 1st 75 this year, right?) and somebody else not making much money.  And courtesy of Norris' 30 or so missed games and Greenway's 20+ missed there'll be a lot of opportunity to tap into LTIR should the need arise.

Trade Byram for a top 6W or trade some package for a top 6C and then either sliding Thompson to C when Norris is out or having some combination of Kulich/McLeod the 2C when Norris is out and you'd likely be able to still have an effective F group as you'd have Tuch and Zucker also in your top 6 and sliding Benson into the 2nd line for 30-40 games should still leave you OK in the top 6 and other guys could slide into there for a couple of games (maybe you'll even get lucky and have Greenway available when Norris isn't available).

Don't really want to trade Byram (especially with Power's early season quality of play in question) but they can't go into the season with Norris pencilled in as the 1C for 76 or so games.  Past history says he won't get close to that many games in.

Bring in another vet for the middle 6 via FA or via trade of a 2nd round pick and then figure out what to do with the last bottom 6 slot those games that Greenway will be out or somebody else is out and your're ok there.

[bob_sauve28]

 

[Archie Lee]

18 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

 

There are competing views on whether Pegula is too involved or disengaged. This video seems to want to dispel the notion that he is disengaged. And yet, it provides evidence that he is a meddler to those who think he is too involved. I haven’t watched such videos for other teams, assuming other teams produce similar content. Do other owners sit in on such discussions?  Is Pegula unique?  

The video, to me, displayed odd editorial choices. 

[JohnC]

16 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

 

The Sabres had to do something to change the mix with their roster. And it was evident to all that Cozens desperately needed a change of scenery. He was pressing to the point where he was frozen. It was apparent in his play and more apparent in his stiff body language. Moving him was the right thing for the player and the team.

As everyone else is saying, the overhanging issue with Norris is his injury history. For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that after an offseason of rest, rehabbing and training, he comes into camp fully healthy. This deal has the potential to be a good hockey trade for the Sabres. And if one factors in the Dockery addition, it could be more beneficial than expected from a KA transaction. 

What really sticks out to me in this clip is that the staff is very determined to change the mix on this team. It's just not getting better players as it is getting different players on this roster. This should be an indication that deals will be made this offseason. 

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

There are competing views on whether Pegula is too involved or disengaged. This video seems to want to dispel the notion that he is disengaged. And yet, it provides evidence that he is a meddler to those who think he is too involved. I haven’t watched such videos for other teams, assuming other teams produce similar content. Do other owners sit in on such discussions?  Is Pegula unique?  

The video, to me, displayed odd editorial choices. 

I have a different interpretation on the Pegula involvement from the clip. Maybe he did meddle before, but I don't think that is the case now. The owner wants to be informed in what's going on and what the staff is doing. KA may not be the most astute hockey person in the business but he is wise enough to keep the owner informed so that he will not be surprised when something is proposed to him. Is more attention given to this particular owner than other owners? Yes. But that doesn't mean that he is dictating any particular action. 

[LGR4GM]

34 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I have a different interpretation on the Pegula involvement from the clip. Maybe he did meddle before, but I don't think that is the case now. The owner wants to be informed in what's going on and what the staff is doing. KA may not be the most astute hockey person in the business but he is wise enough to keep the owner informed so that he will not be surprised when something is proposed to him. Is more attention given to this particular owner than other owners? Yes. But that doesn't mean that he is dictating any particular action. 

There's multiple reports he had to approve of Jokiharju for a 4th trade. Pegula is not involved enough to know hockey but still thinks he should chime in on a trade of a 3rd pairing defender.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

 

Marketing fluff but what I see: 

Adams does lots of catering to Terry.  Ok, he is involved and he is the owner. 

Adams is a consensus builder, but how do they handle objecting opinions we don't see that here. 

Ruff wants players that change the culture.   Appert likes Norris.  Lindy comfortable that he is a 1C/2C.  

The rest if the guys playing with laptops, pretending they get a vote. 

Terry was 100% comfortable, that is so nice.  

Adams congratulates himself for making "nearly impossible" hockey trades.  

 

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Marketing fluff but what I see: 

Adams does lots of catering to Terry.  Ok, he is involved and he is the owner. 

Adams is a consensus builder, but how do they handle objecting opinions we don't see that here. 

Ruff wants players that change the culture.   Appert likes Norris.  Lindy comfortable that he is a 1C/2C.  

The rest if the guys playing with laptops, pretending they get a vote. 

Terry was 100% comfortable, that is so nice.  

Adams congratulates himself for making "nearly impossible" hockey trades.  

 

After watching several of these, I'm always struck with the fact you never hear Sam Ventura's voice.

It has to be a deliberate editing choice, likely to due to proprietary information.

It leaves the impact of analytics on the Sabres choices an open question and a big hole in their process.

[bob_sauve28]

16 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

 

Ruff wants players that change the culture.    

 

 

Glad to see. Makes me think JJP and Quinn will be shipped out. 

On a cautionary note, wasn't Samson shipped out as a culture change move? 

[Mr Peabody]

What stuck out to me is the “building block” along with Dahlin.  Probably nothing but only one current player named? 

[dudacek]

Just now, bob_sauve28 said:

 

On a cautionary note, wasn't Samson shipped out as a culture change move? 

No. He was s hipped out because he told the team he was not going to be re-signing.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Mr Peabody said:

What stuck out to me is the “building block” along with Dahlin.  Probably nothing but only one current player named? 

Well, in fairness, the only truly "untradeable" player on the roster is Dahlin.

[Pimlach]

3 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Glad to see. Makes me think JJP and Quinn will be shipped out. 

On a cautionary note, wasn't Samson shipped out as a culture change move? 

Reinhart wanted out when he saw another rebuild coming and the Eichel injury situation unfolding.  He did the one year extension prior to that year, and then wanted out.  

Some people may have said culture changes were needed when the narrative was Eichel was a bad boy, so Reinhart by association must be one too.   Of course both players have matured and disproved all of that.  

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

There's multiple reports he had to approve of Jokiharju for a 4th trade. Pegula is not involved enough to know hockey but still thinks he should chime in on a trade of a 3rd pairing defender.

He wasn’t going to say no if the front office wanted him dealt and it wasn’t going to cost appreciable more or less. The owner wants to play hockey boss with his toy. He’s the primary reason why he presides over a ridiculed and scorned franchise. Aren’t you aware that clowns act sillily? No one in the business takes him seriously.