Fire Kevyn Adams

[dudacek]

31 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@dudacek @LGR4GM

The facts don't support your arguments

Nylander vs Quinn

Nylander (8th overall 2016 by TM)

D+1 (TM) signed because of European exception to OHL rules and assigned to AHL .43 pts per game.  4 late season NHL game

D+2 (Jbot) AHL . 47 pts per game. 3 late season NHL games

D+3 (Jbot) AHL .63 pts per game. 12 late season NHL games 

Quinn (8th overall 2020 by KA)

D+1 (KA) signed do to COVID and sent to AHL.  9 pts in 15 games .6 pts per game

D+2 (KA) AHL 1.41 pts per game so far.

I don't see any difference in the handling of Nylander and Quinn who were signed and assigned to the AHL do to unique circumstances.  Jbot was clearly very patient with Nylander, but then wisely traded him in that off-season for Jokiharju.

Mitts vs. Cozens

Mitts (8th overall in 2017) by Jbot

D+1 College hockey at Minn. Signed after the college season

D+2 (Jbot) NHL 25 pts in 77 games (under HCPH) .33 pts per game.

D+3 (Jbot) NHL for 31 games (9 pts under HCRK). Sent down to AHL for 36 games

Cozens (7th overall in 2019) by Jbot

D+1 (Jbot) Returns to the WHL 

D+2 (KA) NHL 13 pts in 41 games .32 pts per game

D+3 (KA) NHL 14 pts in 27 games.  

Similar draft picks and JBot returned both to CHL/NCAA.  Both played in the NHL D+2 and put up very similar numbers. Considering the comments here, many believed that Cozens would suffer the same fate at Mitts in their D+3 years and get sent down.  Early this season that looked like a real possibility.  

Samuelsson vs Asplund vs Johnson vs JJP

Asplund (33 rd overall in 2015 by TM)

D+1 (TM) Sweden

D+2 (Jbot) Sweden

D+3 (Jbot) AHL 

D+4 (Jbot) AHL with NHL callups

Samuelsson (32nd overall in 2018 by Jbot)

D+1 (Jbot) College

D+2 (Jbot) College

D+3 (KA) AHL with NHL callup

Johnson (31st 2019 by jbot)

D+1 (Jbot) College)

D+2 (KA) College

D+3 (KA) College

JJP (34th overall in 2020 by KA)

D+1 (KA) Europe

D+2 (KA) AHL 19 pts in 19 games

Similarly drafted players treated again identically, except JJP who is in the AHL a year sooner then Asplund and Samuelsson and 2 years before Johnson.  None of these players have been rushed to the NHL.  Jbot's patience with Asplund is paying dividends now. 

Thompson vs Krebs

Thompson (26th overall in 2016 by STL)

D+1 (STL) - College plus 16 AHL games

D+2 (STL)  AHL 30 games and then 41 NHL games in 2nd half of the season. 9pts in 41 NHL games

D+3 (Jbot) NHL 65 games (12 pts), 8 AHL games (pts ) to finish season

D+4 (Jbot) Starts season in AHL with 12 pts in 16 games.  Injured in 1st NHL callup game

D+5 (KA) NHL

Krebs (17th overall in 2019 by LV)

D+1 (LV) returned to WHL

D+2 (LV) Starts in NHL (1 pts in 4 games), then returned to WHL, then finishes season in AHL (5 pts in 5 games)

D+3 (LV) Starts in NHL (0 pts in 9 game w a -6), then sent down to AHL (5 pts in 2 games) and then traded to Buffalo - (KA) starts him in AHL 11 pts in 12 games so far.

Thompson finished strong in the NHL with Stl in D+2 and had a good camp earning the start in the NHL in D+3.  I'm pretty sure that Jbot would have left him in the AHL if acquired mid season like KA did.  The only criticism you can level at Jbot was that Thompson should have been sent down earlier.

There is literally no evidence the Jbot would be treating Quinn, JJP, or Krebs differently then KA has, especially when you are arguing that this is really KA's year 1. Dahlin is the only Jbot prospect who played in the NHL D+1 and he put up 44 pts as a rookie and in Jbot's second year.  In Jbot 1st season there isn't a single prospect who played any significant minutes.  Mitts played 6 games, Ullmark 5, Fasching 5 and Guhle 18.  Baptiste, who was D+5, played the most at 33 games.   As to Power, Jbot seems to have worked with his draftees and likely would have returned Power to Jbot's alma mater for a championship run.

 

@GASabresIUFAN That was a properly lawyerly reply.

Are Quinn, Power, Peterka, Krebs and Samuelsson in situations where they can excel? Could the same be said for Mitts, Tage and Nylander the majority of the time under Botterill?

A yes or no will suffice 😁

Edited December 13, 2021 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

44 minutes ago, dudacek said:

@GASabresIUFAN That was a properly lawyerly reply.

Are Quinn, Power, Peterka, Krebs and Samuelsson in situations where they can excel? Could the same be said for Mitts, Tage and Nylander the majority of the time under Botterill.

Lawyerly maybe, but a truthful and factually correct response with not a single blanket statement not supported by facts such as "Jbot would have rushed Quinn, JJP, Krebs and Power to the NHL," when the facts show he wouldn't have.

Considering that Jbot didn't sign Nylander to his AHL contract, I don't think Jbot had any choice but to see if he would develop in the AHL.  He was very patient wouldn't you agree?

As to Mitts and Thompson, they were put into the same situation Cozens was last season by KA and we got similar results.  Again Jbot and KA treated similar players nearly identically. Had Krebs been acquired in the off-season he might have earned the job in Buffalo, just like he did to start this season in LV.  

Again there are zero facts supporting your development contentions.  Sorry, but that is just the way it is.  Jbot was extremely patient with VO, Ullmark, Asplund, Johansson, Fitzgerald, Murray, Nylander, Bryson and others.  He even moved Pekar and UPL to the CHL to get them better competition to aid their development.  He also corrected course with Mitts and Thompson when they were suffering under RK and saved their careers.  

So yes, Quinn and company are in a good situation. As to Samuelsson, I think he is a luxury in Rochester and would be best served playing in Buffalo at this point.  However since KA is following Jbot's year 1 script of not playing prospects during a tank, Samuelsson is likely staying in Rochester for the season.

Edited December 13, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

Mitts, Thompson and Nylander have been handled dramatically differently than Quinn, Krebs, Samuelsson and Peterka. The latter are playing in leagues where they can dominate. The former were all put in situations where they were in over their heads. 

 

37 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Again there are zero facts supporting your development contentions. 

Let's talk about my development contentions — as opposed to yours, or LGR's — which are quoted above as refresher.

So in your view there are zero facts supporting my contention that Quinn, Krebs, Samuelsson and Peterka are in situations where they can dominate? And that Nylander, Mitts and Tage were put in situations above their heads?

OK, I guess we've exhausted this one.

Edited December 13, 2021 by dudacek

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

There's a theory Adams will move to a president type role and Karmanos will take over as GM in title. 

That makes a lot of sense and would make me happy….which probably means Mr. & Mrs. Moneybags will never do it. 

[Weave]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

Let's talk about my development contentions — as opposed to yours, or LGR's — which are quoted above as refresher.

So in your view there are zero facts supporting my contention that Quinn, Krebs, Samuelsson and Peterka are in situations where they can dominate? And that Nylander, Mitts and Tage were put in situations above their heads?

OK, I guess we've exhausted this one.

A yes or no will NOT suffice.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@dudacek @LGR4GM

The facts don't support your arguments

Nylander vs Quinn

Nylander (8th overall 2016 by TM)

D+1 (TM) signed because of European exception to OHL rules and assigned to AHL .43 pts per game.  4 late season NHL game

D+2 (Jbot) AHL . 47 pts per game. 3 late season NHL games

D+3 (Jbot) AHL .63 pts per game. 12 late season NHL games 

Quinn (8th overall 2020 by KA)

D+1 (KA) signed do to COVID and sent to AHL.  9 pts in 15 games .6 pts per game

D+2 (KA) AHL 1.41 pts per game so far.

I don't see any difference in the handling of Nylander and Quinn who were signed and assigned to the AHL do to unique circumstances.  Jbot was clearly very patient with Nylander, but then wisely traded him in that off-season for Jokiharju.

Mitts vs. Cozens

Mitts (8th overall in 2017) by Jbot

D+1 College hockey at Minn. Signed after the college season

D+2 (Jbot) NHL 25 pts in 77 games (under HCPH) .33 pts per game.

D+3 (Jbot) NHL for 31 games (9 pts under HCRK). Sent down to AHL for 36 games

Cozens (7th overall in 2019) by Jbot

D+1 (Jbot) Returns to the WHL 

D+2 (KA) NHL 13 pts in 41 games .32 pts per game

D+3 (KA) NHL 14 pts in 27 games.  

Similar draft picks and JBot returned both to CHL/NCAA.  Both played in the NHL D+2 and put up very similar numbers. Considering the comments here, many believed that Cozens would suffer the same fate at Mitts in their D+3 years and get sent down.  Early this season that looked like a real possibility.  

Samuelsson vs Asplund vs Johnson vs JJP

Asplund (33 rd overall in 2015 by TM)

D+1 (TM) Sweden

D+2 (Jbot) Sweden

D+3 (Jbot) AHL 

D+4 (Jbot) AHL with NHL callups

Samuelsson (32nd overall in 2018 by Jbot)

D+1 (Jbot) College

D+2 (Jbot) College

D+3 (KA) AHL with NHL callup

Johnson (31st 2019 by jbot)

D+1 (Jbot) College)

D+2 (KA) College

D+3 (KA) College

JJP (34th overall in 2020 by KA)

D+1 (KA) Europe

D+2 (KA) AHL 19 pts in 19 games

Similarly drafted players treated again identically, except JJP who is in the AHL a year sooner then Asplund and Samuelsson and 2 years before Johnson.  None of these players have been rushed to the NHL.  Jbot's patience with Asplund is paying dividends now. 

Thompson vs Krebs

Thompson (26th overall in 2016 by STL)

D+1 (STL) - College plus 16 AHL games

D+2 (STL)  AHL 30 games and then 41 NHL games in 2nd half of the season. 9pts in 41 NHL games

D+3 (Jbot) NHL 65 games (12 pts), 8 AHL games (pts ) to finish season

D+4 (Jbot) Starts season in AHL with 12 pts in 16 games.  Injured in 1st NHL callup game

D+5 (KA) NHL

Krebs (17th overall in 2019 by LV)

D+1 (LV) returned to WHL

D+2 (LV) Starts in NHL (1 pts in 4 games), then returned to WHL, then finishes season in AHL (5 pts in 5 games)

D+3 (LV) Starts in NHL (0 pts in 9 game w a -6), then sent down to AHL (5 pts in 2 games) and then traded to Buffalo - (KA) starts him in AHL 11 pts in 12 games so far.

Thompson finished strong in the NHL with Stl in D+2 and had a good camp earning the start in the NHL in D+3.  I'm pretty sure that Jbot would have left him in the AHL if acquired mid season like KA did.  The only criticism you can level at Jbot was that Thompson should have been sent down earlier.

There is literally no evidence the Jbot would be treating Quinn, JJP, or Krebs differently then KA has, especially when you are arguing that this is really KA's year 1. Dahlin is the only Jbot prospect who played in the NHL D+1 and he put up 44 pts as a rookie and in Jbot's second year.  In Jbot 1st season there isn't a single prospect who played any significant minutes.  Mitts played 6 games, Ullmark 5, Fasching 5 and Guhle 18.  Baptiste, who was D+5, played the most at 33 games.   As to Power, Jbot seems to have worked with his draftees and likely would have returned Power to Jbot's alma mater for a championship run.

 

Great so you admit that Adams is doing what Botterill did and that criticizing Adams while continuingly defending Botterill for doing the similar if not same things does not a compelling argument make. If you think Adams should be fired after 1 offseason when he is doing exactly what Botterill did after 1 offseason, why does Botterill get a pass but Adams is an inept moron who is just a Pegula yes man in your eyes? 

 

The facts you presented don't support your argument either. Botterill allowed more players to develop than I thought but again, how does that show that Adams is an incompetent idiot who needs to be fired after roughly 9 months in the drivers seat? 

[LGR4GM]

20 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What results did that yield?  Caggiula returned and he signed Jankowski and Hayden upfront.  He brought in Anderson and Dell for goaltending and added Hagg and Butcher on the defense.  Which of these have made a positive impact this season? The best signings were Hinostroza and Pysyk and both have been ok, but not exactly guys one really hopes return next season.  

Did Karmanos and company help on the trades of Risto, Reinhart and Eichel?  Hopefully, but we have yet to see anything of impact from those deals so far at the NHL level.  

The truth is his talent evaluation at the NHL level is crap so far. 

What did the results yield in Botterill's first year when he traded ROR going into year 2? 

What did Botterill do that is so superior to Adams. Botterill was a good gm or at least okay by your reckoning but you want Adams fired after 9 months on the job. You just demonstrated Botterill and Adams have treated prospects in a similar fashion and in year 1 brought in similar players to allow kids to grow in the correct places, so what thing can you point to that shows Botterill was better than Adams or that Adams is incompetent. Goaltending won't cut it because we understand what happened there and Botterill also failed to fix the GT situation. 

What great talent did Botts bring in to show he was a good talent evaluator? Tage Thompson finally paying off from the ROR trade is a testament to Tage Thompson not to J Botterill. 

[Thorny]

Botterill absolutely gets some credit for Thompson. The trade still isn't good but it improves in retrospect the better Tage is. 

[LGR4GM]

6 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

KA’s player evaluation is also lacking.  Hayden vs Murray for example.  Bringing in Eakin, Bjork, Hayden, Butcher and Dell at all thinking they might be serviceable NHL players.  They aren’t and weren’t  KA when he acquired them.  

In two years all he has shown he is that he is a terrible evaluator of NHL players and has had terrible roster construction.   However he has proven to be an effective yes man to the Pegulas.  

Jot also signed his depth players to short term deals. 

So far the only things KA has accomplished so far is tanking the team and cutting spending.  The on ice product is no better in year two.  

The truth is this season is that KA purposefully tanked the team given the budget constraints from the Pegulas.  That’s not ok IMHO.  I don’t think it helps the franchise move forward or help build a winning culture.  It’s just another wasted season and more evidence to the players the losing is ok.  

Spin it as a transition year if you want.  Give KA a pass for his short term deals and keeping spots open for the kids next year. Hope that Tuch pulls a Drury and changes the culture with his personality.  I get it.  Hope springs eternal.  

However do you really have any confidence that KA can make the right decisions to supplement the young core and build a winning team?  I think all the evidence at this juncture points against that belief.  

 

What player evaluation? You are continually hung up on Butcher and it was a way to add cap and get a pick, Butcher barely has to be serviceable and he's gone at the deadline or in July so it isn't like Adams looked at him and thought "oh man, I can get this guy for free and turn the defense around!". 

How is this different than Jbott bringing in Berglund, Sobotka, Hunwick, O'Regan, CJ Smith etc... I don't think Botts thought those guys were world beaters although the ROR trade of Berglund and Sobotka is a huge red flag on Botts talent eval skills. So how is this different than Hayden, Eakin (krueger pick), Staal, Butcher? Dell was signed be the AHL backup so whatever with that. 

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Botterill absolutely gets some credit for Thompson. The trade still isn't good but it improves in retrospect the better Tage is. 

No he doesn't. Tage developed because the coach Adams hired and the dev team Adams hired put Tage at center and got him to where he is. In fact I can show you an entire thread of ppl complaining about Adams giving Tage a 3 year deal because it was an overpay for the talentless player Tage seemed to be at the time. I'll give Botts credit for Ryan Johnson though. 

[Thorny]

No, Botterill still acquired the player that had the potential to develop into that. He gets some credit. 

Botterill hired Granato and Granato moved Tage to C, also

A thread of people complaining about tage isn't relevant haha. Adams ovbviously didn't agree w/fan perception given the contract offer. They didn't move Tage to C until forced to in camp - it wasn't in the initial plan

Edited December 13, 2021 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No, Botterill still acquired the player that had the potential to develop into that. He gets some credit. 

Botterill hired Granato and Granato moved Tage to C, also

A thread of people complaining about tage isn't relevant haha. Adams ovbviously didn't agree w/fan perception given the contract offer. They didn't move Tage to C until forced to in camp - it wasn't in the initial plan

But what if it was. What if Granato undermined Krueger to get Botterill Fired, to get Krueger fired, to get head coach and move Tage to center! 

Boom, conspiracy theory. 

[Cascade Youth]

My biggest nightmare right now is Adams getting fired.  It would mean that this was all for nothing.

[Zamboni]

23 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said:

My biggest nightmare right now is Adams getting fired.  It would mean that this was all for nothing.

Don’t worry. No matter how much whining and hand wringing some fans are doing on message boards and loudmouths on social media sites, KA isn’t going anywhere, for at least the rest of the season and this off season. Perhaps even longer I would suspect. At least that’s how I see it.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Despite my wanting KA gone, I agree he isn't getting fired after this season.  However, TP gets an itchy trigger finger after year 3 and KA needs to show considerable progress next season or his seat will starting getting very warm.

Edited December 14, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Marvin]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Despite my wanting KA gone, I agree he isn't getting fired after this season.  However, TP gets an itchy trigger finger after year 3 and KA needs to show considerable progress next season or his seat will starting getting very warm.

Agreed -- the team has to make demonstrable progress and not just tread water.

[jad1]

11 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Despite my wanting KA gone, I agree he isn't getting fired after this season.  However, TP gets an itchy trigger finger after year 3 and KA needs to show considerable progress next season or his seat will starting getting very warm.

If the Sabres are bottom 5 in the league come spring, and the attendence is under 8,000 a game, Pegula will fire Adams at the end of the season.

Expect him to start scheduling skip level meetings with Karmanos around President's day.

[Curt]

57 minutes ago, jad1 said:

If the Sabres are bottom 5 in the league come spring, and the attendence is under 8,000 a game, Pegula will fire Adams at the end of the season.

Expect him to start scheduling skip level meetings with Karmanos around President's day.

I don’t think there is any realistic scenario where Adams gets fired before the 2023 offseason.

[jad1]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

I don’t think there is any realistic scenario where Adams gets fired before the 2023 offseason.

With Karmanos waiting in the wings it's more likely he gets fired than not.  

[Curt]

Just now, jad1 said:

With Karmanos waiting in the wings it's more likely he gets fired than not.  

You think it’s a greater than 50% chance that Adams is fired before next season?

I think there is a 0% chance that happens.

[jad1]

Just now, Curt said:

You think it’s a greater than 50% chance that Adams is fired before next season?

I think there is a 0% chance that happens.

Yes.  And if the Sabres are in the bottom 5 of the league come April and averaging 7,000 fans a game, I'd say that there's a 100% chance he's fired.

 

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, jad1 said:

With Karmanos waiting in the wings it's more likely he gets fired than not.  

I proposed earlier in this thread kicking KA upstairs and then letting Karmanos be the GM.  That is the only way TP “fires” KA after this season.  

[Curt]

1 hour ago, jad1 said:

Yes.  And if the Sabres are in the bottom 5 of the league come April and averaging 7,000 fans a game, I'd say that there's a 100% chance he's fired.

 

Why do you think that?  Adams plans, which it’s been reported that Pegula signed off on, obviously did not include winning this season.  The results are not exactly unexpected.

To me, this looks like year 1 of Adams carrying out his plan.  It’s just way to soon to pull the plug, even for the Pegulas.

[jad1]

11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I proposed earlier in this thread kicking KA upstairs and then letting Karmanos be the GM.  That is the only way TP “fires” KA after this season.  

No, Pegula will straight up fire him.  

Look, we have enough history with Pegula to know how this works.  He fired Blysma, Ryan, and Krueger after only two years on the job, even though there was a lot of opinion that he would give those guys 3 years or would kick one of them upstairs (Krueger).

He fired Murray with almost no warning.  He fired Botterill after giving him a vote of confidence.

Pegula has no history of moving people around the organization instead of just letting them go.

He has a long history, though, of firing people who don't produce results.  If the Sabres continue on their current pace, it's hard to make the argument that he's going to change now.  Especially since Karmanos has an equal or better resume than Adams.

 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, jad1 said:

No, Pegula will straight up fire him.  

Look, we have enough history with Pegula to know how this works.  He fired Blysma, Ryan, and Krueger after only two years on the job, even though there was a lot of opinion that he would give those guys 3 years or would kick one of them upstairs (Krueger).

He fired Murray with almost no warning.  He fired Botterill after giving him a vote of confidence.

Pegula has no history of moving people around the organization instead of just letting them go.

He has a long history, though, of firing people who don't produce results.  If the Sabres continue on their current pace, it's hard to make the argument that he's going to change now.  Especially since Karmanos has an equal or better resume than Adams.

 

No history of moving people around in the organization?  Huh?

Brandon moved from Bills President to President over all the teams.  Adams himself moved up from the Hockey Acadamy to running Harbor Center to Running the Sabres (not including earlier moves).

He moves people all over.

[sabresparaavida]

4 minutes ago, jad1 said:

No, Pegula will straight up fire him.  

Look, we have enough history with Pegula to know how this works.  He fired Blysma, Ryan, and Krueger after only two years on the job, even though there was a lot of opinion that he would give those guys 3 years or would kick one of them upstairs (Krueger).

He fired Murray with almost no warning.  He fired Botterill after giving him a vote of confidence.

Pegula has no history of moving people around the organization instead of just letting them go.

He has a long history, though, of firing people who don't produce results.  If the Sabres continue on their current pace, it's hard to make the argument that he's going to change now.  Especially since Karmanos has an equal or better resume than Adams.

 

I’d look at the situations a bit more first. KA is doing a full rebuild where he tore down the team, and is taking the development route. This is supposed to take time. JBotts was trying to ice a good roster and did not come close to successful. Murray had the tank team, but that was after he spent a lot of future assets, and tryed a quick rebuild, which obviously did not work. Both Murray and JBotts were likely on a shorter time frame than KA is, because they were building to try to be successful now or next year, where as KA seems to be more focused on 2-3 years out, and building a strong team from the inside which takes time. I would hope that Terry gives more time when considering the circumstances.