#freejame Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 1 minute ago, KC Scouts said: If "Z" plays 20 more games he lands #10 on all time games played by a Sabre surpassing Rick Martin, Mike Foligno and Ric Seiling. He should be treated with respect. He's always been a loyal hard-working player. Counterpoint: The fact this franchise has let Z hang around for that long is an indictment of the franchise. The same people loving on Zemgus are the same ones telling us how big of a deal it is to lose Johan Larsson. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 5 minutes ago, Believer said: Everything you posted is true and makes great sense… Think @JoeSchmoe’s point was by waiving Girgensons management would send a strong message more change is coming… “If you want to stick with this group, start playing the right way”… He could have singled out any one of several other names… Wearing the A, and as a longtime Sabre, and underperformer, Girgensons best fit @JoeSchmoe’s message… He’s getting minor minutes this season for a reason… And, you’re right, the team is fragile… It’s time they grow up as a group… It’s a business. Then start with Skinner if your looking to send a message The players would understand that much better, believe me on that. Buy him out and clean up your salary structure - drill a well Pegula. He is ultimately the guy that paid him this stupid contract anyway. Don’t put an A on a guy like Z’s sweater, call him a steady role model and a hardworking professional, and then use him as a message for underperformance. The players will hate this because it’s obviously a stupid idea. Trade him, sure. Eat $1.5 M if you must, just no theatrics please. The team is already a joke. Adams is the person who contributed the most to this blown season. He had a lot of work to do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 22 minutes ago, Believer said: Everything you posted is true and makes great sense… Think @JoeSchmoe’s point was by waiving Girgensons management would send a strong message more change is coming… “If you want to stick with this group, start playing the right way”… He could have singled out any one of several other names… Wearing the A, and as a longtime Sabre, and underperformer, Girgensons best fit @JoeSchmoe’s message… He’s getting minor minutes this season for a reason… And, you’re right, the team is fragile… It’s time they grow up as a group… It’s a business. IMO that just means you are an ahole organization. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 5 minutes ago, Pimlach said: Then start with Skinner if your looking to send a message The players would understand that much better, believe me on that. Buy him out and clean up your salary structure Fine by me… Would send the same message @JoeSchmoe wants to send… The message would be the point… “Country club is closing… If you want to be a Sabre, start playing the right way.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjd1001 Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 He skates hard. He's probably the second best forchecker on the team next to Tuch. And his scoring per 60 minutes... Which is the way that you evaluate someone with limited ice time... Isn't that much different than a typical fourth liner around the league. He's also probably in your top five penalty killing in terms of forwards over his career. He hasn't really lost a step in skating. Is he worth 2.5 million per year? No, but you're not up against the cap. For the role he serves. He's perfectly fine. I really do not understand the hate that some people have for him and the rush to get him off of the team. You're not changing this team's fortunes by changing up a fourth line Winger, certainly not one who actually doesn't cause you major problems day in and day out. Personally, as long as the team isn't up against the salary cap, I'd like him back next year if you want to still be here. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 18 minutes ago, KC Scouts said: If "Z" plays 20 more games he lands #10 on all time games played by a Sabre surpassing Rick Martin, Mike Foligno and Ric Seiling. He should be treated with respect. He's always been a loyal hard-working player. Agree. And for the record, Rick Martin was not treated with respect when he was traded. One of the nicest guys you can meet, and a Buffalo lifer, but he was treated very poorly before he was traded away. Great guy too. So far in the Pegula era we have very few wins, no playoff games, no respect around the league, no success at anything, a dark dump of an arena , no new hero’s, and down the road probably no alumni that will give a damm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 Tage, Skinner, Tuch, Cozens, Dahlin. Power, Samuelsson and more ALL having down years. Injuries. Coach and GM seem out of answers and seem like the top reason/target for change. But that's up to the absentee owner who keeps extending them blindly. Girgs seems like a funny way to pinpoint frustration. 4th liners are always replaceable but not the key issue. Fine. He, KO, Robinson, Krebs and others can leave for little to no return. Where are the replacements ? Rochester ? Juniors ? Any Vet FA culture guys that can come in and bring several of their friends with him ? How possible is that fantasy ? Maybe our highest paid supposed best players should quit making business decisions and play with a little more grit and drive. Too many avoid contact in a contact sport. That isn't a 4th liner with a role like Girgs. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthEbriate Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 The team has problems attracting veteran free agents who want to be here so now the proposal is to waive a veteran who’s been here and continues to play hard? Trade him to a contender at the deadline for a pick and watch him contribute just fine for a real coach and team that has confidence. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddoublee Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 9 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said: After 37 games this year, unless there are active members of the Sabres with burner accounts on here, the entirety of this message board is currently tied with ZG in assists for the 2023-24 season. the sabres are not paying him for offense. that they pay tage, cozens, skinner, tuch, quinn, jj, mitts to do that. i will give quinn a pass for obvious reasons. if the 4th line combined has 15 goals on the season, i will take it. that line, and z, is not the problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmoe Posted February 20 Author Report Share Posted February 20 If you can get a pick for him, fine. I just don't see a team dumb enough to do it. This is a case of fans falling in love with a player and not looking objectively of what he might have to offer a team that's better than us. I'll say it again... The only way we get rid of him is if we take back an even bigger problem. 35 minutes ago, mjd1001 said: And his scoring per 60 minutes... Which is the way that you evaluate someone with limited ice time... Isn't that much different than a typical fourth liner around the league. Amongst forwards with at least 300 5 on 5 minutes played, he's 365 out of 380. What playoff team is looking for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 Zemgus is not the problem. I’d go as far as to say he’s not part of the problem. His leadership and the game he plays is a need. If we move him (or KO) it will make the team worse in the short term. There is no Rochester player that can be brought up that will make the roster better. None. The problem is, KA set this up so Zemgus is THE leadership and defensive game focus along with KO. In that respect, Zemgus and KO are set up to fail. Just like the rest of the team structure, they didn’t get enough roster support from the GM. Those two are simply not enough to lead the charge, but that is exactly how KA set it up. You put those two on a good playoff team and the conversation will be about 2 more Ex Sabres that performed well in the playoffs. 4 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MISabresFan Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Weave said: Zemgus is not the problem. I’d go as far as to say he’s not part of the problem. His leadership and the game he plays is a need. If we move him (or KO) it will make the team worse in the short term. There is no Rochester player that can be brought up that will make the roster better. None. The problem is, KA set this up so Zemgus is THE leadership and defensive game focus along with KO. In that respect, Zemgus and KO are set up to fail. Just like the rest of the team structure, they didn’t get enough roster support from the GM. Those two are simply not enough to lead the charge, but that is exactly how KA set it up. You put those two on a good playoff team and the conversation will be about 2 more Ex Sabres that performed well in the playoffs. His leadership. I like leaders who win. 2 cents. Sorry but the above is an excuse for the two. They just don't have the Kahunas. They are sea level players, keep their heads above the water to stay alive and don't splash or make waves. I have seen leaders stand above and take over when upper managment /coaching falls apart. Athletes are no different. The barn needs to be gutted. Will ownership do the right thing and end the friendship. Edited February 20 by MISabresFan didnt read the whole quote 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjd1001 Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 (edited) 14 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said: If you can get a pick for him, fine. I just don't see a team dumb enough to do it. This is a case of fans falling in love with a player and not looking objectively of what he might have to offer a team that's better than us. I'll say it again... The only way we get rid of him is if we take back an even bigger problem. Amongst forwards with at least 300 5 on 5 minutes played, he's 365 out of 380. What playoff team is looking for that? Playoff teams aren't looking primarily to increase their scoring from their fourth line. Playoff teams are looking for a fourth liner that will play hard... That will kill penalties... And that will not hurt them when they're on the ice. Basically... Go out there and eat up 8 to 12 minutes a game without allowing any goals... While our top two lines can get a breather on the bench. In a lot of cases, that is exactly what playoff teams are looking for. I don't get how some people can look at this in such a linear way. If your roster is top heavy and you rely on your top 6 to 8 guys to score... Your bottom guys don't have to score that much. They have to be part of a fourth line unit that doesn't allow a lot of goals to be scored against you.... They can pin the other team in their own zone... While the guys you rely on to score are getting that rest on the bench. On my fourth line... I will gladly give up five goals per year that someone can score.... If they play hard and they play well in most other aspects of the game and they aren't the liability causing me to make up even more than five goals per year the other way. Edited February 20 by mjd1001 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmoe Posted February 20 Author Report Share Posted February 20 (edited) 35 minutes ago, mjd1001 said: Playoff teams aren't looking primarily to increase their scoring from their fourth line. Playoff teams are looking for a fourth liner that will play hard... That will kill penalties... And that will not hurt them when they're on the ice. Basically... Go out there and eat up 8 to 12 minutes a game without allowing any goals... While our top two lines can get a breather on the bench. In a lot of cases, that is exactly what playoff teams are looking for. On this crap team, only Yost and Robinson have a worse goals for % than Girgensons. He's also 7th out of 8th in PK goals EXPECTED against per 60 (min 25min). Only Krebs is worse. Edit: missed the stat was expected GA. Moneypuck does not have actual GA per 60 4 on 5. Edited February 20 by JoeSchmoe Corrected GA stat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjd1001 Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 Just now, JoeSchmoe said: On this crap team, only Yost and Robinson have a worse goals for % than Girgensons. He's also 7th out of 8th in PK goals against per 60 (min 25min). Only Krebs is worse. I'm sorry I don't evaluate how good a player is based on their statistics for a half season of play... And certainly I don't cherry pick statistics to only support my argument. That worked maybe in the 1980s when you were building your team in strat-o-matic hockey, but that's not the way player evaluation should work If we moved on from a player every single time some of their stats go down for just a portion of one particular season... And not actually watching them play and see they are still effective at skating, at forchecking, and don't cause problems in your own zone.... Well, then you'd have a lot worse of a team than you have now. But hey... If picking a whipping boy... And hammering away on him and hammering away at any single person who responds to you who disagrees makes you feel better, I guess have at it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 (edited) 1 hour ago, Believer said: Fine by me… Would send the same message @JoeSchmoe wants to send… The message would be the point… “Country club is closing… If you want to be a Sabre, start playing the right way.” The only way you send the message “country club is closing” is by closing it. Trading a player like Z is probably a good business decision, and it could be done as such. But it is not sending that message. You don’t make examples out of the wrong people and the easy targets. You want to close the country club - then Adam’s and DG should take the steps to close whatever this distraction is. I’m not sure exactly what the country club is, but the players should be doing nothing but work when they come to work. I do agree with that. You want them to play the right way - get a coaching staff that teaches it and demands it. It sure is not the way they play today. Girgensons is not the reason they play wrong Waiving Z and getting nothing for him isn’t going to change a damn thing accept to raise more eyebrows around the NHL. It’s another sign of dysfunction. He will get picked up, and he will be in a better place, and he gets all his money from the Sabres too. McDermott shut down the Rex Ryan country club. He got rid of the games, the video bull$hit and the TVs - all of it gone. Work is for work. He put up signs and he sent messages. He was and still is consistent. He brought in competent coaches and they made the players better, and they won, and they liked it. After awhile winning became a habit and now players want to play for the Bills McD also owned the 17 year drought. He said he wasn’t here for it, but once he took the job he owned it, because he said “it’s still there and the only way to end it is to own it”. Meaning he challenged them and they rose to it. None of players were there for 17 years either, but they listened. They ended it his first year with Tyrod Taylor and Nathan Peterman at QB. Lessons to be learned are right here. But they are ignored by the owner. Back to the Sabres - Based on this whole fan salute issue, it is clear that the vets on the team don’t own the drought, the coaches don’t own it, and the GM doesn’t own it. No wonder it continues and the team is in decline again. The kids should be challenged to own it and end it, but they are told by leadership that they don’t. This bad leadership is killing an opportunity for these kids to do something big and connect to the fan base, the opposite is happening Two teams with opposite approaches and owned by the same clueless guy. Ironic. The Sabres have sent messages like this before - We shipped out ROR, Risto, Eichel, Reinhart, Montour, Ulmark … they are all thriving now. The Sabres FO didn’t fix a thing other than get rid of the guys smart enough to want to leave. So go ahead and trade Z and KO, it’s really is time. I don’t see a problem. But don’t expect that will fix anything significant because the problems run so much deeper. The Sabres are run by amateurs right now. The owner is oblivious to it all. Edited February 20 by Pimlach 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 The OP is trying to send a message to play the game the right way by mistreating someone who has always played the game the right way. The Sabres' already bad reputation around the league would then take another hit. Brilliant! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 @Pimlach, you are fixated on Girgensons… Will say it again… @JoeSchmoe’s idea was sending a message to the team… He doesn’t value Z like you do, so he used Z as the player to make his point… You suggested Skinner as a better choice… @JoeSchmoe would argue with you, but I and most others would agree with you… It’s the message that matters… The country club is my euphemism for the unacceptable and unprofessional performance of our team this season… Starts with Pegula… and includes KA and his staff, DG and his coaches, the players and their leaders… They know how to play the right way… They know how to play physical and deliver clean hits early and often to set the tone… They know how to forecheck and back check and how to finish a check… They know how to go the the net and crash the crease… They just don’t do it consistently… It is a choice… It is not demanded by DG… Whatever distractions exist within the locker room, the building, the amenities, and the messaging… need to be removed much as you described McD’s approach to the Bills culture teardown… Frankly, think KA and DG have both failed to perform and should be replaced… It is time for Okposo, Girgensons, and Skinner to go as well… Doubt Pegula has the ego to accept his failure as owner… So, we are likely stuck with all of them for at least another season… 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, Pimlach said: The only way you send the message “country club is closing” is by closing it. Trading a player like Z is probably a good business decision, and it could be done as such. But it is not sending that message. You don’t make examples out of the wrong people and the easy targets. You want to close the country club - then Adam’s and DG should take the steps to close whatever this distraction is. I’m not sure exactly what the country club is, but the players should be doing nothing but work when they come to work. I do agree with that. You want them to play the right way - get a coaching staff that teaches it and demands it. It sure is not the way they play today. Girgensons is not the reason they play wrong Waiving Z and getting nothing for him isn’t going to change a damn thing accept to raise more eyebrows around the NHL. It’s another sign of dysfunction. He will get picked up, and he will be in a better place, and he gets all his money from the Sabres too. McDermott shut down the Rex Ryan country club. He got rid of the games, the video bull$hit and the TVs - all of it gone. Work is for work. He put up signs and he sent messages. He was and still is consistent. He brought in competent coaches and they made the players better, and they won, and they liked it. After awhile winning became a habit and now players want to play for the Bills McD also owned the 17 year drought. He said he wasn’t here for it, but once he took the job he owned it, because he said “it’s still there and the only way to end it is to own it”. Meaning he challenged them and they rose to it. None of players were there for 17 years either, but they listened. They ended it his first year with Tyrod Taylor and Nathan Peterman at QB. Lessons to be learned are right here. But they are ignored by the owner. Back to the Sabres - Based on this whole fan salute issue, it is clear that the vets on the team don’t own the drought, the coaches don’t own it, and the GM doesn’t own it. No wonder it continues and the team is in decline again. The kids should be challenged to own it and end it, but they are told by leadership that they don’t. This bad leadership is killing an opportunity for these kids to do something big and connect to the fan base, the opposite is happening Two teams with opposite approaches but owned by the same clueless guy. Ironic. The Sabres have sent messages like this before - We shipped out ROR, Risto, Eichel, Reinhart, Montour, Ulmark … they are all thriving now. The Sabres FO didn’t fix a thing other than get rid of the guys smart enough to want to leave. So go ahead and trade Z and KO, it’s really is time. I don’t see a problem. But don’t expect that will fix anything because the problems run so much deeper. The Sabres look to be are run by amateurs right now. The owner is oblivious to it all. I think you hit the nail on the head here. Teaches and demand it. The latter is lacking. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmoe Posted February 20 Author Report Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, Marvin said: The OP is trying to send a message to play the game the right way by mistreating someone who has always played the game the right way. The Sabres' already bad reputation around the league would then take another hit. Brilliant! 0 assists in almost 40 games is not playing the right way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Allen Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 I remember after his rookie season he was deemed an “untouchable”. lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 38 minutes ago, Believer said: @Pimlach, you are fixated on Girgensons… Will say it again… @JoeSchmoe’s idea was sending a message to the team… He doesn’t value Z like you do, so he used Z as the player to make his point… You suggested Skinner as a better choice… @JoeSchmoe would argue with you, but I and most others would agree with you… It’s the message that matters… The country club is my euphemism for the unacceptable and unprofessional performance of our team this season… Starts with Pegula… and includes KA and his staff, DG and his coaches, the players and their leaders… They know how to play the right way… They know how to play physical and deliver clean hits early and often to set the tone… They know how to forecheck and back check and how to finish a check… They know how to go the the net and crash the crease… They just don’t do it consistently… It is a choice… It is not demanded by DG… Whatever distractions exist within the locker room, the building, the amenities, and the messaging… need to be removed much as you described McD’s approach to the Bills culture teardown… Frankly, think KA and DG have both failed to perform and should be replaced… It is time for Okposo, Girgensons, and Skinner to go as well… Doubt Pegula has the ego to accept his failure as owner… So, we are likely stuck with all of them for at least another season… Well this thread is specifically about Girgensons and I will never support an idea such as waiving a player that is tradeable, just to avoid getting a "Bjork" or a 7th round pick. Moving on from Girgensons and Okposo is not a stroke of genius by Schmoe. Everyone here already knows their time is up, and it was probably up last year. To my thinking Schmoe is just making an attack on a player that doesn't deserve it, and any message that comes from waiving Girgensons just screams to the rest of the league - "look at the Sabres, they are still idiots". If we want to talk rationally, without all the message sending bravado, then yes - It is time to move on from Skinner and Okposo and Girgensons. They will not be part of whatever fixes this mess. This team is not going to the playoffs. If they can't trade Z and KO at the deadline then you simply do not re-sign them. The Sabre cannot afford to treat these players like crap, and then say we are trying to fix the culture. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjd1001 Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 (edited) 32 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said: 0 assists in almost 40 games is not playing the right way. If your job is to do other things then it certainly can be. If your job is to forecheck, keep the puck in other zone, then it sure can be. If you are tying up players on the other team on the boards while linemates control he puck, then it can be. If you are told that you are to go out there, tire out the other team, chase them around with a relentless forcheck, while your team's goal scorers are getting a breather on the bench, it can be. I guess the only reason it is not 'playing the right way' is if that is one of the things that you want to use to support your argument. Why would you just 'waive' a player to send a message, until you find out just what his value is on the open market anyway? Edited February 20 by mjd1001 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 29 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said: 0 assists in almost 40 games is not playing the right way. He does all the dirty jobs that no one likes doing. He works hard every second he is out there. Points are not the only measure of a hockey player. I will grant you that he seems to have fallen off a bit this year. In years past, I was confident when he was out there checking the other teams' top lines. Now, he seems more like an ordinary 4th liner. That may be part of the problem this year: we are not getting that 1 ultra-favourable match-up each game. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 (edited) 3 hours ago, #freejame said: Counterpoint: The fact this franchise has let Z hang around for that long is an indictment of the franchise. The same people loving on Zemgus are the same ones telling us how big of a deal it is to lose Johan Larsson. And the irony of that statement is we still don't have a 4C that plays that role better. Edited February 20 by Pimlach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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