Kevyn and Don, should we really expect more after four years?

[LGR4GM]

Just now, sabremike said:

Sabres have missed the playoffs for 13 seasons and counting. The single worst team in the history of pro sports (1962 Mets) won the World Series in their 8th season. The idea that a half decade of being a league punching bag is in any way acceptable is completely ridiculous.

This. 

[Believer]

Granato can be fired based on his four year record.

I would fire him on his failure as a leader.

The fact he allowed his team to go more than a game or two without acknowledging the fans after a win purely because they didn’t like the chants to replace him was a disgrace. Granato should have apologized to the fans for his team’s behavior. Period. It would have sent the right message to the fans and the players.

[Archie Lee]

20 minutes ago, sabremike said:

Sabres have missed the playoffs for 13 seasons and counting. The single worst team in the history of pro sports (1962 Mets) won the World Series in their 8th season. The idea that a half decade of being a league punching bag is in any way acceptable is completely ridiculous.

In fairness, there is literally no one arguing Sabre fans should be happy or accepting of 13 straight years out of the playoffs. The point of the thread, I think, is to examine whether growing discontent with Adams and Granato is fair or unfair in the context of what they took over and relative to what teams that were similarly positioned at that moment have since accomplished. 
 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Yes. We traded first line players for prospects. Let's trade those prospects, plus picks, for third line players. That's brilliant! 😒

Who is advocating for 3rd line players?  

Let Adams sit on his hands and take no risks.  Lets see how many of these prospects are actually good NHL players and wait another 4 years for them?   By then Dahlin, Tage and Cozens will have lost their love for the game and will be gone, and todays prospects can be the new Core.  

[Archie Lee]

31 minutes ago, tom webster said:

The point is that no one in similar circumstances has come up with a faster plan. Vegas was an anamoly that will likely never be repeated. 

I’m not entirely sure what all is encompassed in your comment that “no one in similar circumstances has come up with a faster plan”. I replied to this point earlier in the thread. Being more succinct with this reply, I would argue that it is incredibly rare that a team that is in a full rebuild starts with what Adams started with. The depth of age 23 and under talent that was already in the system AND that was acquired in the trades AND that was enhanced by an immediate 1OA (Power) is quite unique. Adams started with more than most. Quite a bit more in my view. 

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Archie Lee said:

I’m not entirely sure what all is encompassed in your comment that “no one in similar circumstances has come up with a faster plan”. I replied to this point earlier in the thread. Being more succinct with this reply, I would argue that it is incredibly rare that a team that is in a full rebuild starts with what Adams started with. The depth of age 23 and under talent that was already in the system AND that was acquired in the trades AND that was enhanced by an immediate 1OA (Power) is quite unique. Adams started with more than most. Quite a bit more in my view. 

I completely agree that he started with more young talent/high-end prospects than most, but I think it's also fair to say that he started with more baggage and dysfunction than most.

FWIW, I agree with those upthread who are fine with giving KA another year, but there is no question that this season was a failure on his part.  Also, as I've said many times, I'd like a new coach.

[LabattBlue]

14 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

Any GM you hire is going to sell the owner on a minimum 2-year window to get "his/her team" on the ice via trade/UFA (and likely 3 years). If the owner counters that the GM has one year to make the playoffs, the GM will walk away from the job offer.

Flip-flopping GM directions too quickly is how you get a heavy GMTM lineup replaced by an all-speed puck-moving defense JBott lineup with no continuity and another hard reset.

I didn’t mean the new HC & GM should be fired if they miss the playoffs in their 1st year.  Just don’t be like the current regime and run it back with an unproven and mostly the same team as the prior year. 

[tom webster]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

This. 

They have hardly been the league punching bag the last couple of years and of course loosing isn’t acceptable but the question is that given the available historical data is it reasonable to expect that anyone can turn any franchise around in four years? Like you and the original poster said, it took the Mets 8 years. Thanks for proving my point.

Edited March 27 by tom webster

[tom webster]

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

I didn’t mean the new HC & GM should be fired if they miss the playoffs in their 1st year.  Just don’t be like the current regime and run it back with an unproven and mostly the same team as the prior year. 

See I am in complete agreement with this only that I think if it wasn’t for the nine years prior to then we would be willing to give them a mulligan for this year. And for the record, to some of those up thread, I never said I was happy with the last couple of years. I do think, however, that history shows that we might have been expecting something that’s rarely if ever done given the current framework under which everyone operates.

[SabresVet]

5 hours ago, Believer said:

Granato can be fired based on his four year record.

I would fire him on his failure as a leader.

The fact he allowed his team to go more than a game or two without acknowledging the fans after a win purely because they didn’t like the chants to replace him was a disgrace. Granato should have apologized to the fans for his team’s behavior. Period. It would have sent the right message to the fans and the players.

The lack of fire on this team is alarming for a group that's been playing together for a couple years now.  Too often this season they came off as sleep-walking through games and the 0-1 starts demonstrated that.  

I don't think Granato is reaching them and perhaps that's not all on the HC.  He didn't craft this roster, although he had input.    

Either the right guys are here and Granato's hit a wall or the Adams has built the team wrong and Granato cannot squeeze more out of them.  The other possibility is Granato is not up to the task and the roster is full of unmotivated talent.  Because for every strong game this year, there were 2-3 they couldn't do anything right.    

Whatever the case, management is running out of time with the fans.  They've delayed making major moves and I'd hate for it to take a 2024 October-December run like they did this year to put them well behind in the playoff race.  

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

They have hardly been the league punching bag the last couple of years and of course loosing isn’t acceptable but the question is that given the available historical data is it reasonable to expect that anyone can turn any franchise around in four years? Like you and the original poster said, it took the Mets 8 years. Thanks for proving my point.

Condescending much? I never mentioned the Mets even if the other poster did. Historical data I cited you dismissed. I ***** hate this place because this is what everything becomes. Your comment is perhaps the perfect example. 

Thanks for reminding me. 

[LGR4GM]

26 minutes ago, tom webster said:

See I am in complete agreement with this only that I think if it wasn’t for the nine years prior to then we would be willing to give them a mulligan for this year. And for the record, to some of those up thread, I never said I was happy with the last couple of years. I do think, however, that history shows that we might have been expecting something that’s rarely if ever done given the current framework under which everyone operates.

You're selling, I'm not buying. 

Edited March 27 by LGR4GM

[tom webster]

57 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Condescending much? I never mentioned the Mets even if the other poster did. Historical data I cited you dismissed. I ***** hate this place because this is what everything becomes. Your comment is perhaps the perfect example. 

Thanks for reminding me. 

What historical data? 

[Thorny]

17 hours ago, SwampD said:

Cool. Great job. What does that have to do with how KA builds a team and what we should expect from them after four years?

 

On 11/3/2018 at 10:40 AM, Hank said:

I think there's zero percent chance of Skinner being here next year. He came here for the sole purpose of playing with Eichel to pad his stats. There's no way he doesn't go to free agency and sign for the most money he can get. We need to sell him at the deadline to the highest bidder. 

 

 

9 hours ago, tom webster said:

They have hardly been the league punching bag the last couple of years and of course loosing isn’t acceptable but the question is that given the available historical data is it reasonable to expect that anyone can turn any franchise around in four years? Like you and the original poster said, it took the Mets 8 years. Thanks for proving my point.

Yes, it’s reasonable

With all due respect your take is frankly absurd. Your question isn’t even “what was the expectation?” it’s “was it reasonable to expect more.”

Was it reasonable in year 4. Can you imagine if you had posed this question pre-season? 

“Is it reasonable to expect playoffs this year?” 

You would have been met with a chorus of boos and the exclamation it’s not just reasonable it’s expected.

You can turn tail and run from what we all know to be what the actual expectations are or we can avoid that sort of sad, hypocritical thinking 

 

16 hours ago, Night Train said:

Where did I say 3rd line players  ???   You're having conversations with yourself again. That way you're never wrong. Mental gymnastics. 

This 

Dude had to gall to post he’s “never wrong” on a platform it took me a literal 15 seconds to find a post of his where he’s glaringly off base.  

 

13 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

In fairness, there is literally no one arguing Sabre fans should be happy or accepting of 13 straight years out of the playoffs. The point of the thread, I think, is to examine whether growing discontent with Adams and Granato is fair or unfair in the context of what they took over and relative to what teams that were similarly positioned at that moment have since accomplished. 
 

The thread and this summation of it is even more drenched in gaslighting then those that came before, a new low. Saying “it’s ok to be frustrated but it’s not fair to expect better” is sickening stuff. 

The question posed wasn’t “what was your expectation” it’s claiming that not only is it ok to be ok with the process it’s unreasonable to think they should have amounted to more 

that‘s offensively narrow minded

14 hours ago, tom webster said:

The point is that no one in similar circumstances has come up with a faster plan. Vegas was an anamoly that will likely never be repeated. 

Absurd 

 

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Condescending much? I never mentioned the Mets even if the other poster did. Historical data I cited you dismissed. I ***** hate this place because this is what everything becomes. Your comment is perhaps the perfect example. 

Thanks for reminding me. 

It has changed 

[jad1]

53 minutes ago, tom webster said:

See I am in complete agreement with this only that I think if it wasn’t for the nine years prior to then we would be willing to give them a mulligan for this year. And for the record, to some of those up thread, I never said I was happy with the last couple of years. I do think, however, that history shows that we might have been expecting something that’s rarely if ever done given the current framework under which everyone operates.

A recent Athletic article mentioned that Granato is 7th on the list of coaches who have coached the most games without making the playoffs.  That's 7th in the history of the NHL, not 7th on an active coaches list.

Granato being on that high on the list even though he has barely coached 4 seasons worth of games, shows the short leash given to coaches who do not make the playoffs. 

Think about it, of all the seasons played in the NHL, by all the teams, there are only SIX other franchises who would be okay with Granato's record of incompetence.  In other words, 99% of other franchises would have fired this guy long ago.

So giving a mulligan to a coach who is that high up on that list is not the norm for NHL teams.  Asking Sabres fans to continue to be patient with a coach who has historically failed to make the playoffs, after the fans have endured the franchise's historic playoff drought is beyond the normal or reasonable expectation of any NHL fan. 

And before anyone wants to give Granato a pass because he is a newbie, he is currently the 6th longest tenured coach in the NHL.  

Adams and Granato aren't trailblazing a new way to win in the NHL.  By all NHL standards, they are failures.  Giving them a fifth season isn't going to somehow magically turn them into winners.

 

 

[tom webster]

38 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Yes, it’s reasonable

With all due respect your take is frankly absurd. Your question isn’t even “what was the expectation?” it’s “was it reasonable to expect more.”

Was it reasonable in year 4. Can you imagine if you had posed this question pre-season? 

“Is it reasonable to expect playoffs this year?” 

You would have been met with a chorus of boos and the exclamation it’s not just reasonable it’s expected.

You can turn tail and run from what we all know to be what the actual expectations are or we can avoid that sort of sad, hypocritical thinking 

I posed a question. I never said anything about being unreasonable to disagree, I doubled down by playing devil’s advocate but I certainly never said I was not frustrated, quite the contrary. 
I think it’s a reasonable argument and I’m not surprised it’s gotten such a angry response but I am surprised by some of those who seem infuriated.

Have a great day everyone.

[PerreaultForever]

I have given this some thought last few days and imo there is absolutely no question Granato needs to be fired. I've thought about the team and who is on it and where they are in their development and you can look at things one of 3 ways. 1) The team has the players/talent to make the playoffs but the coaching failed them. or 2) the talent just isn't there, they aren't very good, and thus it's not the fault of the coach who has done the best he can with the roster, or 3) it's some of both. 

I personally think it's partly 3) but really mostly 1). The amount of talent we have is better than a lot of teams currently in playoff positions. Maybe if we didn't have the UPL step up you could say it's the goaltending but that doesn't hold. We have better goaltending than many of the teams ahead of us. We simply have a failed system, a failed team dynamic and a failed work ethic at times. It's the coaching. 

Nobody will convince me that Philadelphia or Washington have more talent than we do. They simply have better constructed rosters and they are better coached. They play hockey the right way. There's no reason, if properly coached, that this roster couldn't play like that with the added bonus of higher skilled players and thus, one would conclude, even better results than them. It's the coaching. 

I will give another example I heard today which some will hate as it's the Bruins again. First place in the division. They lost 2 games in a row. Montgomery has them doing punishing wind sprints in practice and they come back with a playoff style game to beat Florida. Montgomery said he didn't think they were playoff ready before that game and had not played up to their standard.   The difference is glaring and obvious.

 Adams should also be fired for 1) sticking with Granato, and 2) constructing a roster lacking proper leadership and balance. 

imo, given who is available, I think the best plan for the Sabres would be to hire Lindy Ruff as coach with some say in roster construction and personnel. Gallant is also out there, but maybe Lindy is the right answer for this team and it's history. Would he take the job? Maybe not. He has a chunk of NJ money owed so he can relax, but if I'm running that team I'd find a way. 

There's no obvious KA replacement I can think of but Pegula needs to step back and let a new experienced GM run the show. Just sit back and enjoy the results. Can he? Doubt it. But it has to happen. Sticking with the current plan will not lead to success. It's time to make the big change. Before it's too late and we see another tear down and another "plan". 

[Thorny]

9 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I posed a question. I never said anything about being unreasonable to disagree, I doubled down by playing devil’s advocate but I certainly never said I was not frustrated, quite the contrary. 
I think it’s a reasonable argument and I’m not surprised it’s gotten such a angry response but I am surprised by some of those who seem infuriated.

Have a great day everyone.

You specifically asked if it was “reasonable to expect different”. Not, “should we expect different?” (We all did pre-season, dudacek was chastising fans for not setting their expectations HIGH enough, that’s why I opened the thread with that response), and not even “is expecting different viable. “Is it reasonable” was the quote I was referring to. Ie: you are proposing it might be unreasonable to expect more. Not that you don’t, but get it: you asked if a position expecting playoffs was “unreasonable”.

No, is the answer. To answer your question: no, fans expecting playoffs are not unreasonable. Hope that helps 

Edited March 27 by Thorny

[Hank]

52 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This 

Dude had to gall to post he’s “never wrong” on a platform it took me a literal 15 seconds to find a post of his where he’s glaringly off base.  

I thought it was obvious I was referring to judging playing ability. Perhaps not? Good on you though for taking the time to scroll through my posting history and finding I was wrong on Skinner hitting free agency six years ago.  I doubt anyone else would care enough to do that. 

I like it in your head Thorny. It's spacious, there's no clutter, and the rents free. 

Edited March 27 by Hank

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, Hank said:

I thought it was obvious I was referring to judging playing ability. Perhaps not? Good on you though for taking the time to scroll through my posting history and finding I was wrong on Skinner hitting free agency. I doubt anyone else would care enough to do that. 

I like it in your head Thorny. It's spacious, there's no clutter, and the rents free. 

I absolutely will continue to call out liars yes 

Almost everything you say is a farce. You can call it rent free all you like: while I’m around this board I want to, and have no issue calling out your laughable BS

Edited March 27 by Thorny

[Hank]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I absolutely will continue to call our liars yes 

Almost everything you say is a farce. 

Rent free

[Thorny]

On 6/14/2023 at 4:26 PM, Hank said:

I like Levi as much as anyone and believe he'll take us to the playoffs next year, I also believe Saros makes us a cup contender. 

Wrong on player evaluation again 

7 minutes ago, Hank said:

Rent free

Edited March 27 by Thorny

[oddoublee]

3-0... premature to say the coach doesn't have the room?

[tom webster]

43 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You specifically asked if it was “reasonable to expect different”. Not, “should we expect different?” (We all did pre-season, dudacek was chastising fans for not setting their expectations HIGH enough, that’s why I opened the thread with that response), and not even “is expecting different viable. “Is it reasonable” was the quote I was referring to. Ie: you are proposing it might be unreasonable to expect more. Not that you don’t, but get it: you asked if a position expecting playoffs was “unreasonable”.

No, is the answer. To answer your question: no, fans expecting playoffs are not unreasonable. Hope that helps 

I asked a question, I gave some history, thought I’d start a conversation. I was proposing it might be unreasonable given the history but I don’t believe anywhere I said it was.

There was a time when that lead to serious give and take. I was one at the beginning of the year that expected more. I was guy at last year’s trade deadline slamming the table trying to explain that development isn’t linear and you should go for it when you can. 

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, tom webster said:

I asked a question, I gave some history, thought I’d start a conversation. I was proposing it might be unreasonable given the history but I don’t believe anywhere I said it was.

There was a time when that lead to serious give and take. I was one at the beginning of the year that expected more. I was guy at last year’s trade deadline slamming the table trying to explain that development isn’t linear and you should go for it when you can. 

There is a give and take. The give and take is an argument about pulling the plug now and firing Adams, or acknowledging that while we failed this year, it would be in our best interest to give Adams another go. I fall down on the same side you do, in fact, in this regard

But that’s not the framing. I’m sorry if it doesn’t matter to you but it does to me. Suggesting it might be unreasonable to have expected more to this point is below the belt type jargon