GDT Islanders at Sabres, Feb. 15, 2022, 7pm, MSG, WGR.

[Weave]

51 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Not really trying to make a point about who initiated the tank.

More about how Murray executed it with no seeming thought or concern about the human elements; the messages sent to his golden boys and to those who weren’t afforded that status.

I agree that his focus was not on team building.  I disagree that it was his idea to build around a savior.  I think that decision was made at the top.

"The owner will determine the extent of the rebuild" -Darcy

Edited February 17, 2022 by Weave

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, Weave said:

I agree that his focus was not on team building.  I disagree that it was his idea to build around a savior.  I think that decision was made at the top.

"The owner will determine the extent of the rebuild" -Darcy

It absolutely was made prior to bringing in Murray & at a higher pay grade.  Did people forget Regier's "there will be suffering" and Ted Black shooting his mouth off which resulted in changes to the lottery?

Murray was brought in to make sure the tank was successful without being too successful & to remodel the Sabres into LA/Anaheim East.  He accomplished the 1st goal but failed at the 2nd.

[Doohickie]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

So, maybe it was the chicken & not the egg that came 1st.  Or is that the other way round?  😉

My theory, which is mine, that is to say, that I concocted:

Adams had been around the organization for years.  He observed the strategies of XGMTM and XGMJBot and saw things that he thought worked, and saw things he thought didn't work.  Long before taking the GM position, he'd gotten familiar with the Pegulas and they with him.  One thing he decided wasn't working was Eichel.

When he was named GM I think he went with a rebuilding plan to the Pegulas.  But they hadn't given up on Jack yet, and were still in love with Krueger.  So they prevailed upon him to do the "short build", pumping as much NHL experience into the club as they could, thus Staal, Hall, Eakin, Rieder, Sheahan, etc.  I feel like Adams never liked Krueger, but kept him on in deference to the Pegulas who at the beginning of last season still thought he was the answer, and all the players Adams brought in that first season were an honest attempt at a short build to give Krueger the players he wanted.  I think Adams told the Pegulas he disagreed with their direction but committed to honestly trying to make the Sabres work with Krueger behind the bench and Jack on the ice.

As we all know, Staal turned out to be over the hill, Hall disappeared, Eakin was especially abysmal under Krueger, Jack was trying to play through injury and nothing, I mean nothing, worked.  So Adams went to Boca after Krueger's Sabres had lost 12 straight with enough ammunition to justify Krueger's firing.  At that meeting, though, the Pegulas agreed to the deep build Adams wanted to begin with.  Prior to that Adams was "listening" but not actively shopping Eichel.  At that point though, he had the backing of the Pegulas to get the best deal he could for Jack.

The injury, obviously, was a wrench in the works of a potential Eichel trade.  But at the same time it made any chance of Jack staying evaporate.  If he could have played under Granato, seen the change in the team, and contributed to a turnaround, he might have been interested in staying and Adams in keeping him.  But without that, it effectively slammed the door shut on any reconciliation between between Eichel and Adams.  Even if Adams wanted Eichel out, there's a possibility that Granato could have convinced him otherwise if only Granato could have coached a Sabres team with Eichel on the ice.

Then we get to the surgery.  I think the feeling was that, on the one hand, it was the best chance for returning Eichel to form, but that as a procedure never previously done on an NHLer, it carried risks.  I think once the decision to move Eichel was made, Adams and Pegula agreed that they were not going to take that  risk with the chance of zeroing out Eichel's value on the trade market, and instead pass it on to the next team, with a potentially diminished (but still considerable) return. 

Even now, with the apparent success of the surgery, Eichel is skating with a potential time bomb in his neck.  No one really knows how robust the artificial disc will be.  If the disc does fail it could literally catastrophic for Eichel, perhaps even life threatening.  Once they decided to move him I don't think the Pegulas wanted any part of that.

So yeah, a case can be made that the team (Adams) initiated the divorce.  I see it as when Adams came in, he knew Eichel wasn't working out already, and whether that was on Eichel or on the way the team was built around him, the best path forward was to reset without Eichel... because of Eichel's history with the team up to that point.

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Not really trying to make a point about who initiated the tank.

More about how Murray executed it with no seeming thought or concern about the human elements; the messages sent to his golden boys and to those who weren’t afforded that status.

Who knew that ZFG radiated in all directions?

[Doohickie]

55 minutes ago, Weave said:

I agree that his focus was not on team building.  I disagree that it was his idea to build around a savior.  I think that decision was made at the top.

"The owner will determine the extent of the rebuild" -Darcy

Yes I agree with that.

I think the difference with Adams is that he came in with a clear plan, educated his owner and got him on board.  The previous GMs were content with carrying out the owner's directions.  Adams is intent on carrying out his own directions.  He knew as a brand new GM he couldn't turn things upside down without ownership support, so he started out following their directions and when it didn't work he finally got them to buy into his plan.

I joked a while back that Adams carried out a coup, seizing power from the ownership, but I'm only half joking.  I think he does have that power, but only because the Pegulas readily abdicated their judgment to his.  They are/were smart enough to realize at long last that their direction was not working and they ceded control to an actual hockey mind.

I'm not saying that Adams can do whatever he wants, but I think that among his talents is being able to get consensus from the Pegulas even when something would disagree with their instinct.  I think there's probably much much two way communication between the Pegulas and Adams than with any of the previous Pegula era GMs.

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

My theory, which is mine, that is to say, that I concocted:

Adams had been around the organization for years.  He observed the strategies of XGMTM and XGMJBot and saw things that he thought worked, and saw things he thought didn't work.  Long before taking the GM position, he'd gotten familiar with the Pegulas and they with him.  One thing he decided wasn't working was Eichel.

When he was named GM I think he went with a rebuilding plan to the Pegulas.  But they hadn't given up on Jack yet, and were still in love with Krueger.  So they prevailed upon him to do the "short build", pumping as much NHL experience into the club as they could, thus Staal, Hall, Eakin, Rieder, Sheahan, etc.  I feel like Adams never liked Krueger, but kept him on in deference to the Pegulas who at the beginning of last season still thought he was the answer, and all the players Adams brought in that first season were an honest attempt at a short build to give Krueger the players he wanted.  I think Adams told the Pegulas he disagreed with their direction but committed to honestly trying to make the Sabres work with Krueger behind the bench and Jack on the ice.

As we all know, Staal turned out to be over the hill, Hall disappeared, Eakin was especially abysmal under Krueger, Jack was trying to play through injury and nothing, I mean nothing, worked.  So Adams went to Boca after Krueger's Sabres had lost 12 straight with enough ammunition to justify Krueger's firing.  At that meeting, though, the Pegulas agreed to the deep build Adams wanted to begin with.  Prior to that Adams was "listening" but not actively shopping Eichel.  At that point though, he had the backing of the Pegulas to get the best deal he could for Jack.

The injury, obviously, was a wrench in the works of a potential Eichel trade.  But at the same time it made any chance of Jack staying evaporate.  If he could have played under Granato, seen the change in the team, and contributed to a turnaround, he might have been interested in staying and Adams in keeping him.  But without that, it effectively slammed the door shut on any reconciliation between between Eichel and Adams.  Even if Adams wanted Eichel out, there's a possibility that Granato could have convinced him otherwise if only Granato could have coached a Sabres team with Eichel on the ice.

Then we get to the surgery.  I think the feeling was that, on the one hand, it was the best chance for returning Eichel to form, but that as a procedure never previously done on an NHLer, it carried risks.  I think once the decision to move Eichel was made, Adams and Pegula agreed that they were not going to take that  risk with the chance of zeroing out Eichel's value on the trade market, and instead pass it on to the next team, with a potentially diminished (but still considerable) return. 

Even now, with the apparent success of the surgery, Eichel is skating with a potential time bomb in his neck.  No one really knows how robust the artificial disc will be.  If the disc does fail it could literally catastrophic for Eichel, perhaps even life threatening.  Once they decided to move him I don't think the Pegulas wanted any part of that.

So yeah, a case can be made that the team (Adams) initiated the divorce.  I see it as when Adams came in, he knew Eichel wasn't working out already, and whether that was on Eichel or on the way the team was built around him, the best path forward was to reset without Eichel... because of Eichel's history with the team up to that point.

Just how "honestly" did he commit to trying to make the Sabres work?  He entered the season w/ Hutton & an injury prone Ullmark as the "established" goaltending.  Tokarski & Johanson were their understudies w/ UPL & Houser in Cincy.  Realize he came "close" to getting a goalie, but the fact remains Ullmark who had never been 'the" guy was the only legit NHL quality goalie & he still might only have been of backup quality for all we knew entering that year.

[Doohickie]

Just now, Taro T said:

Just how "honestly" did he commit to trying to make the Sabres work?  He entered the season w/ Hutton & an injury prone Ullmark as the "established" goaltending.  Tokarski & Johanson were their understudies w/ UPL & Houser in Cincy.  Realize he came "close" to getting a goalie, but the fact remains Ullmark who had never been 'the" guy was the only legit NHL quality goalie & he still might only have been of backup quality for all we knew entering that year.

A valid point.  In my theory (which could be apologetic hogwash, I'll grant you that) I think Adams was following Krueger's shopping list and Krueger didn't think it was an issue.

Also consider:  The Sabres went through countless goalies last year and this year.  Even if they had a Real NHL #1 Goalie™ and the injury carousel was the same, it wouldn't have mattered.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Yes I agree with that.

I think the difference with Adams is that he came in with a clear plan, educated his owner and got him on board.  The previous GMs were content with carrying out the owner's directions.  Adams is intent on carrying out his own directions.  He knew as a brand new GM he couldn't turn things upside down without ownership support, so he started out following their directions and when it didn't work he finally got them to buy into his plan.

I joked a while back that Adams carried out a coup, seizing power from the ownership, but I'm only half joking.  I think he does have that power, but only because the Pegulas readily abdicated their judgment to his.  They are/were smart enough to realize at long last that their direction was not working and they ceded control to an actual hockey mind.

I'm not saying that Adams can do whatever he wants, but I think that among his talents is being able to get consensus from the Pegulas even when something would disagree with their instinct.  I think there's probably much much two way communication between the Pegulas and Adams than with any of the previous Pegula era GMs.

Murray was content following the owner's directions?  Really?  Mr ZFG?  Not seeing it personally.

Regier absolutely worked within whatever constraints ownership put upon him.  So will give you that one.  But that was the case w/ him from day 1 & he actually was oftentimes successful with putting good teams on the ice without necessarily having access to the resources his rivals had access to.

But didn't Botterill get canned because he refused to gut the front office?  How is that displaying being content w/ "carrying out the owner's directions?"

[Doohickie]

I dunno.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  Maybe I need to refine my theory.

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

A valid point.  In my theory (which could be apologetic hogwash, I'll grant you that) I think Adams was following Krueger's shopping list and Krueger didn't think it was an issue.

Also consider:  The Sabres went through countless goalies last year and this year.  Even if they had a Real NHL #1 Goalie™ and the injury carousel was the same, it wouldn't have mattered.

Claiming Krueger didn't want a goalie upgrade is flat out unsubstantiated speculation.  Considering Botterill reportedly had 3 potential deals NEARLY worked out to bring one in, it puts a bit of a crimp in your Krueger was both calling the shots & didn't want a goalie theory because that's a lot of effort to NOT try to bring in a goalie off your own volition if you're Adams.

And consider, having an honest to goodness NHL goalie as a starter w/ Ullmark only tasked to be a backup might have completely obviated the need to go through 6 goalies as guys playing within their ability level are less likely to hurt themselves than those that have to try to exceed their abilities. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Taro T

[Doohickie]

Just now, Taro T said:

Claiming Krueger didn't want a goalie upgrade is flat out unsubstantiated speculation.

Dude, calling my "theory" unsubstantiated speculation is actually pretty high praise.  Unless that's your euphemism for BS, and then you're probably pretty accurate.

Perhaps that was the key.... it was Kevyn's poison pill to ensure Krueger's failure without seeming obvious to the Pegulas.

[inkman]

53 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

My theory, which is mine, that is to say, that I concocted:

Adams had been around the organization for years.  He observed the strategies of XGMTM and XGMJBot and saw things that he thought worked, and saw things he thought didn't work.  Long before taking the GM position, he'd gotten familiar with the Pegulas and they with him.  One thing he decided wasn't working was Eichel.

When he was named GM I think he went with a rebuilding plan to the Pegulas.  But they hadn't given up on Jack yet, and were still in love with Krueger.  So they prevailed upon him to do the "short build", pumping as much NHL experience into the club as they could, thus Staal, Hall, Eakin, Rieder, Sheahan, etc.  I feel like Adams never liked Krueger, but kept him on in deference to the Pegulas who at the beginning of last season still thought he was the answer, and all the players Adams brought in that first season were an honest attempt at a short build to give Krueger the players he wanted.  I think Adams told the Pegulas he disagreed with their direction but committed to honestly trying to make the Sabres work with Krueger behind the bench and Jack on the ice.

As we all know, Staal turned out to be over the hill, Hall disappeared, Eakin was especially abysmal under Krueger, Jack was trying to play through injury and nothing, I mean nothing, worked.  So Adams went to Boca after Krueger's Sabres had lost 12 straight with enough ammunition to justify Krueger's firing.  At that meeting, though, the Pegulas agreed to the deep build Adams wanted to begin with.  Prior to that Adams was "listening" but not actively shopping Eichel.  At that point though, he had the backing of the Pegulas to get the best deal he could for Jack.

The injury, obviously, was a wrench in the works of a potential Eichel trade.  But at the same time it made any chance of Jack staying evaporate.  If he could have played under Granato, seen the change in the team, and contributed to a turnaround, he might have been interested in staying and Adams in keeping him.  But without that, it effectively slammed the door shut on any reconciliation between between Eichel and Adams.  Even if Adams wanted Eichel out, there's a possibility that Granato could have convinced him otherwise if only Granato could have coached a Sabres team with Eichel on the ice.

Then we get to the surgery.  I think the feeling was that, on the one hand, it was the best chance for returning Eichel to form, but that as a procedure never previously done on an NHLer, it carried risks.  I think once the decision to move Eichel was made, Adams and Pegula agreed that they were not going to take that  risk with the chance of zeroing out Eichel's value on the trade market, and instead pass it on to the next team, with a potentially diminished (but still considerable) return. 

Even now, with the apparent success of the surgery, Eichel is skating with a potential time bomb in his neck.  No one really knows how robust the artificial disc will be.  If the disc does fail it could literally catastrophic for Eichel, perhaps even life threatening.  Once they decided to move him I don't think the Pegulas wanted any part of that.

So yeah, a case can be made that the team (Adams) initiated the divorce.  I see it as when Adams came in, he knew Eichel wasn't working out already, and whether that was on Eichel or on the way the team was built around him, the best path forward was to reset without Eichel... because of Eichel's history with the team up to that point.

Rieder was a Sabre?  I blocked that out completely.  

[Doohickie]

20 minutes ago, inkman said:

Rieder was a Sabre?  I blocked that out completely.  

He was pretty forgetable.  Bjork was a clear upgrade over him.

[Randall Flagg]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

Just thinking about last night:

Thompson's goal was absolutely a play where he forced his will on the other team: that was 1st-line play by any measure.

Tuch's goal game with 0.6 seconds left and was pure clutch

Olofsson's goal was a game winner in the last few minutes buried off fantastic set-up, with the added bonus of being a slump-buster and seeing the joy of his teammates.

3 great Sabres plays from 3 separate scorers in the same game? Have not seen very much of that over the past 10 years, have we? Hockey can be fun.

I've seen players in Krebs position on that play not aware enough of the clock to take the shot he did, with how off-balance and twisted he was. It was not an ideal position and some skaters would be content to try to get into the position to shoot as the horn ends the period. But Krebs gave Alex a chance by playing with purpose and intent 

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, Weave said:

I agree that his focus was not on team building.  I disagree that it was his idea to build around a savior.  I think that decision was made at the top.

"The owner will determine the extent of the rebuild" -Darcy

 

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

It absolutely was made prior to bringing in Murray & at a higher pay grade.  Did people forget Regier's "there will be suffering" and Ted Black shooting his mouth off which resulted in changes to the lottery?

Murray was brought in to make sure the tank was successful without being too successful & to remodel the Sabres into LA/Anaheim East.  He accomplished the 1st goal but failed at the 2nd.

Guys, you’re arguing with air.

I didn’t say and I don’t think the tank was Tim Murray’s idea. 🤷

[PASabreFan]

11 hours ago, dudacek said:

This may be the fundamental difference between the current reset and the previous.

To a man, the Sabres Blinding Light Brigade speaks with conviction about being part of a “group of young players that together will grow to do great things.”

Which is markedly different approach to “we are going to squander two entire seasons in order to get Conner McDavid, or at least Jack Eichel, because he will lead us to the promised land.”

This is not pointed at Jack. It is pointed at Tim Murray and the culture and expectation that his tank created.

It wasn't his tank. It was The Pittsburgh Party's, Terry chief among them. Don't you know Terry named his dog after Sid?

[Weave]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

Guys, you’re arguing with air.

I didn’t say and I don’t think the tank was Tim Murray’s idea. 🤷

You labeled it Tim’s tank, so……

no biggie.

[Thorny]

Regardless of the approach the GMs took, there are SO many interviews from the players at that time talking about wanting to grow together as a group. The talent assembled wasn’t doomed from the start because they weren’t in it together as a team. They developed into that.

In the end, management let it go off the rails