A (hopefully) rational discussion on the State of the Sabres - what say you?

[steveoat87]

17 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Couple other things.

It's naive to say Terry bought the team bc he loved it or the sport. It's more likely there was a larger plan to establish pro sports bonafides in anticipation of Ralph's passing. "People think I'm a hockey guy. I'm a football guy."

I've thrown Terry a bone by saying maybe he's a good football guy. He has recruited in the sport. He was a power player at PSU who angled to get one of the assistants a head coaching job at Pitt. 

Everything he's ever said about hockey has been monumentally dumb, then they took the mic away.

The Bandits are an argument for Terry as a historically bad hockey owner. Unless TaroT tells me Terry's been in on lax decisions, I will say the Bandits were either dumb luck or the owner hired smart people, gave them resources and stayed the hell away.

Kind of like Dolan with the Rangers.  He realized he knew nothing about hockey and hired great people.  When he meddled in basketball, the Knicks were a disaster.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I outlined above the roster completion issues under KA.  

Now for the good news.

Goaltending - There is no denying Levi’s potential.  Since returning from the A, Levi has been good to great (the shoot out not withstanding).  If he continues near how he has played the last 4 starts we have our franchise goalie.  I have been a huge critic of UPL and I’ve outlined his first 20 games last season as a reason for caution.  However, he has given us solid goaltending in 7 of his last 9 appearances and looks like a solid long-term backup.  Potentially they could be our best tandem in 20 years.

Defense - Dahlin is a superstar but he needs help.  There are 3 other potentially good pieces on this roster in Power, Samuelsson and Ryan Johnson, but all are terribly inconsistent.  The good news is all are 21-23 years old and should, with the right coaching, continue to improve.  The issue here is coaching.  

Forwards - Centers - We have two legit top 6 centers in Cozens and TNT. Both need to learn to play 200 feet and win a draw, but there is no denying their offensive skill when healthy.  

Forwards - Wingers - Tuch, Skinner, Mitts, Quinn, Benson, and JJP.  Hard to argue with the talent of these 6 players.  If we were healthy and had a 3rd line center, this team would be able to roll 3 nearly as talented forward lines and create huge matchup problems for most teams.  The issues here are health (Skinner, Quinn), and inexperience (Benson, and Quinn).  Normally I’d have listed JJP under inexperienced given this is his 2nd season, but it’s hard to argue with his play this season.  He has been one our best forwards night in and night out this season.  The issue plaguing our entire forward group is a lack of commitment to playing 200 feet.  Mitts, JJP and Benson seem the only three in the top 9 who consistently backcheck.  

Forwards - Depth - Krebs is a huge disappointment.  He is traveling the Jost, Girgensons, Lazar road of a top 20 draft pick who never blossoms into anything but a serviceable depth forward.  I think we all had higher hopes for Krebs.  Greenway is honestly the only depth forward on this roster that I’d keep beyond this season.  Krebs, Jost, Z, KO, and Robinson should all be sent packing sooner than later.

The core of this team is extremely talented.  If a coach can get the forwards to play 200 feet and we get a little more consistency from the D and goalies this should be a playoff team even in the rugged East.  

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[Jorcus]

3 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

You've contradicted yourself by saying Terry hired experts and then let them sell him on a plan. It was always the other way around. Well, there was no selling, just instructing. The three approaches to winning were and are Terry's. The first two were disasters, and the third is off to a roaring start.

You do start again with an experienced GM or POHO. That man should be left unfettered to do the job.

I did not contradict myself. I feel that at Pegula is agreeing to plans constructed by people he has decided to hire. I assume he has been pitched alternate ones but decided to go this route. You feel it's different that's fine but that is you contradicting my statement not me contradicting myself. 

[Jorcus]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Couple other things.

It's naive to say Terry bought the team bc he loved it or the sport. It's more likely there was a larger plan to establish pro sports bonafides in anticipation of Ralph's passing. "People think I'm a hockey guy. I'm a football guy."

I've thrown Terry a bone by saying maybe he's a good football guy. He has recruited in the sport. He was a power player at PSU who angled to get one of the assistants a head coaching job at Pitt. 

Everything he's ever said about hockey has been monumentally dumb, then they took the mic away.

The Bandits are an argument for Terry as a historically bad hockey owner. Unless TaroT tells me Terry's been in on lax decisions, I will say the Bandits were either dumb luck or the owner hired smart people, gave them resources and stayed the hell away.

Maybe the day told us all about driving up to hill tops to listen to hockey on am radio was just a crock but sounds like a fan to me. As far as buying the Bills I doubt he had any insight into the Ralph Wilson estate plan which could have gone a whole bunch of different ways. If he saw it coming I think he would have saved the capital he needed instead of buying a Hockey team and wasting money building the center next to it. 

 

 

[Jorcus]

2 hours ago, steveoat87 said:

Kind of like Dolan with the Rangers.  He realized he knew nothing about hockey and hired great people.  When he meddled in basketball, the Knicks were a disaster.

For as much as Dolan has done well he has not had a Stanley cup winning team and he has been at it almost 30 years in a market with every advantage. Is he a good owner a bad owner, or an unlucky owner? 

[PASabreFan]

49 minutes ago, Jorcus said:

I did not contradict myself. I feel that at Pegula is agreeing to plans constructed by people he has decided to hire. I assume he has been pitched alternate ones but decided to go this route. You feel it's different that's fine but that is you contradicting my statement not me contradicting myself. 

For starters you believe that someone other than Terry concocted the plan to be Efficient and Economic?

[steveoat87]

1 hour ago, Jorcus said:

For as much as Dolan has done well he has not had a Stanley cup winning team and he has been at it almost 30 years in a market with every advantage. Is he a good owner a bad owner, or an unlucky owner? 

He is not cheap, which Pegula seems to be.  With hockey, he seems to be relatively hands off.  I would say that with the Rangers he has been generally good, but unlucky.  With the Knicks, he has, until recently, been a disaster.  When he hired Leo Rose and became more hands off, the team improved.  The team has actually been enjoyable to watch and hopefully, in the next few years, a true contender.

[Crusader1969]

4 hours ago, steveoat87 said:

I made this same point on the Buffalo Bills thread.  Look at the improvement in the Bills since they fired Dorsey.  If they don't want to fire Granato, identify the assistant coaches that are holding the team back and make changes immediately.

100%.  Even if it's just a scape goat.  Sometimes you need to make a move to stop players being comfortable. 
 

[Jorcus]

5 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

For starters you believe that someone other than Terry concocted the plan to be Efficient and Economic?

 I Assume Terry did that. Was Kevin Adams laying out a plan for him at that time? I don't know, but he knew the numbers and must have at least collaborated to get bumped up to GM.   

[Pimlach]

13 hours ago, Jorcus said:

 I Assume Terry did that. Was Kevin Adams laying out a plan for him at that time? I don't know, but he knew the numbers and must have at least collaborated to get bumped up to GM.   

Nope.  Terry came up with Efficient, Effective, and Economic when describing to the media why Boterill was fired.  Recall that JBot was given a vote of confidence as GM, Terry liked him and publicly supported him.  Shortly afterwards, JBot was fired for not wanting to comply with the new business plan, which looked nothing like a hockey plan.  

Adam’s agreed to carrying it out, Terry knew him and liked him, he was a rising star on the Business side of the operation, so he made him GM after an exhaustive search of ZERO candidates.   

Edited December 19, 2023 by Pimlach

[Cityo'Rasmii]

5 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Nope.  Terry came up with Efficient, Effective, and Economic when describing to the media why Boterill was fired.  Recall that JBot was given a vote of confidence as GM, Terry liked him and publicly supported him.  Shortly afterwards, JBot was fired for not wanting to comply with the new business plan, which looked nothing like a hockey plan.  

Adam’s agreed to caring it out, Terry knew him and liked him, he was a rising star on the Business side of the operation, so he made him GM after an exhaustive search of ZERO candidates.   

somehow, the "Effective" has never played out has it

hence, Adams our yes man with our current state

Edited December 19, 2023 by Cityo'Rasmii

[Sabres Super Fan]

On 12/17/2023 at 1:48 PM, Jorcus said:

 

Why do so many in here think Terry Pegula is a bad owner and should sell the team? Ok I know they have not won crap but that alone does not make him a bad owner. First things first. He bought this team because he is a fan of the sport. He did not buy it because it would help him in business or politics like other owners we have had. He committed capital to the area to improve it as a hockey destination. He has attracted outside hockey events to the area. I can not think how another owner would help do any of that. 

Pegula came into ownership with little experience, deep pockets and big expectations. Reality of sport team ownership has way of kicking sand in your face. All he can do is hire experts that sell him on a plan going forward and work within the structure of his corporation. He is on the third different track since his ownership has started. The goal is to win the cup nothing less. The win right away plan did not work, The tank did not work, so now we are on the build from within plan. I just can't see how we can scrap that and cycle back to another plan just yet. There are too many horses in the barn for this situation to not get better. Is Pegula a good Bills and Bandits owner because they win? How did he get so good at that? The answer is he is the same person. He has had better fortune with the other sports. It's all a crap shoot when it comes to ownership. You do your best to give yourself a chance but there is an element of luck to it. 

I am glad Pegula owns this team and the Bills. I have no doubt he wants this team to win as much as we all do. It's been a rough 12 years but the next 12 might be great.   

No because the Buffalo Bandits have won championships regardless of the owners because they are regular jobs Monday through Friday. The top salary is like $35,000 a year for a NLL player. So the NLL championship ring and extra playoff pay means something to the Bandits players to dig deep down to win championships. See Buffalo Stampede RHI Roller Hockey back in the day same deal.

The Buffalo Bills and Buffalo Sabres players live in fantasy land they get millions regardless and the long term contracts aren’t easy to trade when said player badly underachieves. Buffalo Super Fan what are you saying? I am saying the Bills and Sabres can’t be fixed if a fan is looking for a championship from either one of those two teams you’re going to be disappointed. Why because Buffalo is too small of a market economically and socially today with not much for the young athlete to do today to entice free agents to come play in Buffalo. You put Buffalo in the CFL football and AHL hockey Buffalo would win championships overtime because we are with our economic and social peers today. The worse thing Key Bank Center did was not finding local Buffalo investors for the Buffalo Blizzard indoor soccer and Buffalo Destroyers arena football because Buffalo could compete for championships in those leagues.

The odds are very long that the Buffalo Sabres and Buffalo Bills are ever winning a championship. Exist in the NHL and NFL yes winning a championship no. That is why I never understood why Terry Pegula wouldn’t just buy more Buffalo teams in minor pro sports to win championships for Buffalo and take the heat off his Buffalo Bills and Buffalo Sabres ownership he owns. If I am Terry Pegula I buy more minor pro sports teams for my Key Bank Center the more Buffalo teams one owns the odds are in your favor to win a championship for Buffalo. I wouldn’t be fooling around in Rochester. My goodness the Buffalo Blizzard and Buffalo Destroyers outdraw the Rochester Knighthawks. The Rochester Americans never drew huge crowds like the Buffalo Blizzard or the Buffalo Destroyers. Yes I get it part of that is our arena is much larger capacity wise but still you’re not drawing 12,000 plus to Rochester sports games today in my opinion. Go Sabres! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[Mango]

On 12/17/2023 at 1:48 PM, Jorcus said:

 

Why do so many in here think Terry Pegula is a bad owner and should sell the team? Ok I know they have not won crap but that alone does not make him a bad owner. First things first. He bought this team because he is a fan of the sport. He did not buy it because it would help him in business or politics like other owners we have had. He committed capital to the area to improve it as a hockey destination. He has attracted outside hockey events to the area. I can not think how another owner would help do any of that. 

Pegula came into ownership with little experience, deep pockets and big expectations. Reality of sport team ownership has way of kicking sand in your face. All he can do is hire experts that sell him on a plan going forward and work within the structure of his corporation. He is on the third different track since his ownership has started. The goal is to win the cup nothing less. The win right away plan did not work, The tank did not work, so now we are on the build from within plan. I just can't see how we can scrap that and cycle back to another plan just yet. There are too many horses in the barn for this situation to not get better. Is Pegula a good Bills and Bandits owner because they win? How did he get so good at that? The answer is he is the same person. He has had better fortune with the other sports. It's all a crap shoot when it comes to ownership. You do your best to give yourself a chance but there is an element of luck to it. 

I am glad Pegula owns this team and the Bills. I have no doubt he wants this team to win as much as we all do. It's been a rough 12 years but the next 12 might be great.   

Good intentions, bad intentions, whatever, it really doesn't matter at all. 

When he bought the Sabres they had 99.9% average attendance and had the 4th highest points percentage in league history. We were by far the best franchise to never win a cup and it isn't even a little close.

Since purchasing the team the Sabres have the worst attendance to capacity in the league (71%). In the 10+ years Terry has owned the team he erased 40+ years of overall good credit and plummeted the teams points percentage from 4th to 12th in league history. During his tenure the Buffalo Sabres have the worst win percentage in the league during that time.

For perspective, in order to reverse that damage in the same time frame he drowned this franchise, a Terry Pegula lead Sabres would have to go on a 10 year tear that the league has never seen. Averaging close to .700 point percentage for a full decade. 

There is no possible way that anybody can be considered to be doing a good job with those results. Zero. That isn't happenstance. There is no "he is a good owner who just happened to hire the wrong people". 

If I had to choose this team under Terry or no team at all, sure I take Terry. But that's sort of like choosing between having my legs amputated and death. 

 

[msw2112]

Despite the rough several years, I am OK with Pegula continuing to own the team.  The Bills are one of the better franchises in the NFL because they have good people in place.  Perhaps Pegula was simply lucky to get good people on his 2nd or 3rd try, rather than 5th or 6th with the Sabres.  Time will tell if Adams and Granato are the right people for the Sabres.  We've certainly seen worse.   They are not incompetent and they are not bumbling idiots.  They are certainly good enough to draft and develop good players and put a competitive team on the ice.   Whether than can get a team into the playoffs with a chance to advance is yet to be seen.  It was all progress through last year, and this year they've taken a step back.  As a fan, I'm willing to give these guys the rest of the season to see what happens.  I think the plan to build slowly through the draft, and rewarding promising talented young players with reasonable deals early, based on a combination of production and potential is a sound one.  They probably need to infuse a bit more veteran talent with some grit.  I like Granato as a person and as a coach, but I am starting to wonder if he's the guy to get them past where they are now.

Edited December 20, 2023 by msw2112

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, msw2112 said:

Despite the rough several years, I am OK with Pegula continuing to own the team.  The Bills are one of the better franchises in the NFL because they have good people in place.  Perhaps Pegula was simply lucky to get good people on his 2nd or 3rd try, rather than 5th or 6th with the Sabres.  Time will tell if Adams and Granato are the right people for the Sabres.  We've certainly seen worse.   They are not incompetent and they are not bumbling idiots.  They are certainly good enough to draft and develop good players and put a competitive team on the ice.   Whether than can get a team into the playoffs with a chance to advance is yet to be seen.  It was all progress through last year, and this year they've taken a step back.  As a fan, I'm willing to give these guys the rest of the season to see what happens.  I think the plan to build slowly through the draft, and rewarding promising talented young players with reasonable deals early, based on a combination of production and potential is a sound one.  They probably need to infuse a bit more veteran talent with some grit.  I like Granato as a person and as a coach, but I am starting to wonder if he's the guy to get them past where they are now.

1st bolded- this didn't age well.

2nd bolded - That is every team's plan. Every single team. I don't know why people bring this up with the Sabres as if it is a novel idea.

[zow2]

Pegula got very lucky Mcdermott and Beane worked out the way they have. But i give Pegs full credit for interviewing and hiring them.

He needs to sell the Sabres.  They have been nothing but crap since he’s owned them. absolute garbage. and the arena needs upkeep repairs asap

[Spoonman]

After the 9-4 blowout v Jackets.

NOW WHAT? 

[Carmel Corn]

1 minute ago, Spoonman said:

After the 9-4 blowout v Jackets.

NOW WHAT? 

How about a 10-0 blowout against the Leafs with Comrie in net for part of this one?  Sadly, part of me wants to see this as the only path to REAL change has to once again start with complete failure and utter embarrassment.

[Night Train]

[inkman]

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

To paraphrase from Mel Brooks:

Our Team is turning into sh______t!

Edited December 20, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[Quint]

 

[msw2112]

19 hours ago, SwampD said:

1st bolded- this didn't age well.

2nd bolded - That is every team's plan. Every single team. I don't know why people bring this up with the Sabres as if it is a novel idea.

I agree that the Sabres were terrible last night and were not competitive.  I was at the game in Arizona and they were competitive and controlled most of the play, even though they didn't get the win.  They certainly were competitive in Las Vegas.  Regardless of the performance on the ice this season, it still doesn't change my impression about ownership.  The team might need a new coach and/or GM.  I just don't buy the notion that Pegula's "meddling" is the reason the team is bad on the ice.  If he gets the right GM/Coach combination, the franchise will be fine, just like the Bills.  It took the Bills 17 years and the Sabres are getting into that territory.  I remain steadfast in that the devil you know is better than the one you don't.  If Pegula sells the team, you might see the team in Salt Lake City, Houston, Kansas City, Quebec City or somewhere else.  I'm willing to take my chances on Terry finding the right GM/Coach combination versus him selling the team,  as long and painful as it might be.  With patience, Botterill might have been a decent GM (many of our better players now are Botterill acquisitions), but he did not find the right coach.  The Kreuger hire did him in.

I disagree that every team's plan is the same as the Sabres plan "to build slowly through the draft, and rewarding promising talented young players with reasonable deals early, based on a combination of production and potential."  Many teams trade draft picks and young players for veterans.  Many teams spend big in free agency to fill out their roster; the Sabres do not.  The Sabres have been very deliberate, to a fault, in hoarding draft picks and young players.  They are handing out high-mid-range contracts to their young "stars" much earlier than other teams typically do, in an effort to lock in the right guys on cost-effective long-term deals.  I'm not saying that it's going to work, but it's definitely a strategy that differs from what most teams do.

Edited December 20, 2023 by msw2112

[inkman]

On 12/17/2023 at 12:37 PM, Quint said:

I was listening to a discussion about other teams' cultures, I forgot where... Teams like Chicago, NJ, NYR and others have HOF players come back in meaningful roles with their organizations and make accountability an issue by projecting their sheer excellence in the room. The Sabres on the other hand don't seem to have any coaches that carry weight in the room. The last one was Ruff but that model was abandoned. We've discussed guys like Matt Ellis, who has never led a PP and was a mediocre player, leading our team into the abyss. He might know what to say but as for motivating these guys to be a Sabre...he was a journeyman with no particular shine or reputation to him.

I always wondered why Gilbert Perreault has never had a meaningful role with the team. Could he not be a better PP coach than Ellis? Is it because he still has poor command of the English language? Is it because he just relied on instinct and he can't explain instinct to players? (The story Danny Gare told about him...Danny once asked for help on his moves and Gilbert said: "Danny, I don't know how to do dem, I just do dem.") Does he have personal problems? I know Gilbert has been on and off with the organization but why was he never given a chance? Just singing at certain games is a real shameful waste of talent. There are other ex-Sabre greats like Hasek, Andreychuk, Peca, Dudley, Luce, Ramsey, Meehan,  and many more who might make the Sabres players more accountable and more Sabre-like, as in recapturing past pride and success.

As we have discussed many times, the Sabres organization used to have pride in being a tough out as a small market. Before Pegula, the Sabres were a very respectable franchise, and were fourth in all-time winning percentage among all NHL teams. The Pegula era has dropped them to 12th. Maybe Pegula by his being the Hindenburg of Hockey has thrown any kind of hope of progress out the window. 

The best I can offer at this point is if Pegula sells the team.

Projecting their sheer excellence?  😀

[Marvin]

As I live in an unfortunately real world, the Sabres need 2 coaches: 1 for the power play and 1 for team defence.  Whomever they have now are not working.  They can reassign the other guys as NHL scouts for all I care.  They really, really need a guy who can teach defencive zone awareness to the forwards in the worst way.  I am sick and tired of the forwards routine screw-ups on everything to do with defencive zone play, including on the backcheck.

I don't care about how much Jokiharu wants to be with Power; that pair must be split.  Indeed, I would look at moving Jokiharu for a more boring, less offensively gifted veteran RHD to a team that needs someone like him.  Heck, I would consider a pending UFA.

I think the idea of trading someone popular might really wake these guys up and, although my sentimental side is upset that I will say it, I think a sideways trade of Girgensons to a contender would be a real wake-up call.