John Vogl following the Ottawa game

[HopefulFuture]

From John Vogl

 

OTTAWA — Let the goaltending controversy officially begin in Buffalo.

 

After a week of chatter in Sabreland about whether Jhonas Enroth should supplant Ryan Miller in the Buffalo net, the rookie did just that Saturday night in Ottawa. Enroth started for the second straight night, a shocking appearance that altered the schedule coach Lindy Ruff had set up earlier in the week.

 

How shocking? For the first time in nearly five years, Miller sat out back-to-back games while healthy. He hadn't done so since Jan. 30-Feb. 1, 2007, when Ruff gave the goaltender extra rest upon returning from his start in the NHL All-Star Game.

 

Enroth made 25 saves through regulation and overtime, then he stopped four more in the six-round shootout to lift the Sabres to a 3-2 victory. Derek Roy scored the winner for the Sabres, who won their second straight after a two-game losing streak.

 

Miller got off the team bus and walked alone into the Sabres' dressing room in Scotiabank Place with an angry look on his face. About an hour later, it was easy to tell why.

 

Enroth led the Sabres onto the ice for the pregame warm-up, which is always the duty of the starting goaltender. Soon after, he was officially announced as a starter for the fourth time this season.

 

"He's been going well. I thought he deserved it. He's given us a lot of good efforts. We won. He's obviously fresh," Ruff said. "We haven't played very much. I just gave him the nod, a little bone for as well as he's been playing."

 

*****on a side note*****

This did belong in my thread on Miller vs Enroth, but apparantly it's been locked, I have no idea as to why, but I found it interesting the decisions being made by Lindy to go with the "win first" mentality over experience.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Enough already......... :wallbash:

 

We know your crusade.

[donteatyellowsnow]

Enough already......... :wallbash:

 

We know your crusade.

 

wah

[Andrew Amerk]

Enough already......... :wallbash:

 

We know your crusade.

 

Is it...

 

To prove anyone who wins the Vezina sucks?

[Marvelo]

I'm surprised any player went on or off record admitting that the team plays harder for Enroth than for Miller.

It doesn't seem professional to say that out loud to a reporter.

 

Seems to me if you play Miller four games in a row, and he wins the first three, he'll automatically lose game 4. Don't know if it's mental toughness or just being tired...?

 

I've found some links discussing Miller's (early season?) struggles. One of them had this line that I found most interesting:

 

...Miller knows he can’t get away with any more lazy or inattentive practices and games.

 

http://www.dobberhockey.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4077:poolie-killers&catid=31:justin-goldman&Itemid=100

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/12120/daily-debate-what-do-with-the-struggling-ryan-miller-and-martin-brodeur

[RR61]

I have nothing against Lindy deciding to go with the hot goalie.

 

What I find interesting is that Vogl (or his editor) revised the article to tone down his stilted comments about Miller's reaction to Enroth getting the start. (Someone pointed this out on another board.)

 

Here is what the morning paper edition of the story said:

 

.....Miller got off the bus and walked alone into the Sabres' dressing room room in Scotiabank Place with an angry look on his face. About an hour later, it was easy to say why. (article then discusses that Enroth was starting the game).

 

 

 

Now, here is what the current online amended version of the story says:

 

.....Although Ruff said Miller took the news well, the goalie got off the team bus and walked alone into the Sabres' dressing room in Scotiabank Place with an unhappy look on his face. About an hour later, it was easy to tell why. (article then discusses that Enroth was starting the game).

 

 

I'd like to know if Vogl talked to Miller at all to find out if he was really angry or unhappy. It bothers me when reporters play pop psychologists and pretend they can mind read how someone is feeling. I think that some of the media in Buffalo is relishing the fact that they can create a faux controversy by claiming Miller is reacting poorly.

[Assquatch]

I'd like to know if Vogl talked to Miller at all to find out if he was really angry or unhappy. It bothers me when reporters play pop psychologists and pretend they can mind read how someone is feeling. I think that some of the media in Buffalo is relishing the fact that they can create a faux controversy by claiming Miller is reacting poorly.

Are you suggesting that Vogl should have asked Miller how he was feeling? That didn't go so well last time.

[RR61]

That's his job isn't it? Instead of assuming he knows how someone feels. Then if Miller acts badly, he has a basis in fact to report that.

[HopefulFuture]

I don't think it matters either way on how Miller felt, atleast not for the Ottawa game itself. It could be an issue going forward, but what I took away from this was Ruff's decision to go after the win as opposed to attempting to get Miller on his feet again.

 

It really surprised me and kinda said to me that the team is serious about winning right now. The last time we did this Miller v Enroth thing, people got bent out of shape, so let's take a look at it from a different angle for change.

Given the inexperience of Enroth and the teams play infront of him as opposed to Miller, I'm asking if the team may get "too comfortable" infront of Enroth at some time and begin to display that lazy play we've seen infront of Miller from time to time?

 

But that aside, like I said, I was suprised at Lindy's decision to go for the win over the player issue, it shows me in any event, some promise.

[That Aud Smell]

I'm surprised any player went on or off record admitting that the team plays harder for Enroth than for Miller.

 

It doesn't seem professional to say that out loud to a reporter.

as i suggested in the GDT, it's not clear whether the player was noting the discrepancy and saying it was unacceptable/ridiculous that there's any difference between how the team plays in front of one guy versus the other. seems to me that vogl intentionally left it vague in order to stir the pot.

 

I've found some links discussing Miller's (early season?) struggles. One of them had this line that I found most interesting:

 

...Miller knows he can’t get away with any more lazy or inattentive practices and games.

i don't find that quote interesting, i find it ill-informed. say what you will about miller, but the guy can't be criticized for being lazy or inattentive. call him tightly wound, moody, or defensive, but you can't call him lazy or inattentive.

 

I'd like to know if Vogl talked to Miller at all to find out if he was really angry or unhappy. It bothers me when reporters play pop psychologists and pretend they can mind read how someone is feeling. I think that some of the media in Buffalo is relishing the fact that they can create a faux controversy by claiming Miller is reacting poorly.

i think the vogl/miller thing is very real, of interest, and warrants its own thread. i also think that vogl is evincing a bit of a grudge against #30 -- there was this bit on the blog as well (the bolded piece really caught my eye): When Miller was approached by The News for an interview, he gave a surprised look at being desired for questioning. He answered the first question, "Were you healthy enough to play?" with a quick "yes" and then retreated to the back changing room.

 

the vogl vendetta?

[LastPommerFan]

All of this is why I don't think anyone on the outside can really think they know what is in Miller's head or how he interacts with the team. When you see him with the reporters, he is with a group of people for ho he has no respect (and some might say rightfully so) and the stories they print are usually a little slanted.

[sabre4life]

This isn't a controversy here... Simply put Miller's head isn't on the game, and we all know how fragile mentally he is, things get to him and he openly voices it. What he should have done after the Philly game was be professional instead of whining about the fans booing. We all know he can make some difficult saves and I find he does this often... what irritates me about him is that he doesn't make the easy saves when it counts. I'd much rather him not stop the very difficult save but at the same time make all the easy ones.

 

I'm not down on the guy, I just think he needs to juggle his personal and professional life better, Lindy did the right thing and started JE back to back, send Miller the message "Stop F'n around". He hasn't been the same since Montreal. Maybe he's mad at the entire team for not showing up in that game.

 

It is his responsibility to stop the puck regardless of how the team is playing in front of you. He'll be fine if he didn't take this little pine ride as personal instead of a wake up call.

[korab rules]

All of this is why I don't think anyone on the outside can really think they know what is in Miller's head or how he interacts with the team. When you see him with the reporters, he is with a group of people for ho he has no respect (and some might say rightfully so) and the stories they print are usually a little slanted.

Yup - we get our information through their lens, which colors the the information we receive. The media doesn't like Miller, because he isn't warm and fuzzy and accommodating. He holds the media in contempt, as I am sure most professional athletes do, but isn't very good at hiding it from them.

 

You wouldn't like it if someone who could never, ever do your job at the level you do it questioned your work every day, questioned what time you showed up for work, how productive you were, how much time you spent on the internet, and whether you spent enough off work hours thinking about your work.

[korab rules]

This isn't a controversy here... Simply put Miller's head isn't on the game, and we all know how fragile mentally he is, things get to him and he openly voices it. What he should have done after the Philly game was be professional instead of whining about the fans booing. We all know he can make some difficult saves and I find he does this often... what irritates me about him is that he doesn't make the easy saves when it counts. I'd much rather him not stop the very difficult save but at the same time make all the easy ones.

 

I'm not down on the guy, I just think he needs to juggle his personal and professional life better, Lindy did the right thing and started JE back to back, send Miller the message "Stop F'n around". He hasn't been the same since Montreal. Maybe he's mad at the entire team for not showing up in that game.

 

It is his responsibility to stop the puck regardless of how the team is playing in front of you. He'll be fine if he didn't take this little pine ride as personal instead of a wake up call.

It's uninformed posts like this that make me want to :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:

 

Where on earth do people come up with this stuff?

[That Aud Smell]

I just think he needs to juggle his personal and professional life better

send Miller the message "Stop F'n around".

 

i'll feed the troll: please explain and substantiate the statements above.

[Assquatch]

Yup - we get our information through their lens, which colors the the information we receive. The media doesn't like Miller, because he isn't warm and fuzzy and accommodating. He holds the media in contempt, as I am sure most professional athletes do, but isn't very good at hiding it from them.

 

You wouldn't like it if someone who could never, ever do your job at the level you do it questioned your work every day, questioned what time you showed up for work, how productive you were, how much time you spent on the internet, and whether you spent enough off work hours thinking about your work.

 

Point taken and I hope this doesn't come across as argumentative but to parallel this with my job - you just described the HR department. I feel the same way about them but I make sure to put on a fake smile and make small talk with them as I know what pissing them off can do.

[korab rules]

Point taken and I hope this doesn't come across as argumentative but to parallel this with my job - you just described the HR department. I feel the same way about them but I make sure to put on a fake smile and make small talk with them as I know what pissing them off can do.

There's a difference - your employer hired HR to keep an eye on you.

 

If Miller were treating Jim Corsi with contempt then we would have a problem.

[sabre4life]

i'll feed the troll: please explain and substantiate the statements above.

 

Ruff Quote: "He's been going well. I thought he deserved it. He's given us a lot of good efforts. We won. He's obviously fresh," Ruff said. "We haven't played very much. I just gave him the nod, a little bone for as well as he's been playing."

 

Isn't it obvious what message Ruff sent to Miller? Sure I'm reading into the words a little... But you and your buddy with the Porno avatar need accept the fact Miller is off his game and live with the fact the Enroth is capable of carrying the load, until Miller takes the binky out of his mouth...

 

Enroth was drafted in the 2nd

Miller was drafted in the 5th

 

This should tell you something... I'm not advocating Enroth over Miller, all I'm saying is Miller has other things on his mind than Hockey. This isn't obvious? Look what happened to Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson in a mentally tough game....

Why is it that Enroth is doing better than Miller with the same people in front of him??? Watch the Philly game over again if you can't see this? Let the Columbus game speak for itself... half hearted effort by the forwards and defence yet Enroth won the game???

 

You can commence your flame now...

[donteatyellowsnow]

This isn't a controversy here... Simply put Miller's head isn't on the game, and we all know how fragile mentally he is, things get to him and he openly voices it. What he should have done after the Philly game was be professional instead of whining about the fans booing. We all know he can make some difficult saves and I find he does this often... what irritates me about him is that he doesn't make the easy saves when it counts. I'd much rather him not stop the very difficult save but at the same time make all the easy ones.

 

I'm not down on the guy, I just think he needs to juggle his personal and professional life better, Lindy did the right thing and started JE back to back, send Miller the message "Stop F'n around". He hasn't been the same since Montreal. Maybe he's mad at the entire team for not showing up in that game.It is his responsibility to stop the puck regardless of how the team is playing in front of you. He'll be fine if he didn't take this little pine ride as personal instead of a wake up call.

 

 

I heard awhile back that Paul Hamilton reported, that before the MTL game the team lifted weights the same day in the morning. That would explain them not showing up and being shot for that game.

[spndnchz]

chief among others, we have the "fragile little kids" bit back in february 2010. talk about projection.

 

miller will pay occasional lip service to "it starts with me" or "we need to be better, that includes myself," but i think 2 out of 3 fans hear his comments in the aggregate the same way: he doesn't like to accept responsibility for goals and losses, at least not when speaking with the media. he talks an awful lot about the absence of backside support and a failure to play the system, but, when it comes to his own performance, he'll offer gems such as "pucks were finding their way around me" (or words to like effect, remember that one?).

 

i saw what rickshaw saw as well, and thought that vogl was taking a bit of shot there at miller (remember when miller ripped him a new one after the collapse against the islanders in february 2011?). that tidbit is buried at the end of the story; it appears out of the blue, given the headline and focus of the story (the return of roy and stafford to the score sheet). the unattributed observation is also quoted in a potentially misleading way. was the player saying "gee, you see how hard we play for jonas when he's in there; we need to play the same way for miller." quite possibly. or, as vogl seems to suggest, was the player suggesting that the players play harder for enroth because of some underlying preference for the fresh-faced, even-keeled youngster? unlikely - but the implication was left there to hang.

 

I pulled this from the GDT.

 

We need to be careful about assumptions here. Much of the reporting after games is done to get a byline and get some quick quotes to make the deadline.

 

Vogl most likely asked the question with an answer. "It seems you guys play better in front of Enroth" with a player responding "It seems that way".

[LastPommerFan]

Yup - we get our information through their lens, which colors the the information we receive. The media doesn't like Miller, because he isn't warm and fuzzy and accommodating. He holds the media in contempt, as I am sure most professional athletes do, but isn't very good at hiding it from them.

 

You wouldn't like it if someone who could never, ever do your job at the level you do it questioned your work every day, questioned what time you showed up for work, how productive you were, how much time you spent on the internet, and whether you spent enough off work hours thinking about your work.

 

This is exactly why I hate my boss.

 

Point taken and I hope this doesn't come across as argumentative but to parallel this with my job - you just described the HR department. I feel the same way about them but I make sure to put on a fake smile and make small talk with them as I know what pissing them off can do.

 

John Vogl has absolutely no impact on whether Ryan Miller wins another game or ever signs another contract again. I don't think he(miller) cares.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Yup - we get our information through their lens, which colors the the information we receive. The media doesn't like Miller, because he isn't warm and fuzzy and accommodating. He holds the media in contempt, as I am sure most professional athletes do, but isn't very good at hiding it from them.

 

You wouldn't like it if someone who could never, ever do your job at the level you do it questioned your work every day, questioned what time you showed up for work, how productive you were, how much time you spent on the internet, and whether you spent enough off work hours thinking about your work.

 

What if the editor told Jerry Sullivan they weren't going to use his column on the Bills this week, then Sullivan proceeded to go to his desk, slump in his chair, pull a baseball cap down over his eyes and pull a turtleneck up over his chin....sit there for 3 hours.....then when Danny Gare called him for a scheduled interview, Sullivan talked in a short, depressive monotone, without any thought, and resented the fact he had to "deal" with Danny after his feelings had been oh so hurt?

 

I think some of the media has put up with an elitest attitude for years, and now that it's a little bit of open season...they are using the tools at their disposal much in the same way a player can make life tough on a reporter by not playing ball. And Vogl is a Sabres homer......

[That Aud Smell]

I just think he needs to juggle his personal and professional life better

send Miller the message "Stop F'n around".

i'll feed the troll: please explain and substantiate the statements above.

Ruff Quote: "He's been going well. I thought he deserved it. He's given us a lot of good efforts. We won. He's obviously fresh," Ruff said. "We haven't played very much. I just gave him the nod, a little bone for as well as he's been playing."

 

This should tell you something... I'm not advocating Enroth over Miller, all I'm saying is Miller has other things on his mind than Hockey. This isn't obvious? Look what happened to Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson in a mentally tough game....

Why is it that Enroth is doing better than Miller with the same people in front of him??? Watch the Philly game over again if you can't see this? Let the Columbus game speak for itself... half hearted effort by the forwards and defence yet Enroth won the game???

 

yeesh. i was specifically asking for back-up on your salvo about how miller needs to balance his personal and professional life and the corresponding implication that miller needs to "stop f'n around."

 

it appears that there is no substantiation for your position, to the extent that i understand it. (why, precisely, should i be looking to woods and mickelson in order to understand miller?)

 

it may be that you're talking about some sort of marriage hang-over. i have heard that point kicked around before regarding athletes, and i would not blame miller if he's a little jelly-legged from marital relations.

 

 

... although i do not think that that is what's going on.

 

I pulled this from the GDT.

 

We need to be careful about assumptions here. Much of the reporting after games is done to get a byline and get some quick quotes to make the deadline.

 

Vogl most likely asked the question with an answer. "It seems you guys play better in front of Enroth" with a player responding "It seems that way".

:blink:

[dEnnis the Menace]

Enroth was drafted in the 2nd

Miller was drafted in the 5th

 

This should tell you something... I'm not advocating Enroth over Miller, all I'm saying is Miller has other things on his mind than Hockey. This isn't obvious? Look what happened to Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson in a mentally tough game....

Why is it that Enroth is doing better than Miller with the same people in front of him??? Watch the Philly game over again if you can't see this? Let the Columbus game speak for itself... half hearted effort by the forwards and defence yet Enroth won the game???

 

1) where someone is drafted isn't as big of a deal as it used to be (outside of the first round), as most of the NHL now uses a farm team to develop talent. Miller being a fifth round pick and jhonas a second has absolutely no bearing on the conversation, especially since they were taken in different drafts.

 

2) Why is it that Enroth is doing better than Miller? I have no idea. But in the Philly game, and in the other two games, the defense was definitely playing a different game, so that's a part of it.

[jad1]

No doubt Miller's play has been substandard during the 1-4 stretch; and Enroth looks like the real deal, but I think that Ruff is sending a message to the entire team with Miller's benching.

 

There are a bunch of players who have struggled just as much as Miller, and Ruff is trying to catch their attention. He put them through the cardio-practice, and now he making the statement that winning is more important than a player's perceived position on the team.

 

Fans and media focus on Miller, but the bigger picture is that Ruff is being proactive in addressing the team's first slump of the season. The Miller/Enroth situation will resolve itself to the benefit of the team. The more important story is how the rest of the team responds.