It Is Time: Fire the GM, the Coaching Staff, get some experience in here. Fans deserve better!!!

[...]

2 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

This thread is painful.

Maybe some think that the coach should be fired for having the team at NHL 500 and just a nose under @deluca67 500.

Bottom line is it will not happen during the season.

Rant and rave all you want, but it will not help.

No, I think the frustration is that the team:

1. is not trending, even slowly, above .500
2. has lost its ability to score
3. no longer seems to be able to pass
4. with a few exceptions, seems afraid to take the puck to the net
5. takes way too many penalties
6. is back to resorting to dump-n-chase
7. incurs too many turn-overs and lacks the ability to retain possession
8. has a horrible record at home

All in a year where the stated objective is to make the playoffs. When last year we lost out by 1 point (and 1 game) therefore reinforcing the common sense reasoning that every game/point counts. The latter, especially, should imbue the team with a sense of urgency but we are not seeing that translated to their play.

All of these items ostensibly can be addressed through coaching.

 

[Scottysabres]

9 minutes ago, ... said:

No, I think the frustration is that the team:

1. is not trending, even slowly, above .500
2. has lost its ability to score
3. no longer seems to be able to pass
4. with a few exceptions, seems afraid to take the puck to the net
5. takes way too many penalties
6. is back to resorting to dump-n-chase
7. incurs too many turn-overs and lacks the ability to retain possession
8. has a horrible record at home

All in a year where the stated objective is to make the playoffs. When last year we lost out by 1 point (and 1 game) therefore reinforcing the common sense reasoning that every game/point counts. The latter, especially, should imbue the team with a sense of urgency but we are not seeing that translated to their play.

All of these items ostensibly can be addressed through coaching.

 

This was a well articulated post.

[MISabresFan]

I think people have memories - like the last 12 years.  With the current pace, the Sabres end up with 82 points.  To hit 100  need to average 1.26 points per game the rest of the way.  3 points behind the goal.  

[Taro T]

27 minutes ago, ... said:

No, I think the frustration is that the team:

1. is not trending, even slowly, above .500
2. has lost its ability to score
3. no longer seems to be able to pass
4. with a few exceptions, seems afraid to take the puck to the net
5. takes way too many penalties
6. is back to resorting to dump-n-chase
7. incurs too many turn-overs and lacks the ability to retain possession
8. has a horrible record at home

All in a year where the stated objective is to make the playoffs. When last year we lost out by 1 point (and 1 game) therefore reinforcing the common sense reasoning that every game/point counts. The latter, especially, should imbue the team with a sense of urgency but we are not seeing that translated to their play.

All of these items ostensibly can be addressed through coaching.

 

They started 0-2 and were 3-5.  Since they've gone 4-2-1.  That would appear to be trending slowly above 0.500.  (They even WERE above 0.500 after 14 games.)

Even with being SO on Saturday night, they're averaging 3 GPG in their last 7.  (And were at 3.5 GPG in their previous 6.)  That would seem to indicate that they haven't lost their ability to score.  (But will 100% give you that they can't score on the PP to save their lives.)

They do need to be better at home.  No doubt about that.  Cutting down on penalties would help too, but expect the reffing being more consistent would be as big a boost there as anything the Sabres could do differently.

Most of your other observations would agree or disagree with on an individual player basis.  But getting the guys that are currently either injured or playing w/ a fishbowl back to full health would go a long way towards dulling those criticisms.

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, Sabres73 said:

I call 'em as I see 'em. I've been following the team for fifty years now for your reference.

As a follower of the team for over 30 years, I can perhaps see how my perspective would differ from yours in the sense that it’s “only” been now…half of my time period as a fan that has been marred by putrid league-relative hockey. Though, I would wager to say that a fan of 50 years could/should possess the deductive ability to understand why a team that’s been bad for a decade and a half might be populated by followers predicting more of the same. 

I don’t think 13 years is a short period relative to human years. Vulcans, maybe. It’s objectively a long one, though, for us. You know, just compared to the amount of years we get on this planet. Frankly it would be sort of weird to, after such a long time, for people to NOT be fed up with it and prone to expecting more failure. Almost as if those preaching otherwise are being disingenuous. Or, at best, undervalue the most important asset in the world: time.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorny]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I think, there's a group of ppl who think the plan should be X and since Adams didn't do X, they are somewhat gleefully up in arms.

So the argument is that there’s a group of fans who are so exhausted by always being bad that they’ve turned to the smaller satisfaction of at least being “right” about their predictions? Not exactly surprising. Why would we begrudge the fans clinging to something? The team could just…ya know…win… and then people wouldn’t be able to rail on their endless failure anymore and everyone could be happy

nothing is the fan’s fault. This is all definitively the fault of the franchise 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

So the argument is that there’s a group of fans who are so exhausted by always being bad that they’ve turned to the smaller satisfaction of at least being “right” about their predictions? Not exactly surprising. Why would we begrudge the fans clinging to something? The team could just…ya know…win… and then people wouldn’t be able to rail on their endless failure anymore and everyone could be happy

nothing is the fan’s fault. This is all definitively the fault of the franchise 

At no point do I blame those fans for the team being crap. I don't begrudge them either. You're adding words to what I said and changing the meaning of my post. 

Just pointing out that every time this team has even stumbled a hair, there's a vocal group being like "I told you so!" 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

This thread is painful.

Maybe some think that the coach should be fired for having the team at NHL 500 and just a nose under @deluca67 500.

Bottom line is it will not happen during the season.

Rant and rave all you want, but it will not help.

I think it does help. Venting helps. The fans can’t really do anything else. Imagine begrudging the fan who shows up with their lunch pail every day to this site in the midst of, not bad hockey, but a stretch of some of the worst hockey any team has had in any professional sport, over a decade long, who wants to vent their frustrations. Objectively, should the website not be an accurate reflection of the team’s achievements? These fans that are frustrated that still show up are the lifeblood of the team.

make the f*ckin playoffs 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

At no point do I blame those fans for the team being crap. I don't begrudge them either. You're adding words to what I said and changing the meaning of my post. 

Just pointing out that every time this team has even stumbled a hair, there's a vocal group being like "I told you so!" 

I certainly agree with this. Half the board takes a victory lap when we lose - but the other half takes a victory lap when we win, too. 

“Oh, I was told Steph Curry couldn’t shoot, and that the sky was falling, and that we couldn’t win? Hmmm?”

they feed eachother 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I certainly agree with this. Half the board takes a victory lap when we lose - but the other half takes a victory lap when we win, too. 

“Oh, I was told Steph Curry couldn’t shoot, and that the sky was falling, and that we couldn’t win? Hmmm?”

they feed eachother 

Like rabid wolves

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, ... said:

No, I think the frustration is that the team:

1. is not trending, even slowly, above .500
2. has lost its ability to score
3. no longer seems to be able to pass
4. with a few exceptions, seems afraid to take the puck to the net
5. takes way too many penalties
6. is back to resorting to dump-n-chase
7. incurs too many turn-overs and lacks the ability to retain possession
8. has a horrible record at home

All in a year where the stated objective is to make the playoffs. When last year we lost out by 1 point (and 1 game) therefore reinforcing the common sense reasoning that every game/point counts. The latter, especially, should imbue the team with a sense of urgency but we are not seeing that translated to their play.

All of these items ostensibly can be addressed through coaching.

 

You missed the number one root cause for much of this. 

Fix the power play and figure out how to win at home and all this tale of gloom and doom changes.  

[...]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

They started 0-2 and were 3-5.  Since they've gone 4-2-1.  That would appear to be trending slowly above 0.500.  (They even WERE above 0.500 after 14 games.)

Even with being SO on Saturday night, they're averaging 3 GPG in their last 7.  (And were at 3.5 GPG in their previous 6.)  That would seem to indicate that they haven't lost their ability to score.  (But will 100% give you that they can't score on the PP to save their lives.)

They do need to be better at home.  No doubt about that.  Cutting down on penalties would help too, but expect the reffing being more consistent would be as big a boost there as anything the Sabres could do differently.

Most of your other observations would agree or disagree with on an individual player basis.  But getting the guys that are currently either injured or playing w/ a fishbowl back to full health would go a long way towards dulling those criticisms.

Last year they were 7-8-0 after 15. The year before that they were 7-6-2. This year 7-7-1. YOY the trend is no trend.

In '21 after 15 they were at 45 GF. Last year they were 55 GF. This year they are at 44.

[...]

8 minutes ago, ... said:

In '21 after 15 they were at 45 GF. Last year they were 55 GF. This year they are at 44.

Another perspective: last year after 15 they were 7th in GF and this year they are 21st.

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, ... said:

Last year they were 7-8-0 after 15. The year before that they were 7-6-2. This year 7-7-1. YOY the trend is no trend.

In '21 after 15 they were at 45 GF. Last year they were 55 GF. This year they are at 44.

Right. People can willfully ignore the context and evaluate every season as if it’s in a vacuum, and if we miss the playoffs this year, next season when we start 7-7-1 we can hear all about how, in a vacuum, it’s early again. But the reality is that removing all of the context doesn’t make any natural sense: it’s not 7-7-1, it’s in actuality 7-7-1 at the tail end of 3 previous years missing the playoffs under this regime, and 12 missed playoffs under the franchise: the salient truth is that “making the playoffs” this season, after missing for so long was an incredibly low, incredibly generous expectation to begin with - that’s where the angst justifiably comes in from fans - it’s a mark they absolutely need to and should be expected to hit. It’s already a gracious expectation. If they are looking 50/50 so far on what’s a NECESSARY, gracious expectation, there is going to be angst. Justifiably. 

If they make the playoffs, the reaction by all rights should be, “it’s about time”. 

[Pimlach]

2 minutes ago, ... said:

Another perspective: last year after 15 they were 7th in GF and this year they are 21st.

What about GA?  

Could some of the system changes the focus more on "team defense" be taking away from GF?  

 Injuries are hurting some of the players like Tuch and Cozens

[Thorny]

There are receipts. The offseason is full of posts from some of the boards’ stand-out members that this season wasn’t even about making the playoffs, that we are actually ready to *contend* this season for a championship (which I cautioned against at the time). That would be the only reason you piss away 3 years in the name of development where the results don’t matter. (I mean, if you just want to make the playoffs, plenty of teams turn over on that goal in one offseason. We are aiming for something BiGgEr.)

I’ll happily settle for playoffs and have ardently clung to this position and remained consistent in this - but let’s not pretend that wouldn’t be the *bare minimum*

don’t make me pull up all the posts

Edited November 13, 2023 by Thorny

[SDS]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

don’t make me pull up all the posts

Don’t threaten you with a good time?

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, SDS said:

Don’t threaten you with a good time?

You know me very well 

[Thorny]

14 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

What about GA?  

Could some of the system changes the focus more on "team defense" be taking away from GF?  

 Injuries are hurting some of the players like Tuch and Cozens

Absolutely.

And it’s why we “were what our record was” last season, and not our placement in total goals. And it’s why there was never a cheat code available to us where we could improve without work from the GM. We couldn’t just “improve goaltending by improving team D” and render actual roster additions unnecessary. Not without a cost. We could pay for the outside asset, or pay by way of some of that goal total 

It ain’t free 

Ask Levi what Qui-Gon said. Credits may do fine, but you can’t pay in vibes

Edited November 13, 2023 by Thorny

[Taro T]

51 minutes ago, ... said:

Last year they were 7-8-0 after 15. The year before that they were 7-6-2. This year 7-7-1. YOY the trend is no trend.

In '21 after 15 they were at 45 GF. Last year they were 55 GF. This year they are at 44.

And it was right about now that the team was about halfway through the 0-8-0 stretch.   Comparing individual points in a season when one was so wildly inconsistent doesn't seem to make much sense.  Last year, like several others during the drought, the Sabres burst out of the gate guns blazing and then fell off hard.

This year, they started out a bit below where they need to be, but have picked it up a little since that start.  That is a far more common way for teams to come out of the gate than in years past and is likely a reflection of how other teams see them as actually being part of the NHL once again.  They weren't totally overlooked by other teams.  They also didn't go completely into the toilet when their top 2 goalies coming out of camp (based upon who they were playing out of the gate) and several of their top F's suffered injuries.  They couldn't overcome injuries to the D last year early in the year.

[In The Buff]

reading your posts about the fans being at fault for their expectations is ironically the same topic i just responded to in the BILLS forum.

Idk how anyone who has lived thru the decades of being a Buffalo sports fan & is still here, how they can be accused of being "entitled" is beyond me lol.

I just want to see the team that represents us & our city, play with some passion & work hard & dont make stupid mistakes that fans sitting a mile away can see on a nightly/seasonal basis. We should be seeing improvement as our core guys have played with each other for awhile now. Those excuses of "well theyre young" or "still learning", those dont work as well as time goes on. If that improvement doesnt come, then its the players that need to change or the coaching. As fans tho, entitled as we may be or not, we are simply just witnesses to what the team does. And from time to time, what we witness is well, horrifying haha.

[Taro T]

52 minutes ago, Thorny said:

There are receipts. The offseason is full of posts from some of the boards’ stand-out members that this season wasn’t even about making the playoffs, that we are actually ready to *contend* this season for a championship (which I cautioned against at the time). That would be the only reason you piss away 3 years in the name of development where the results don’t matter. (I mean, if you just want to make the playoffs, plenty of teams turn over on that goal in one offseason. We are aiming for something BiGgEr.)

I’ll happily settle for playoffs and have ardently clung to this position and remained consistent in this - but let’s not pretend that wouldn’t be the *bare minimum*

don’t make me pull up all the posts

Said management has stated that the goal is to contend.  Personally have said 103 and have stuck to it.  And from there, they'll be in the playoffs and we'll get to see how well management meets that goal of being a contender.  And if they don't meet the goals, they should be held accountable (even if they do meet the goals, they should be held accountable).

Stinks that they aren't at the NHL 0.600 they need to be at this point in time but if anybody expected it to be a linear trek to at least 99, well that never was realistic.  

Just see it as being way too early to panic over not being where they need to be.  REALLY wanted them to win that game in Pittsburgh for at least 2 reasons.  1, it means they only need to make up 1 point over the entire rest of the season to be at 0.600 like they need to be; and 2, it gives a competitor for a playoff spot 2 fewer points.  But, it didn't happen.  The silver lining is, if Sabres twitter is to be believed, the Sabres are actually possibly going to make a move or 2.  Will believe it when we see it, but the chatter is up.

They should be able to pick up at least 6, if not 7 or even 8, points this next 5 game stretch.  If they do so, well, they've either moved closer to where they need to be or at least treaded water while getting closer to getting Tuch and Quinn back and getting Cozens closer to back to full health.

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Said management has stated that the goal is to contend.  Personally have said 103 and have stuck to it.  And from there, they'll be in the playoffs and we'll get to see how well management meets that goal of being a contender.  And if they don't meet the goals, they should be held accountable (even if they do meet the goals, they should be held accountable).

Stinks that they aren't at the NHL 0.600 they need to be at this point in time but if anybody expected it to be a linear trek to at least 99, well that never was realistic.  

Just see it as being way too early to panic over not being where they need to be.  REALLY wanted them to win that game in Pittsburgh for at least 2 reasons.  1, it means they only need to make up 1 point over the entire rest of the season to be at 0.600 like they need to be; and 2, it gives a competitor for a playoff spot 2 fewer points.  But, it didn't happen.  The silver lining is, if Sabres twitter is to be believed, the Sabres are actually possibly going to make a move or 2.  Will believe it when we see it, but the chatter is up.

They should be able to pick up at least 6, if not 7 or even 8, points this next 5 game stretch.  If they do so, well, they've either moved closer to where they need to be or at least treaded water while getting closer to getting Tuch and Quinn back and getting Cozens closer to back to full health.

We are in the same spot in that I’ve posted recently that the math absolutely keeps playoffs a realistic possibly for this season 

I just disagree whole heartedly with the connotation of “panic”, and the way it’s being bandied about. If what people are posting about is “panic”, then yes I guess the panic is deserved - people should be worried if playoff are a full-stop goal this year. It’s a LOW expectation we SHOULD NOT fall short of. We *put ourselves in the position* of there being a short runway to consummate that goal by devoting so many years to build years with zero literal expectation. THIS is the cost: it’s year 4, you gotta convert on playoffs now. As a minimum. They chose this situation. If you put yourself in a position where you are left with minimal outs and the tenuous future you need to achieve looks to, at this point, be 50/50 and hanging in the balance, there should be concern 

It’s not the future we deserve that’s 50/50 and hanging in the balance: playoffs are the *minimum*. If you can’t make the playoffs in 4 years as a GM, I think you are objectively a bad GM

thats why there is “panic”. We are already well behind the 8-ball due to “time served”. Enough. Make the playoffs. They HAVE to make the playoffs. What’s up for referendum here isn’t whether Adams is a good GM: he needs to make it just to prove he’s not a walking farce 

it’s not just 7-7-1. It’s 7-7-1 in a season there is supposed to be no more runway left, by all rights.

Hockey wise, It’s not “50/50 we’ll have enough for our backpack trip through Europe this year, let’s see how it plays out”. It’s, “50/50 we aren’t going to have enough to pay the debt collector that’s coming for our legs” 

Panic.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Thorny

[...]

7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And it was right about now that the team was about halfway through the 0-8-0 stretch.   Comparing individual points in a season when one was so wildly inconsistent doesn't seem to make much sense.  Last year, like several others during the drought, the Sabres burst out of the gate guns blazing and then fell off hard.

This year, they started out a bit below where they need to be, but have picked it up a little since that start.  That is a far more common way for teams to come out of the gate than in years past and is likely a reflection of how other teams see them as actually being part of the NHL once again.  They weren't totally overlooked by other teams.  They also didn't go completely into the toilet when their top 2 goalies coming out of camp (based upon who they were playing out of the gate) and several of their top F's suffered injuries.  They couldn't overcome injuries to the D last year early in the year.

I see. So it's only a coincidence that at the same marker for the past three seasons they have nearly an identical record when in reality, despite what we are seeing, the team is indeed improved and trending toward a playoff berth. Given that; the appropriate action right now would be to hold and see how the team does over the next 15 games.

[Doohickie]

I think the problem isn't so much Granato as it is Kevyn.  He hung onto VO, he re-signed KO, and the result is two roster spots filled ineffectively when there is talent on the farm (I don't mean green prospects like Benson/Savoie, but players who have 2, 3 years in Rochester that could move up and contribute).  I'll give Kevyn an A on defense, a C+ on goalie, but so far he's rocking a D in the forward ranks.