dudacek Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, pi2000 said: I'm not cherry picking stats. Look at Tampa and St.Louis or other top teams... multiple players in the top 50 in each of those categories. Those are key metrics for icing a winning team. You are cherry picking stats. You've provided no context whatsoever. Pominville, Vanek, Satan, Audette, Andreychuk, Mogilny, McKegney, Robert, Martin: how many of them blocked shots, racked up the hits and won faceoffs? Were they not good players? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brawndo Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, dudacek said: You are cherry picking stats. You've provided no context whatsoever. Pominville, Vanek, Satan, Audette, Andreychuk, Mogilny, McKegney, Robert, Martin: how many of them blocked shots, racked up the hits and won faceoffs? Were they not good players? Of course they were good players. Let me be clear... Sam is a good player, I don't want him traded, nor do I want them to over pay a player who is a liability at all aspects of the game besides putting up middling top RW stats besides a top 3 center in the world. My goal wasn't to pick on Sam, but it became alarming that he's not just below average, but near the absolute bottom of the league in some categories that winning teams excel at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 20 minutes ago, pi2000 said: I get it that he's a winger, but he was drafted as a center and he just isn't good at it... faceoffs being one reason. What should he be good at as a winger? I was hoping he would be atleast average at some of those things, but he's near the bottom of the league. Or do we just throw money at guys based on point production and ignore every other measurable statistic? Statistics that winning teams do well at? Why can't I see the raw numbers? What toi are you using to get your per60 number. Does situational toi matter? Why only these 4 stats? Why are there no shot metrics? You haven't shown me where winning teams have players in this list or what players also land near Reinhart. For example Steve Stamkos has a whopping 4 more takeaways. Does that really matter? You lack context and I'd argue 2 of your 4 stats have little to do with winning. 1 has a small correlation, faceoffs. Takeaways might be the best one but I have not seen it studied. Hits have been shown to be deeply flawed. Block shots is a mixed bag because it's mainly a defensive stat and only tells us when you don't have possession. Idk, you think you've proved some grand point and I don't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, pi2000 said: Scoring points matters of course. Let me put it this way, in your opinion, is Sam a well rounded hockey player? I've provided statistical evidence that shows he is not. Let's see some evidence that he is before backing up the Pegula money truck in his driveway. You cherry picked statistical evidence of four things that Sam doesn't do much of and failed to provide the context of how other top-six wingers rank in those categories. Roles matter. Zone exits, zone entries, shots, shooting percentage, turnovers, what situations he's used in, how he elevates the play of his linemates, what he's like in the dressing room, how he takes direction and coaching, puck retrievals, giveaways, fitness, defensive breakdowns, defensive assignments executed, penalties taken, penalties drawn, durability, stamina, speed, willingness to go into the dirty areas, success in the dirty areas, ability to find open ice, success using open ice, play selection, ability to read off his teammates, ability to read the opposition... Sam might not be great at all of them, but he does more of these things well than any other player on this team other than Jack and the things he does best are the things that typically earn you good money from NHL GMs The things he's not particularly good at are things that typically don't get you big bucks. Edited February 6, 2020 by dudacek 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, pi2000 said: My goal wasn't to pick on Sam, but it became alarming that he's not just below average, but near the absolute bottom of the league in some categories that winning teams excel at. Apples and pears. How does he rank against players in the same role? It's a team game. Vanek can be Vanek if Drury is being Drury and Gaustad is Gaustad and McKee McKee. Edited February 6, 2020 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 Maybe we'll sign Sam to a 7 mil deal and we can all be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Why can't I see the raw numbers? What toi are you using to get your per60 number. Does situational toi matter? Why only these 4 stats? Why are there no shot metrics? You haven't shown me where winning teams have players in this list or what players also land near Reinhart. For example Steve Stamkos has a whopping 4 more takeaways. Does that really matter? You lack context and I'd argue 2 of your 4 stats have little to do with winning. 1 has a small correlation, faceoffs. Takeaways might be the best one but I have not seen it studied. Hits have been shown to be deeply flawed. Block shots is a mixed bag because it's mainly a defensive stat and only tells us when you don't have possession. Idk, you think you've proved some grand point and I don't see it. What we discussing here? The legitmacy of these statistics? Nice deflection haha. Now back to Sam.... what does he do thats better than league average besides putting up middling top RW points next to a top 3 center in the world? We know he doesn't like to hit, block shots, take faceoffs, take pucks away... I'll be waiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Weave said: Just to nitpick, if you can measure it, it can't be intangible. It's right there in the definition of the root word. What are you? Some kind of Self-appointed Expert? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 1 minute ago, pi2000 said: What we discussing here? The legitmacy of these statistics? Nice deflection haha. Now back to most.... what does he do thats better than league average besides putting up middling top RW points next to a top 3 center in the world? We know he doesn't like to hit, block shots, take faceoffs, take pucks away... I'll be waiting. Zone exits, zone entries for two. Seems to be the best winger on the team at offensive zone puck retrievals, gets to the paint, makes more plays along the wall than any other Sabre winger, finds the open man, gets to the right spot in the ice, stays healthy, rarely takes stupid penalties, adjusts his game well to suit his role and linemates, finds the puck, moves it quickly... But even if he does nothing else well, scoring points in the top 93 percentile in the league against the other team's best players is a big deal, so stop pretending it isn't. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 15 minutes ago, Doohickie said: What are you? Some kind of Self-appointed Expert? And a pedant. *checked spelling twice* 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Scouts Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 35 minutes ago, Brawndo said: He has a contract....tough SH**....what would his play be, to sabotage his own play causing the team to lose more than they already do? No need to be an alarmist about Eichel The same has been said about Austin Matthews in Toronto......SO WHAT? Maybe Dreger and TSN should worry about the Leafs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, KC Scouts said: He has a contract....tough SH**....what would his play be, to sabotage his own play causing the team to lose more than they already do? No need to be an alarmist about Eichel The same has been said about Austin Matthews in Toronto......SO WHAT? Maybe Dreger and TSN should worry about the Leafs Not that anything is imminent, but if Jack demanded a trade, he would be traded. You can’t just tell him tough *****, you’ve got a contract. You can’t have a star player disgruntled perpetually. Edited February 6, 2020 by Curt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Scouts Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, Curt said: Not that anything is imminent, but if Jack demanded a trade, he would be traded. You can’t just tell him tough *****, you’ve got a contract. You can’t have a star player disgruntled perpetually. Agreed on the perpetually disgruntled. but there is no indication that he has reached that point. The Sabres are under no obligation to trade him if he whines unless they can get the right compensation. WHICH IS EXACTLY THE MISTAKE THEY MADE WITH O"REILLY. Actually a contract gives you the right to tell a player tough ****, which buys you time to make the proper trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 46 minutes ago, pi2000 said: What we discussing here? The legitmacy of these statistics? Nice deflection haha. Now back to Sam.... what does he do thats better than league average besides putting up middling top RW points next to a top 3 center in the world? We know he doesn't like to hit, block shots, take faceoffs, take pucks away... I'll be waiting. You're deflecting. No comparables and no raw data. That's what I asked. You've ignored that hits have no correlation to winning. You've ignored he's a winger so faceoffs aren't his things. He's not a defender which using the limited data you provided shows us defenders block more shots. Again if you're blocking shots you don't have possession. Keep deflecting. You're one of many posters on this board that won't take the time to defend what they posted when it is scrutinized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 1 hour ago, pi2000 said: Scoring points matters of course. Let me put it this way, in your opinion, is Sam a well rounded hockey player? I've provided statistical evidence that shows he is not. Let's see some evidence that he is before backing up the Pegula money truck in his driveway. No, you really haven't. Your best stat is takeaways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#freejame Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 10 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: No, you really haven't. Your best stat is takeaways. Which quite frankly, along with the other stats provided less face offs, aren’t stats you want to lead in. All they show is that you don’t control the puck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 Just now, LGR4GM said: You're deflecting. No comparables and no raw data. That's what I asked. You've ignored that hits have no correlation to winning. You've ignored he's a winger so faceoffs aren't his things. He's not a defender which using the limited data you provided shows us defenders block more shots. Again if you're blocking shots you don't have possession. Keep deflecting. You're one of many posters on this board that won't take the time to defend what they posted when it is scrutinized. Looking at playoff teams: 3 of the top 5 teams in FOW% are playoff teams. 1 of the bottom 5 teams are playoff teams. 4 of the top 5 teams in blocked shots/60min are playoff teams. 2 of the bottom 5 teams are playoff teams. 3 of the top 5 teams in hits/60min are playoff teams. 1 of the bottom 5 teams are playoff teams. 3 of the top 5 teams in takeaways/60min are playoff teams. 2 of the bottom 5 are playoff teams. So that's 65% vs 30%... significant. Now looking at top 10 overall teams in points: WSH, BOS, STL, PIT, TBL, CBJ, NYI, DAL, PHI, VAN 3 of the top 10 teams in points are in the top 5 FOW%. 0 are in the bottom 5. 4 of the top 10 teams in points are in the top 5 blocked shots/60min. 2 are in the bottom 5. 2 of the top 10 teams in points are in the top 5 hits/60min. 0 in the bottom 5. 1 of the top 10 teams in points are in the top 5 in takeaways/60min. 1 in the bottom 5. So that 50% vs 15%... again, significant. Takeaways being the least significant, really no correlation there, but the others do show there is a correlation between doing those things well and winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 Dudacek's recent several-week-long defense of Sam Reinhart is perhaps the most full, thorough, efficient, all-encompassing thing I've ever seen on display at Sabrespace. I can't consume the words fast enough 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, pi2000 said: Looking at playoff teams: 3 of the top 5 teams in FOW% are playoff teams. 1 of the bottom 5 teams are playoff teams. 4 of the top 5 teams in blocked shots/60min are playoff teams. 2 of the bottom 5 teams are playoff teams. 3 of the top 5 teams in hits/60min are playoff teams. 1 of the bottom 5 teams are playoff teams. 3 of the top 5 teams in takeaways/60min are playoff teams. 2 of the bottom 5 are playoff teams. So that's 65% vs 30%... significant. Now looking at top 10 overall teams in points: WSH, BOS, STL, PIT, TBL, CBJ, NYI, DAL, PHI, VAN 3 of the top 10 teams in points are in the top 5 FOW%. 0 are in the bottom 5. 4 of the top 10 teams in points are in the top 5 blocked shots/60min. 2 are in the bottom 5. 2 of the top 10 teams in points are in the top 5 hits/60min. 0 in the bottom 5. 1 of the top 10 teams in points are in the top 5 in takeaways/60min. 1 in the bottom 5. So that 50% vs 15%... again, significant. Takeaways being the least significant, really no correlation there, but the others do show there is a correlation between doing those things well and winning. So there's no correlation. Fantastic. I like that you did top 10 but only bottom 5. Edited February 6, 2020 by LGR4GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 31 minutes ago, KC Scouts said: Agreed on the perpetually disgruntled. but there is no indication that he has reached that point. The Sabres are under no obligation to trade him if he whines unless they can get the right compensation. WHICH IS EXACTLY THE MISTAKE THEY MADE WITH O"REILLY. Actually a contract gives you the right to tell a player tough ****, which buys you time to make the proper trade. Agreed. If a player demands a trade, you kinda have to do it eventually, but not necessarily right away. When you are able to find an acceptable deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) No insult to Liger who is doing a good job. Im referring to the fact that I feel like you could create a closed, complete, consistent set of hockey mathematics out of the logical axioms dudacek has provided Edited February 6, 2020 by Randall Flagg 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: So there's no correlation. Fantastic. I like that you did top 10 but only bottom 5. You misunderstand. I looked at two sets of teams, top 5 and bottom 5 in each of those categories. I answered the following... How many of those top 5 and bottom 5 teams are playoff teams? How many of the top 5 and bottom 5 teams also rank in the top 10 overall points standings? The evidence shows that winning teams do better in those categories, than losing teams... except for takeways/60min where there was no correlation. Edited February 6, 2020 by pi2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#freejame Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said: Dudacek's recent several-week-long defense of Sam Reinhart is perhaps the most full, thorough, efficient, all-encompassing thing I've ever seen on display at Sabrespace. I can't consume the words fast enough I can feel the fire raging inside him with every word I read, it’s been beautiful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 And pi's input shouldn't be lost or ignored either. dudacek just has me feeling like I do when watching Bolt run 9.58, or watching Eichel slice through defenders and pick corners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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