Sabres Fan in NS Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Fair enough. But it seems Eichel is very cloe to being "special" if he, in fact, isn't at present. IMO, Eichel is 'special'. What will make him 'extra special' is when / if he decides that he can do his spacial things at any and all times and in all situation all game long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trettioåtta Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Fair enough. But it seems Eichel is very cloe to being "special" if he, in fact, isn't at present. I guess this is just where we differ. Eichel is good, but i've only seen the briefest of moments of special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 The perception of Eichel as anything other than special, borderline elite young player is, IMO, a byproduct of two things: (1) the current system (and Brian Gionta can take a hike with the talk about how all systems are the same) and (2) the inability of his teammates to capitalize more consistently on what he creates (sometimes that means finish, but sometimes it just means taking advantage of space). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 The perception of Eichel as anything other than special, borderline elite young player is, IMO, a byproduct of two things: (1) the current system (and Brian Gionta can take a hike with the talk about how all systems are the same) and (2) the inability of his teammates to capitalize more consistently on what he creates (sometimes that means finish, but sometimes it just means taking advantage of space). I'd add a #3: pre-draft comparisons to McDavid, particularly among Sabres fans after we lost the lottery as a sort of coping mechanism. The expectations game set him up to disappoint in the eyes of some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 I'd add a #3: pre-draft comparisons to McDavid, particularly among Sabres fans after we lost the lottery as a sort of coping mechanism. The expectations game set him up to disappoint in the eyes of some. Yes, yes, yes. How could I omit that? Expectations are often ehhrrthang in life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trettioåtta Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 https://www.nhl.com/news/top-active-american-players-rankings/c-287030342 Matthews at 2. Eichel doesn't make the top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 https://www.nhl.com/news/top-active-american-players-rankings/c-287030342 Matthews at 2. Eichel doesn't make the top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 I'd add a #3: pre-draft comparisons to McDavid, particularly among Sabres fans after we lost the lottery as a sort of coping mechanism. The expectations game set him up to disappoint in the eyes of some. Expectations of 2+ lost seasons to get him. He better be special. He ain't there yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 https://www.nhl.com/news/top-active-american-players-rankings/c-287030342 Matthews at 2. Eichel doesn't make the top 10. So when your position gets bludgeoned with facts, you default to a comically bad list. To say nothing of Eichel's ranking...Cam Atkinson, Oshie, and JVR above the likes of Jones and Gaudreau? It's a name recognition list. Expectations of 2+ lost seasons to get him. He better be ###### special. He ain't there yet. I think that he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Except he is. Meh. It's still to early to tell, I think it's always going to be close to splitting hairs, if anything. It's probably changed slightly since Matthews just had a 3 point game since I looked, but last I check a few days ago, Eichel had a higher PPG this year than Matthews. Granted, it's Matthews' first year and Jack's second. But a lot of that is probably offset by Jack coming off the high ankle. I see more "effortlessness" in Jack's game that's hard to define, which I think is something that bodes well for the future. Yes, yes, yes. How could I omit that? Expectations are often ehhrrthang in life. And as Eichel's expectations are properly adjusted, I think he's more likely to exceed them than not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trettioåtta Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 So when your position gets bludgeoned with facts, you default to a comically bad list. To say nothing of Eichel's ranking...Cam Atkinson, Oshie, and JVR above the likes of Jones and Gaudreau? It's a name recognition list. I think that he is. My point is that I am not alone in thinking Eichel isn't special yet. Eichel is probably top five for name recognition. I don't think my point did get destroyed. Eichel is on track to be a decent player, I'm not denying that. I'm saying he isn't enough for years of suffering. He alone doesn't justify the tank. The best move we made during the tank is to trade for ROR, not draft Eichel imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 https://www.nhl.com/news/top-active-american-players-rankings/c-287030342 Matthews at 2. Eichel doesn't make the top 10. That list a objectively a joke. Wow, it's actually incredible. I knew we'd be here with Reinhart - forever under-appreciated league wide. But I think the time is now to accept that it's going to happen to Jack, too. For whatever reason, it's been decided by league wide media that his recognition will fall by the wayside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 My point is that I am not alone in thinking Eichel isn't special yet. Eichel is probably top five for name recognition. I don't think my point did get destroyed. Eichel is on track to be a decent player , I'm not denying that. I'm saying he isn't enough for years of suffering. He alone doesn't justify the tank. The best move we made during the tank is to trade for ROR, not draft Eichel imo. It did, you just don't recognize it because you have such strong priors to the contrary. Know how I know that? The second half of what I highlighted. To say that Eichel is "on track to be a decent player" is to ignore that he already is, at minimum, very good. He's 35th in the entire league in points per game. Ahead of guys like Voracek, Gaudreau, Hall, Kuznetsov, Getzlaf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 In a terrible offense no less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 It did, you just don't recognize it because you have such strong priors to the contrary. Know how I know that? The second half of what I highlighted. To say that Eichel is "on track to be a decent player" is to ignore that he already is, at minimum, very good. He's 35th in the entire league in points per game. Ahead of guys like Voracek, Gaudreau, Hall, Kuznetsov, Getzlaf. I think he's got the talent to keep with Matthews (not McJesus though). What he lacks is something I'm not able to adequately define. I'll simply call it the "it" factor. And I can't put my finger on whether it is mental, physical, or what. It's not so much that I am disappointed in Jack, as it is I am disappointed that the tank didn't result in us getting a player with "it". He'll probably end up the 3rd best center this franchise has ever had. Maybe press for 2nd. For what we went through, I'm not satisifed unless we got Gil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 In a terrible offense no less I wasn't going to go there, but...yea. He dictates the entire game with the puck on his stick. He can single handedly change a game with one shift, and help get a win when we don't deserve it. We have a coach who wouldn't recognize even strength scoring existed if it stuck a finger in his pooper. We have a blue line that is offensive in the wrong sense of the word. Oh, and he suffered an injury which is hell to come back from in any reasonable length of time. And he's still one of the most productive players in the league. While I'm all hot and bothered, he was not the only product of the tank. Risto, Reinhart, the assets to acquire Kane and O'Reilly. None of that happens without tanking. The "we wasted two years and only got Eichel" is utter hogwash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Errors in the article as well. It says Jack got 5 total "points". But he received an 8th and 9th place vote from two different people, as you can see in the individual listings. According to their scoring system, that should have been worth 4 and 3 points, respectively. Not that it matters. But, take THAT, James Van Reimsdyk! :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 I think he's got the talent to keep with Matthews (not McJesus though). What he lacks is something I'm not able to adequately define. I'll simply call it the "it" factor. And I can't put my finger on whether it is mental, physical, or what. It's not so much that I am disappointed in Jack, as it is I am disappointed that the tank didn't result in us getting a player with "it". He'll probably end up the 3rd best center this franchise has ever had. Maybe press for 2nd. For what we went through, I'm not satisifed unless we got Gil. The "it" is hockey sense, IMO. And I think he'll go down as the second best Sabre ever, and best forward. Errors in the article as well. It says Jack got 5 total "points". But he received an 8th and 9th place vote from two different people, as you can see in the individual listings. According to their scoring system, that should have been worth 4 and 3 points, respectively. Not that it matters. But, take THAT, James Van Reimsdyk! :/ I can't get over JVR. I mean, really? Not to mention Kesler. 2009 Kesler? Yea, sure. 2017? Uh, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) The "it" is hockey sense, IMO. And I think he'll go down as the second best Sabre ever, and best forward. I can't get over JVR. I mean, really? Not to mention Kesler. 2009 Kesler? Yea, sure. 2017? Uh, no. So you must see him gaining that hockey sense relatively soon, then. I like the projection. And Kesler is super high on the list, too. Weird. I legitimately chuckled when I saw JVR listed ahead of Jack. Edited February 23, 2017 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Eichel is on track to be a decent player, I'm not denying that. Bruh. ... Bruh. ... BRUH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Bruh. ... Bruh. ... BRUH. Maybe if he would have said, "Eichel is at least on track to be a decent player". Then at least it would be true. Like saying, "There are over 100 bears in North America." It's true!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 My point is that I am not alone in thinking Eichel isn't special yet. Eichel is probably top five for name recognition. I don't think my point did get destroyed. Eichel is on track to be a decent player, I'm not denying that. I'm saying he isn't enough for years of suffering. He alone doesn't justify the tank. The best move we made during the tank is to trade for ROR, not draft Eichel imo. To the bolded, what is the subset you are placing Eichel in top 5 of name recognition? NHL, Sabres, young forwards, American born young players, NHLers w/ college experience? Not positive that he makes top 5 on more than 2 of those lists; definitely not more than 3 of them. Agreed that they really needed to have more than Eichel to justify the tank. (The decision to & implementation of the tank was awful & rightfully got Regier canned.) However, once the decision to tank was made & the process begun, they needed to see it through because anything less than Eichel as the centerpiece would've been criminal. And the tank did give them more than Eichel. Also included are (at minimum) Reinhart, Nylander, Lehner, Larsson, O'Reilly, Kane, Fasching, & Bogosian. As to the rest of your post, True had a very good succinct reply that represents my thoughts very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 So you must see him gaining that hockey sense relatively soon, then. I like the projection. Yea. Essentially I don't think he has as natural of sense/vision as Matthews, thus requiring more experience to fully excel the way his skills are capable of in the NHL. Has to see it before he gets it, if that makes any sense at all. I see him making fewer unforced errors this year than last. If he hadn't gotten hurt, I think he'd have at least flirted with 80 points. I expect next year he'll be even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 The tank was the smartest thing this franchise has done in over 20 years, at least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 To the bolded, what is the subset you are placing Eichel in top 5 of name recognition? NHL, Sabres, young forwards, American born young players, NHLers w/ college experience? Not positive that he makes top 5 on more than 2 of those lists; definitely not more than 3 of them. Agreed that they really needed to have more than Eichel to justify the tank. (The decision to & implementation of the tank was awful & rightfully got Regier canned.) However, once the decision to tank was made & the process begun, they needed to see it through because anything less than Eichel as the centerpiece would've been criminal. And the tank did give them more than Eichel. Also included are (at minimum) Reinhart, Nylander, Lehner, Larsson, O'Reilly, Kane, Fasching, & Bogosian. As to the rest of your post, True had a very good succinct reply that represents my thoughts very well. Right. How does that song from Monty Python go again? How would we be looking if we had Dylan Strome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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