Sabres Alumni and Team Culture

[Doohickie]

45 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You do realize that after 3 games the Sabres are 31st in the NHL with 40.5% FOW.  

You do realize that the first 2 games the Sabres were hot trash all around?

[Pimlach]

41 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

With practice and determination, a bad faceoff guy should at the very least become a 50% guy.  Sorry, but no excuse for being around 40%, let alone a lot worse. 

I want to be better at face-offs, especially d-zone face-offs.  

Watch closely, sometimes we win the draw and we still get beat at gaining possession, which counts as a face off loss.  During the big slump last year we lost two games directly by losing a d-zone faceoff, when a forward or d-man did the wrong thing and lost possession of a draw that we had first crack at.  

[Curt]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

With practice and determination, a bad faceoff guy should at the very least become a 50% guy.  Sorry, but no excuse for being around 40%, let alone a lot worse. 

Not everyone can be a 50% or above face off guy.

[Doohickie]

General comment on the alumni culture thing:  Recent alums are not the players you want influencing this team; their culture was one of losing and suckitude.  The experience of older alums is not as relevant to the players of today (reference remarks upthread about smoking and boozing, etc.)

There is a sweet spot, maybe the late-90s to mid-2000s, where the alums would be a good influence, but even they are a case of a couple of brief periods of success interspersed frustration and failure.

The original comparison to what the Bruins are doing isn't really valid in that the Bruins have had a pretty consistent history of winning or at least being a good team most seasons.  The decade of Sabres futility warrants wiping the slate clean and starting from the ground up with the players that are right here, right now, and Kevyn and Donny are doing just that.  Okposo, Anderson, EJo, are the "alumni" we want influencing and teaching this group of kids, notwithstanding the fact that Okie and EJo are current players.

When Kevyn traded Eich, it was a clear demarcation that the Sabres were cutting off the old times, the old ways, and moving forward.  At this point I think that's the way to go, and looking back is too fool of potholes, frustration and disappointment.  This is a new Buffalo Sabres. 

There are touchstones to the past (recorded RJ announcements at KBC, the Let's Go Buffalo chant, but even the chant has been given a new spin with the big drum and bringing in someone to "lead the charge" or whatever its called.) 

I've been a strong proponent of the blue and gold color scheme but in keeping with this being a New Buffalo Sabres team, I wouldn't even be that upset if they switched to black and red.  It seems to suit their personality better somehow.

 

 

 

 

Okay I'll stop rambling now.

 

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

The only recent group of players that can even talk about pride and winning is the mid 2000's group of Briere, Drury, Grier, Miller, Vanek, Pommer, Lindy, etc.   That was 15 years ago and some left unceremoniously.  Many of these players work for other teams now and identify with them.   Heck, Mike Peca and Phil  Housley are Rangers now.  

The culture of Buffalo Sabres hockey has been seriously fractured and replaced by losing - and more precisely by tanking, by self induced suffering, by bad coaches, unqualified GMs, a revolving door of change and commotion, young players wanting out, extremely bad ownership, and an overall acceptance and expectation of losing.   The Sabres alumni came out strong to greet and support Pegula when he took over.  

We don't have what the Bruins have, we did at one time, for awhile, but we lost it.  

Kevyn Adams and Don Granato are not perfect, they are both learning on the job - both are works in progress - but they know enough to realize that a culture change is needed, just as it was for the Bills.   So they are going slow and building from within (draft and develop), its their only choice.  Even with this team on an upswing, we are still hearing about trades being foiled because the person we want won't come here (Pesce, Murray, and probably even more). 

The culture change, and the winning, is coming but it will take much more than alumni support, it will be from the current core maturing and winning and setting a standard.  It will take an much improved level of stability and commitment in the hockey front office to keep the winning going.  

 

 

This really hits home.  One of the victims of the decision to tank and subsequent decade of failure is a fracture in the chain of handed down culture.  The What-it-is-to-be-a-Sabre line was broken and is taking a bit of time to be re-established.  

Hopefully it doesn’t take much more time.

[GASabresIUFAN]

What alums do we really want to be mentoring the kids anyway?  Who brings a winning culture? Grier? Drury? Briere?  Last I looked these influencers are now all NHL GMs.  Ryan Miller?  Pominville? Teppo? Vanek? Hasek? Older alums? Who would you choose?  

Craig Anderson seems to be hanging around (which is a good thing).  KA brought in Erik Johnson and that seems like a positive for the young D group.

As I mentioned earlier I’d bring back Gaustad because he understands hard work.  I’d wouldn’t mind Pommers and even Gionta (now working for Niagara U), because they fit that mold as well.  

[Weave]

50 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What alums do we really want to be mentoring the kids anyway?  Who brings a winning culture? Grier? Drury? Briere?  Last I looked these influencers are now all NHL GMs.  Ryan Miller?  Pominville? Teppo? Vanek? Hasek? Older alums? Who would you choose?  

Craig Anderson seems to be hanging around (which is a good thing).  KA brought in Erik Johnson and that seems like a positive for the young D group.

As I mentioned earlier I’d bring back Gaustad because he understands hard work.  I’d wouldn’t mind Pommers and even Gionta (now working for Niagara U), because they fit that mold as well.  

Yeah.  The idea of handing down culture is hopeless.

/s

[Curt]

56 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What alums do we really want to be mentoring the kids anyway?  Who brings a winning culture? Grier? Drury? Briere?  Last I looked these influencers are now all NHL GMs.  Ryan Miller?  Pominville? Teppo? Vanek? Hasek? Older alums? Who would you choose?  

Craig Anderson seems to be hanging around (which is a good thing).  KA brought in Erik Johnson and that seems like a positive for the young D group.

As I mentioned earlier I’d bring back Gaustad because he understands hard work.  I’d wouldn’t mind Pommers and even Gionta (now working for Niagara U), because they fit that mold as well.  

Yeah, Gionta and Pommer are guys I would be happy to see become part of the Sabres organization.  They both live locally, so it’s reasonable.

Id say Gaustad too, but I think he lives way out west in Oregon.

Tim Connolly or Jay McKee maybe?

Edited October 18, 2023 by Curt

[GASabresIUFAN]

23 minutes ago, Weave said:

Yeah.  The idea of handing down culture is hopeless.

/s

If you are relying on alumni visits to do it certainly.  I would disagree if you made the right guys development coaches and other members of the organization.  

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The only recent group of players that can even talk about pride and winning is the mid 2000's group of Briere, Drury, Grier, Miller, Vanek, Pommer, Lindy, etc.   That was 15 years ago and some left unceremoniously.  Many of these players work for other teams now and identify with them.   Heck, Mike Peca and Phil  Housley are Rangers now.  

The culture of Buffalo Sabres hockey has been seriously fractured and replaced by losing - and more precisely by tanking, by self induced suffering, by bad coaches, unqualified GMs, a revolving door of change and commotion, young players wanting out, extremely bad ownership, and an overall acceptance and expectation of losing.   The Sabres alumni came out strong to greet and support Pegula when he took over.  

We don't have what the Bruins have, we did at one time, for awhile, but we lost it.  

Kevyn Adams and Don Granato are not perfect, they are both learning on the job - both are works in progress - but they know enough to realize that a culture change is needed, just as it was for the Bills.   So they are going slow and building from within (draft and develop), its their only choice.  Even with this team on an upswing, we are still hearing about trades being foiled because the person we want won't come here (Pesce, Murray, and probably even more). 

The culture change, and the winning, is coming but it will take much more than alumni support, it will be from the current core maturing and winning and setting a standard.  It will take an much improved level of stability and commitment in the hockey front office to keep the winning going.  

 

 

This is what I'm talking about. We had it, we lost it, we need to get it back. 

The question is on the belief that it "is coming" or not. Chicken and egg. I'm not sure we can get it back the way we are doing it. Mike Peca behind the Rangers bench is going to bug me all year I think. 

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I've been a strong proponent of the blue and gold color scheme but in keeping with this being a New Buffalo Sabres team, I wouldn't even be that upset if they switched to black and red.  It seems to suit their personality better somehow.

58 minutes ago, Curt said:

Yeah, Gionta and Pommer are guys I would be happy to see become part of the Sabres organization.  They both live locally, so it’s reasonable.

Id say Gaustad too, but I think he lives way out west in Oregon.

Tim Connolly or Jay McKee maybe?

Pomminstein moved back to Canada. 

[LGR4GM]

I dislike this thread because it sits here and the main philosophy is that "we need this magical outside help" and it is the same reason I reject the idea of adding that one gritty guy to "protect the kids/stars". This team isn't going to succeed because of outside help, they need to find it within their own locker room. I think teaching them about what the team means to the city is good and Adams has done a lot of that. I also think having alumni around is good because the players see that connection but if the idea is that some great wisdom is going to be conveyed because we have these alumni hanging out and that will get us over the playoff hump, I don't agree. It is just another way to excuse failure when the truth is the team has to find a way, they have to do it themselves. No one is coming to fight their fights or win their battles. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by LGR4GM

[bg17]

12 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is what I'm talking about. We had it, we lost it, we need to get it back. 

The question is on the belief that it "is coming" or not. Chicken and egg. I'm not sure we can get it back the way we are doing it. Mike Peca behind the Rangers bench is going to bug me all year I think. 

Looking forward to hearing about it. 

[Curt]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is what I'm talking about. We had it, we lost it, we need to get it back. 

The question is on the belief that it "is coming" or not. Chicken and egg. I'm not sure we can get it back the way we are doing it. Mike Peca behind the Rangers bench is going to bug me all year I think. 

I don’t think you can “get it back” from where we are right now.  If it is team culture/identity, that’s been lost.  The connection is severed.  There is no one on the team who has ever been part of a successful Sabres team.  There is no continuity there to maintain.  It can’t be gotten back, it needs to be regrown from scratch.  These guys who are in the room now need to form it in their own image.  Having experienced leaders around can help to guide them, but no old Sabres player is going to do it for them.  The current group will build their own culture/identity.  It won’t come as something handed down from the past.

[PerreaultForever]

Just now, bg17 said:

Looking forward to hearing about it. 

I know I know, I'm getting repetitive on it.

Wish we had a new Peca on the roster too. That would change everything. 

[Curt]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I dislike this thread because it sits here and the main philosophy is that "we need this magical outside help" and it is the same reason I reject the idea of adding that one gritty guy to "protect the kids/stars". This team isn't going to succeed because of outside help, they need to find it within their own locker room. I think teaching them about what the team means to the city is good and Adams has done a lot of that. I also think having alumni around is good because the players see that connection but if the idea is that some great wisdom is going to be conveyed because we have these alumni hanging out and that will get us over the playoff hump, I don't agree. It is just another way to excuse failure when the truth is the team has to find a way, they have to do it themselves. No one is coming to fight their fights or win their battles. 

Dude, almost exactly the feelings I just expressed, phrased in a different way.

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

I don’t think you can “get it back” from where we are right now.  If it is team culture/identity, that’s been lost.  The connection is severed.  There is no one on the team who has ever been part of a successful Sabres team.  There is no continuity there to maintain.  It can’t be gotten back, it needs to be regrown from scratch.  These guys who are in the room now need to form it in their own image.  Having experienced leaders around can help to guide them, but no old Sabres player is going to do it for them.  The current group will build their own culture/identity.  It won’t come as something handed down from the past.

What you say is true, but I still believe in the mentor relationship. I think having guys who won as a Sabre and enjoyed being a Sabre in their time would have important messages and words for these kids who in many cases weren't even alive to see it or remember it. It's an element that's missing imo and I think that falls on Pegula and how they run the franchise. 

[PerreaultForever]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I dislike this thread because it sits here and the main philosophy is that "we need this magical outside help" and it is the same reason I reject the idea of adding that one gritty guy to "protect the kids/stars". This team isn't going to succeed because of outside help, they need to find it within their own locker room. I think teaching them about what the team means to the city is good and Adams has done a lot of that. I also think having alumni around is good because the players see that connection but if the idea is that some great wisdom is going to be conveyed because we have these alumni hanging out and that will get us over the playoff hump, I don't agree. It is just another way to excuse failure when the truth is the team has to find a way, they have to do it themselves. No one is coming to fight their fights or win their battles. 

It's not about "magical outside help" or "excusing failure" but rather reminders and images of what is possible. What was, and what can be again. We don't have enough veterans with any continuity to a winning era (it's been too long) and there's just not enough wise old wisdom or lead by example or whatever you want to call it so doing more visible and direct things with alumni would be an important addition imo. I think we agree on that aspect.

It's not the solution, but it might be a necessary additional aspect. 

[Curt]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

What you say is true, but I still believe in the mentor relationship. I think having guys who won as a Sabre and enjoyed being a Sabre in their time would have important messages and words for these kids who in many cases weren't even alive to see it or remember it. It's an element that's missing imo and I think that falls on Pegula and how they run the franchise. 

I think Adams has done a good job building strong connections between these players, the organization, and the city.

I understand your point about the potential benefits of having successful former Sabres around.  I’m not against it, but I think having guys with more recent NHL experience/success is more relevant.  Guys like E Johnson and Clifton, Anderson.  I do think they could do a little better with this.

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's not about "magical outside help" or "excusing failure" but rather reminders and images of what is possible. What was, and what can be again. We don't have enough veterans with any continuity to a winning era (it's been too long) and there's just not enough wise old wisdom or lead by example or whatever you want to call it so doing more visible and direct things with alumni would be an important addition imo. I think we agree on that aspect.

It's not the solution, but it might be a necessary additional aspect. 

There's alumni stuff constantly. Idk if you live in Buffalo but there are lots of things they do in the community and with the players. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

I think Adams has done a good job building strong connections between these players, the organization, and the city.

I understand your point about the potential benefits of having successful former Sabres around.  I’m not against it, but I think having guys with more recent NHL experience/success is more relevant.  Guys like E Johnson and Clifton, Anderson.  I do think they could do a little better with this.

I don't disagree with this. I just don't think he's done enough. I said a few years ago we should target guys from winning cultures like Boston, get them in the locker room, so Clifton is an example of that. Just don't think one or two guys is enough. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

There's alumni stuff constantly. Idk if you live in Buffalo but there are lots of things they do in the community and with the players. 

I don't live in Buffalo so I accept that I might be unaware of some of their events. I guess what I'd say to that then is the franchise has to do a better job of getting those things up on youtube or other social media and getting that out front and center more. Other teams seem to have a lot more out there. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

30 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Pomminstein moved back to Canada. 

Auto correct still works ... LOL !!

[dudacek]

22 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I dislike this thread because it sits here and the main philosophy is that "we need this magical outside help" and it is the same reason I reject the idea of adding that one gritty guy to "protect the kids/stars". This team isn't going to succeed because of outside help, they need to find it within their own locker room. I think teaching them about what the team means to the city is good and Adams has done a lot of that. I also think having alumni around is good because the players see that connection but if the idea is that some great wisdom is going to be conveyed because we have these alumni hanging out and that will get us over the playoff hump, I don't agree. It is just another way to excuse failure when the truth is the team has to find a way, they have to do it themselves. No one is coming to fight their fights or win their battles. 

"We need more guys like..."

We add Johnson, Clifton, Greenway and they play that way.

"Not those guys"

 

"We need to stick up for each other and play the right way"

Team jumps to the defence of Jost and Jokiharju after questionable hits, Dahlin, Clifton, Greenway throw devastating hits in 1st 3 games

"That doesn't count"

 

"We just can't play defence and Granato doesn't hold players accountable"

Granato benches Olofsson, cuts ice time to underperformers, team allows just 5 goals and 51 shots in its past 2 games.

"We just can't play defence and Granato doesn't hold players accountable"

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't live in Buffalo so I accept that I might be unaware of some of their events. I guess what I'd say to that then is the franchise has to do a better job of getting those things up on youtube or other social media and getting that out front and center more. Other teams seem to have a lot more out there. 

Why do they need to publicly push it out as marketing media?  Is it really that entertaining?

I think the Sabres marketing has gotten way better the past couple years when they started focusing on fun interactions between current players.

I thought you wanted the alumni stuff because it helps the players?   Maybe the Sabres just don’t think it makes for very good content.