So #8

[Thorny]

9 minutes ago, Ducky said:

You are probably right but what I meant was build for the long term, not the short term.

I think Cozen starts as 3C in a somewhat sheltered role until he learns the pro game. Harder to play 82 games as a 2C at that age.

Agree on Cozens. 

I maintain our issue is not enough focus on the near term. Eichel is our best shot at a cup, by far, no question, and maximizing that player becomes more difficult the further he gets from the centre of his prime and the closer he gets to UFA status. 

It's not just about building around Jack, it's about building around his best years. I don't want Eichel getting his first taste of the playoff grind in his late 20s. I'm worried about the wear and tear. 

We cannot waste this chance. It is imperative. 

8 minutes ago, FLSabreFan said:

Anybody interested in dealing Sam + for Monahan.  The + would be their choice of Asplund, Mitts, Tage or 2020-2nd.  

In this equation for the Sabres would be the expectation of Risto and Montour being dealt for RW's to backfill for Sam and the open 2RW position.  Guys I would want, that have been part of rumored discussions around the last TDL are Alex Tuch and Josh Anderson.

My goal is obviously to secure a decent 2C while retaining 8-OA and Cozens, and backfilling with surplus RhD's who are redundant to Joker and Miller to a lesser degree

I'd rather trade 8 than Sam, by far. A trade where we find a way to keep Sam but lose 8 is an absolute coup. I don't even know if it's possible (trade negotiations, cap) but 

Skinner - Eichel - Olofsson

Gaudreau - Monahan - Reinhart 

..is the way to go, if we can go that way. It doesn't even have to be Gaudreau and Monahan, but any scenario that leaves us with a playoff caliber top 6 - sign me up. That's the goal, no, to adequately fill in that top 6? Why wait on 8.

I'll be happier sitting at the 2021 draft picking 20th or whatever knowing we aren't counting on that player developing into a top 6 guy, laying out an achievable mid-6 path for him, knowing we've strengthened the liklihood of ALL of our future picks carving out a niche considering the available niche's are completely attainable. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Thorny

[inkman]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I'd rather trade 8 than Sam, by far 

Akin to I'd rather get my d*** sucked than smashed by a hammer.  

Edited August 23, 2020 by inkman

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, inkman said:

Akin to I'd rather get my d*** sucked than smashed by a hammer.  

I don't think it's a landslide opinion at all. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

9 minutes ago, inkman said:

Akin to I'd rather get my d*** sucked than smashed by a hammer.  

Made me think of Gallagher and his sledgehammer. Ouch.

[Cascade Youth]

36 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don't think it's a landslide opinion at all. 

I guess it may depend on the hammer?

[dudacek]

How much input do you think new Rochester head coach Seth Appert on the Sabres Draft board?

”I could easily make an argument for myself that this was the favourite group of men that I’ve ever coached...and Jake (Sanderson) led that. Jake is, in my mind, the best defenceman in the world in this draft. He’s a special leader and his work ethic and his character is off the charts.”

Who would be upset if we take Sanderson?

[FLSabreFan]

41 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Agree on Cozens. 

I maintain our issue is not enough focus on the near term. Eichel is our best shot at a cup, by far, no question, and maximizing that player becomes more difficult the further he gets from the centre of his prime and the closer he gets to UFA status. 

It's not just about building around Jack, it's about building around his best years. I don't want Eichel getting his first taste of the playoff grind in his late 20s. I'm worried about the wear and tear. 

We cannot waste this chance. It is imperative. 

I'd rather trade 8 than Sam, by far. A trade where we find a way to keep Sam but lose 8 is an absolute coup. I don't even know if it's possible (trade negotiations, cap) but 

Skinner - Eichel - Olofsson

Gaudreau - Monahan - Reinhart 

..is the way to go, if we can go that way. It doesn't even have to be Gaudreau and Monahan, but any scenario that leaves us with a playoff caliber top 6 - sign me up. That's the goal, no, to adequately fill in that top 6? Why wait on 8.

I'll be happier sitting at the 2021 draft picking 20th or whatever knowing we aren't counting on that player developing into a top 6 guy, laying out an achievable mid-6 path for him, knowing we've strengthened the liklihood of ALL of our future picks carving out a niche considering the available niche's are completely attainable. 

Ok, so in a vacuum, I'd like to get Johnny Hockey and Monahan while retaining Sam too.  However, I believe the Cap at $81.5 for 2 or 3 years will prohibit that given Dahlin, Joker and other pay raises.

Skinner Eichel Olofsson will be about $23.5m.  JD,  Monahan and Sam will cost ~$21m...keep in mind Okoposo and Mojo cost $10.5m.  That's $54m with 4 more F spots to fill, lol.  Undoable.

Keep in mind it is possible for the Sabres to inact an internal budget for the next 2 - 3 years while Revenues stablize and return to more normal levels.

[FLSabreFan]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

How much input do you think new Rochester head coach Seth Appert on the Sabres Draft board?

”I could easily make an argument for myself that this was the favourite group of men that I’ve ever coached...and Jake (Sanderson) led that. Jake is, in my mind, the best defenceman in the world in this draft. He’s a special leader and his work ethic and his character is off the charts.”

Who would be upset if we take Sanderson?

I think the better question would be ...

How long before someone kills Kevin Adam's and the 3 remaining Scouts/ Analysts 

 

[Marvin]

43 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I'd rather trade 8 than Sam, by far. A trade where we find a way to keep Sam but lose 8 is an absolute coup.

IMHO, any trade to get a current, real, #2C with some term will require #8 and one of Olofsson, Reinhart, or Cozens just to keep them from hanging up the phone.  We have such an obvious sense of urgency not to piss off Eichel any more that other GMs would be derelict in their duties not to ask for three high-end assets to start things off.

[FLSabreFan]

I think the  better question might be 

 

How long before someone kills Kevin Adam's and his staff of 3 in Hockey Ops for drafting Sanderson at 8

[FLSabreFan]

8-OA plus Sam or Olo etc would be a massive overpayment IMO.

Yes, Sabres need a short-term fix there, however the Flames aren't exactly sitting pretty with their fan base either...the pressure there maybe as bad or worse.  It cancels each other out, IMO.

Calgary might realize that Monahan gets them a 1RW + and hope that JG + can get the a serviceable C...say from Philly ... Giroux + 

[dudacek]

32 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

IMHO, any trade to get a current, real, #2C with some term will require #8 and one of Olofsson, Reinhart, or Cozens just to keep them from hanging up the phone.  We have such an obvious sense of urgency not to piss off Eichel any more that other GMs would be derelict in their duties not to ask for three high-end assets to start things off.

I find people don’t look at history enough when talking trade returns. Here are some recent deals for good 2Cs (*were rentals)

• *Pageau: 1st, 2nd
• O’Reilly: 1st, 2nd, good prospect
• Trochek: a rental 3C, 3rd liner, 2 B prospects
• Kadri: rental 2/3 D
• Miller: 1st, 3rd
• *Hayes: 1st, 4th liner
• *Duchene 1st, B prospect
• Domi: Galchenyuk

Not one of these guys returned a player as good as Reinhart, a pick as high as 8, or a prospect as good as Cozens.

We might have to give up one of those assets to make a deal, but it would be a mistake to give up 2 of them.

Edited August 23, 2020 by dudacek

[Marvin]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I find people don’t look at history enough when talking trade returns. Here are some recent deals for good 2Cs (*were rentals)

• *Pageau: 1st, 2nd
• O’Reilly: 1st, 2nd, good prospect
• Trochek: a rental 3C, 3rd liner, 2 B prospects
• Kadri: rental 2/3 D
• Miller: 1st, 3rd
• *Hayes: 1st, 4th liner
• *Duchene 1st, B prospect
• Domi: Galchenyuk

Not one of these guys returned a player as good as Reinhart, a pick as high as 8, or a prospect as good as Cozens.

We might have to give up one of those assets to make a deal, but it would be a mistake to give up 2 of them.

I hope your are right.  I just can't see it with the perception of us being on thin ice with Eichel.

[LGR4GM]

28 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I hope your are right.  I just can't see it with the perception of us being on thin ice with Eichel.

I think this is a fan perception not an nhl perception and all Adams has to do is laugh at a GM who tries to railroad him with a bad trade using that threat. 

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

How much input do you think new Rochester head coach Seth Appert on the Sabres Draft board?

”I could easily make an argument for myself that this was the favourite group of men that I’ve ever coached...and Jake (Sanderson) led that. Jake is, in my mind, the best defenceman in the world in this draft. He’s a special leader and his work ethic and his character is off the charts.”

Who would be upset if we take Sanderson?

I'd be pretty disappointed.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

12 hours ago, FLSabreFan said:

I think the  better question might be 

 

How long before someone kills Kevin Adam's and his staff of 3 in Hockey Ops for drafting Sanderson at 8

Would really depend on the board at 8. Sanderson has gotten some love as high as 3/4 overall. Of course that high would be a major surprise, still we have this quote from the new Amerks coach from when he coached Sanderson:

“I’d be shocked if Jake Sanderson isn’t selected top 10 in the draft. He plays the game so efficiently, defends so hard and can jump into the play and add offense… he’s the prototypical modern-age defenseman. I know other defensemen get more notoriety because of the points they put up, but the beauty of Jake Sanderson is the more you watch him, the more you start to appreciate what an unbelievable defender he is.” – Seth Appert, NTDP U18 head coach

One last thing on Sanderson. Jake Sanderson was born on July 8th meaning his is very young for this draft. He played against a lot of people who were 5-10 months older than him and by all accounts did it very well. This is the one thing that gives me hope that Johnson will be better whenever he gets to play in the NCAA again (he has a july 24 bday). 

With all that said, I think the best way to look at Sanderson is probably this write up about the NJD taking him. It also notes that the Devils have 4 prospects on the Ottawa 67's so Rossi and Quinn I think are in play for the NJD https://thehockeywriters.com/devils-jake-sanderson-seventh-overall/

[JohnC]

14 hours ago, dudacek said:

How much input do you think new Rochester head coach Seth Appert on the Sabres Draft board?

”I could easily make an argument for myself that this was the favourite group of men that I’ve ever coached...and Jake (Sanderson) led that. Jake is, in my mind, the best defenceman in the world in this draft. He’s a special leader and his work ethic and his character is off the charts.”

Who would be upset if we take Sanderson?

The issue isn't whether Sanderson would be a good NHL player as it would be can you get an equally good or better player at the forward spot that can better balance out your team. If you believe that one of the forwards on the board who is ranked in the same vicinity as Sanderson can be a top two line player then the selection should lean toward the forward. 

As others have stated we have some good d-men prospects in the pipeline such as Borgen and Johnson in addition to a surplus of blue liners on the roster. What this franchise lacks is second line forward prospects. If the Sabres had a more robust and balanced roster then the smartest and most conventional approach is to draft the best player and allow that player to develop at his own rate.  

My preference is if the Sabres can get a mid-twenty year old second line forward, preferably center, in exchange for our first pick or in a package I would seize the opportunity. 

[LGR4GM]

I will say that there would have to be some crazy drafting in picks 1-7 for Sanderson to end up as the best player available at 8. 

[dudacek]

42 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I will say that there would have to be some crazy drafting in picks 1-7 for Sanderson to end up as the best player available at 8. 

Some mix of

• Lafreniere
• Byfield
• Stutzle
• Perfetti
• Raymond
• Rossi
• Drysdale

top seven isn't crazy at all. In fact, it's a reasonable take.

And  we know there are team that have Sanderson top four, so its not at all crazy to think the Sabres may have him ranked ahead Holtz/Lundell or whoever else is still on the board.

[LGR4GM]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Some mix of

• Lafreniere
• Byfield
• Stutzle
• Perfetti
• Raymond
• Rossi
• Drysdale

top seven isn't crazy at all. In fact, it's a reasonable take.

And  we know there are team that have Sanderson top four, so its not at all crazy to think the Sabres may have him ranked ahead Holtz/Lundell or whoever else is still on the board.

It's pretty crazy to rank him ahead of Holtz/Lundell/Jarvis IMPO. I think Raymond though is the player that goes in the top 7 we don't mention often enough. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

47 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I will say that there would have to be some crazy drafting in picks 1-7 for Sanderson to end up as the best player available at 8. 

An honest question....which is more valuable positionally?

I can see Sanderson being the best D available at 8. If the forwards aren't that significantly better, do you take Sanderson and use other D on roster or in system (Johnson/Borgen/Bryce/Miller etc) to trade for forwards? If Sanderson is an upgrade to what we have.

Several C's end up as wingers (Sam) which seems to make it easier to obtain a wing. It also means that if you draft a C you may end up with a player that doesn't fit the need you have drafted him for.

Would any of this come into play? I mean if Sanderson is near BPA. Example...draft him and trade Johnson for a rostered wing that can play now.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I will say that there would have to be some crazy drafting in picks 1-7 for Sanderson to end up as the best player available at 8. 

Last year the Red Wings took D Moritz Seider with the 6th pick surprising a lot of people. Each team has their own evaluations of players. So it wouldn't be surprising that Sanderson who is the top rated defenseman on many teams' board would go higher than some people think. 

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Last year the Red Wings took D Moritz Seider with the 6th pick surprising a lot of people. Each team has their own evaluations of players. So it wouldn't be surprising that Sanderson who is the top rated defenseman on many teams' board would go higher than some people think. 

There seems to be a consensus that he will go top 10 and could go top 5.

McKenzie had him at #8 in his final rankings:

https://www.tsn.ca/bob-mckenzie-s-final-ranking-lafreniere-the-surest-thing-in-most-uncertain-draft-year-1.1488272

- U.S. U-18 left defenceman Jake Sanderson at No. 8.

The son of former NHL speedster forward Geoff Sanderson, who is the pride of Hay River in the Northwest Territories, young American Jake is a shooting star in the 2020 draft class.

At almost 6-foot-2 and a 185-pound frame that will greatly fill out in the years to come, he demonstrated in the first half of the season that he has the physical tools, including elite skating ability, to be a big, mobile shutdown NHL defender.

But in the second half of the season he exploded offensively, and so did the projections, even though his consensus ranking on the TSN list improved by only one slot from mid-season. As previously mentioned, two of TSN’s 10 scouts have Sanderson as the top defenceman in the draft and ranked him third overall, behind only Lafreniere and Stutzle. He was No. 3 on the high side, No. 11 on the low side.

“Could be a star,” one scout said.

Edited August 24, 2020 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

There seems to be a consensus that he will go top 10 and could go top 5.

McKenzie had him at #8 in his final rankings:

https://www.tsn.ca/bob-mckenzie-s-final-ranking-lafreniere-the-surest-thing-in-most-uncertain-draft-year-1.1488272

- U.S. U-18 left defenceman Jake Sanderson at No. 8.

The son of former NHL speedster forward Geoff Sanderson, who is the pride of Hay River in the Northwest Territories, young American Jake is a shooting star in the 2020 draft class.

At almost 6-foot-2 and a 185-pound frame that will greatly fill out in the years to come, he demonstrated in the first half of the season that he has the physical tools, including elite skating ability, to be a big, mobile shutdown NHL defender.

But in the second half of the season he exploded offensively, and so did the projections, even though his consensus ranking on the TSN list improved by only one slot from mid-season. As previously mentioned, two of TSN’s 10 scouts have Sanderson as the top defenceman in the draft and ranked him third overall, behind only Lafreniere and Stutzle. He was No. 3 on the high side, No. 11 on the low side.

“Could be a star,” one scout said.

Yup. I think he makes sense for Ottawa and he makes sense for NJD and Anaheim. 

[LabattBlue]

17 hours ago, dudacek said:

Who would be upset if we take Sanderson?

Me.  The Sabres group of forward prospects is so lacking, that if they do keep #8, it has to be a forward.  I don’t know much about the prospects, but I’d be surprised if Sanderson grades out head and shoulders above forward prospects being mentioned...Lundell, Jarvis, Rossi, Raymond, etc...
 

to the point where Sanderson has to be the pick.