Don't forget to vote!

[korab rules]

And would you still feel the same way if the person mowing his lawn is a 13 year old kid learning the value of hard work and saving for something he wants rather than asking his parents to buy it for him? Or would you rather he fill out an I-9 and let Uncle Sam take a cut?

No I wouldn't feel the same way about that. But he said "the guy who mows my lawn off the books. " I took that to mean a guy, not a 13 year old kid.

[Patty16]

No. Income (corporate and personal) federal tax revenues increased by 40% in the period between 2004 and 2007 substantially due to the 2003 tax cuts, because the cuts stimulated the economy. I don't agree with everything Korab has said in this thread, but he's right that the Bush-era deficit increases (already dwarfed by the Obama-era increases, btw) resulted from drunken sailor spending binges, not from tax cuts.

 

 

The stimulus didn't do a GD thing other than line the pockets of Democratic supporters. "Jobs saved or created," my butt.

 

You are really saying the 2003 tax cuts have not contributed to the deficit???? find a credible source that shows that, its fundamentally wrong.

 

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-bush-policies-deficits-2010-6

 

Even Reps dont argue the tax cuts dont contribute to the deficit.

 

How did the tax cuts stimulate the economy? in what way?

[korab rules]

You should read up on the tea party then kind sir. First, they are not grass roots, most of their candidates were funded by large corporate donors.

Its really hard to distinguish what they are calling for from with the Reps stand for. Tea partiers calling for small govt back to the constitution(when most fundamentally dont understand the document, at least their candidates)

 

Before they had candidates or their candidates had corporate backers they sprung up out of nowhere with nothing more in common than collective disgust for what they saw happening to our country.

 

It was not so long ago that the use of the term "grass roots" seems inappropriate.

 

Most tea party members don't understand the Constitution? Is that any different than any other party? That short document with only 26 amendments has spawned almost 250 years of jurisprudence, much of it with dissenting opinions from the nine wisest jurists in the nation. Who does understand the Constitution?

[Patty16]

Before they had candidates or their candidates had corporate backers they sprung up out of nowhere with nothing more in common than collective disgust for what they saw happening to our country.

 

It was not so long ago that the use of the term "grass roots" seems inappropriate.

 

Most tea party members don't understand the Constitution? Is that any different than any other party? That short document with only 26 amendments has spawned almost 250 years of jurisprudence, much of it with dissenting opinions from the nine wisest jurists in the nation. Who does understand the Constitution?

 

 

I for one do, but that's based on my background.

 

Its diff when your party runs on the holy sanctity of the Constitution. Not every politician needs to be a legal scholar, but if you claim to hate judicial activists and want to protect the constitution you damn well better have some idea of what you're talking about.

 

Thats my point. The one tea party sign is a good indicator of the movement 'obama is a socialist but dont touch my medicare' or something to that effect.

[SwampD]

No, we made money on the loans to banks to keep them afloat. The damage to our economy and everyone's pocketbook continues, and has to be in the trillions by now.

 

Since when is Bush a Billionaire?

 

You proudly pay your lawn guy under the table. Awesome. :death:

I actually wasn't talking about Bush. I also mow my own lawn. I was just making a point. Menial jobs done by illegal immigrants and food stamps are not why the economy is bad or why my taxes are high (and for the record, I have no problem with the amount I pay in taxes)

[korab rules]

I for one do, but that's based on my background.

 

Its diff when your party runs on the holy sanctity of the Constitution. Not every politician needs to be a legal scholar, but if you claim to hate judicial activists and want to protect the constitution you damn well better have some idea of what you're talking about.

 

Thats my point. The one tea party sign is a good indicator of the movement 'obama is a socialist but dont touch my medicare' or something to that effect.

 

Then you should take your rightful place at the right hand of Justice Scalia. Or, based on the tenor of your posts, the left hand of Justice Kagan.

 

If that sign appeared at a tea party event, you wouldn't suspect it belonged to a protester?

[nfreeman]

You should read up on the tea party then kind sir. First, they are not grass roots, most of their candidates were funded by large corporate donors.

Its really hard to distinguish what they are calling for from with the Reps stand for. Tea partiers calling for small govt back to the constitution(when most fundamentally dont understand the document, at least their candidates)

The bolded part is nothing more than simplistic Democratic party spin. FTR, the biggest "corporate" donor in this election was the public-sector employee union, which donated over 90% of its cash to Democrats.

 

You are correct that their platform -- ie limited government, repeal of Obamacare, reduced taxes and reduced spending -- heavily overlaps with the Republicans' at this point. That is because the Republicans were savvy enough to realize it and embrace it. I wish I were more confident that the Republicans were going to stick to it.

 

You are really saying the 2003 tax cuts have not contributed to the deficit???? find a credible source that shows that, its fundamentally wrong.

 

http://www.cbpp.org/...fa=view&id=3036

http://www.businessi...deficits-2010-6

 

Even Reps dont argue the tax cuts dont contribute to the deficit.

 

How did the tax cuts stimulate the economy? in what way?

First, if you want to discuss the credibility of sources, you might note that the 2 "sources" you linked include these little nuggets:

 

The CBPP focuses on lower to middle income issues and may be directly involved with the Democratic Party.

 

Obama Budget Reduces Deficit by $1.3 Trillion over Next Decade Compared to Current Policies

 

Second, tax cuts stimulate the economy by keeping money in the hands of the private sector, which uses it to invest, spend and save (and savings are in turn invested by the savings institutions), which creates jobs, which creates income, which creates more investment, spending and savings, etc.

 

Third, "Reps" absolutely do believe that tax cuts increase tax revenue and thus reduce deficits -- as long as spending is controlled. It's a core part of their economic approach. linkage. For example:

 

That's been the majority Republican view for some time," McConnell told TPMDC. "That there's no evidence whatsoever that the Bush tax cuts actually diminished revenue. They increased revenue, because of the vibrancy of these tax cuts in the economy. So I think what Senator Kyl was expressing was the view of virtually every Republican on that subject." McConnell's argument is that even though the government would be forgoing hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue by extending the tax cuts on relatively wealthy Americans, that loss will be more than offset by the growth spurred by keeping the money in taxpayers' pockets.

 

 

[Patty16]

Then you should take your rightful place at the right hand of Justice Scalia. Or, based on the tenor of your posts, the left hand of Justice Kagan.

 

If that sign appeared at a tea party event, you wouldn't suspect it belonged to a protester?

 

Ah dont read too much into my tenor. I am not a fan of either of those justices.

 

The sign was from a tea party supporter.

[korab rules]

I actually wasn't talking about Bush. I also mow my own lawn. I was just making a point. Menial jobs done by illegal immigrants and food stamps are not why the economy is bad or why my taxes are high (and for the record, I have no problem with the amount I pay in taxes)

 

Then who were you talking about?

 

Menial jobs aren't menial to the person who feeds their family with them. Perhaps its views like that and too much reality TV that make people sit on the couch and collect a check from the gov't instead of performing that job and using it to improve their position.

 

Food stamps may not be why our economy is currently suffering, but they, along with all the other gov't handouts, sure as hell have contributed to our 15 trillion dollar national debt that my grand kids will still be paying off.

 

I would feel better about my taxes if I felt they weren't being pissed away. Its not their money, its OUR money.

[SwampD]

The bolded part is nothing more than simplistic Democratic party spin. FTR, the biggest "corporate" donor in this election was the public-sector employee union, which donated over 90% of its cash to Democrats.

 

You are correct that their platform -- ie limited government, repeal of Obamacare, reduced taxes and reduced spending -- heavily overlaps with the Republicans' at this point. That is because the Republicans were savvy enough to realize it and embrace it. I wish I were more confident that the Republicans were going to stick to it.

 

 

First, if you want to discuss the credibility of sources, you might note that the 2 "sources" you linked include these little nuggets:

 

 

 

 

 

Second, tax cuts stimulate the economy by keeping money in the hands of the private sector, which uses it to invest, spend and save (and savings are in turn invested by the savings institutions), which creates jobs, which creates income, which creates more investment, spending and savings, etc.

 

Third, "Reps" absolutely do believe that tax cuts increase tax revenue and thus reduce deficits -- as long as spending is controlled. It's a core part of their economic approach. linkage. For example:

I don't know from that, but I do know this. In my liftime, the two times when Supply Side Economics (some call it Trickle Down economics, others call it Tinkle On economics) was the rule of the day, those eras ended with a financial crisis and a war in the middle east. Take from that what you will.

[Patty16]

Then who were you talking about?

 

Menial jobs aren't menial to the person who feeds their family with them. Perhaps its views like that and too much reality TV that make people sit on the couch and collect a check from the gov't instead of performing that job and using it to improve their position.

 

Food stamps may not be why our economy is currently suffering, but they, along with all the other gov't handouts, sure as hell have contributed to our 15 trillion dollar national debt that my grand kids will still be paying off.

 

I would feel better about my taxes if I felt they weren't being pissed away. Its not their money, its OUR money.

 

 

The same people clamoring for the wars are generally the saem who are fiscal hawks clamoring about taxes and deficits.

 

Except when they are in power deficits dont matter, no R prez has reduced the deficit over their term in our lifetime, if ever.

Look it up, for all the talk about balanced budgets and fiscal responsibility on Clinton for all his shortcoming balanced the budget.

 

Yet for all the crying about the bailout all those politicians readily turned around and took the money, went home and bragged to voters about the pork.

[korab rules]

Ah dont read too much into my tenor. I am not a fan of either of those justices.

 

The sign was from a tea party supporter.

 

Do you really believe this? Or do you just want to believe this?

[Patty16]

Do you really believe this? Or do you just want to believe this?

 

No one has ever disputed this, it was an only lady in a wheelchair who gave a subsequent interview.

She was not some far left loonery liberal mole placed to have her pic taken so she could be ridiculed. The sentiment expressed on the sign was echoed in many town halls and rallies. Many people, on all sides, dont know what they are talking about. When they are angry, they know less. Kinda like how taxes havent gone up since Bush left office. They havent.

 

Not every moronic sign at a tea party is a plant, as many in the movement claim.

[korab rules]

The same people clamoring for the wars are generally the saem who are fiscal hawks clamoring about taxes and deficits.

 

Except when they are in power deficits dont matter, no R prez has reduced the deficit over their term in our lifetime, if ever.

Look it up, for all the talk about balanced budgets and fiscal responsibility on Clinton for all his shortcoming balanced the budget.

 

Yet for all the crying about the bailout all those politicians readily turned around and took the money, went home and bragged to voters about the pork.

 

Both sides are to blame. Politicians are like diapers: they should be changed regularly and for the same reasons. No news flashes here.

 

The hill we are going down seems to be getting steeper. We can't keep adding 1.5 trillion in new debt, not to mention interest on old debt, every year.

[Weave]

No one has ever disputed this, it was an only lady in a wheelchair who gave a subsequent interview.

She was not some far left loonery liberal mole placed to have her pic taken so she could be ridiculed. The sentiment expressed on the sign was echoed in many town halls and rallies. Many people, on all sides, dont know what they are talking about. When they are angry, they know less. Kinda like how taxes havent gone up since Bush left office. They havent.

 

Not every moronic sign at a tea party is a plant, as many in the movement claim.

 

Every large gathering has a few nutjobs that show up. THat doesn't make them representative of the group. Not by a long shot. If you are gonna characterize the tea party by a particular protester you'd better be willing to accept the same back when nutjobs from the left are used to characterize your party of choice.

 

 

Just sayin'....

[Patty16]

Every large group gathering has a few nutjobs that show up. THat doesn't make them representative of the group. Not by a long shot. If you are gonna characterize the tea party by a particular protester you'd better be willing to accept the same back when nutjobs from the left are used to characterize your party of choice.

 

Does this guy represent your party? Cuz he was photographed at an anti-Bush rally in SF a while back.

 

Just sayin'....

 

No i dont support things like that, but its not analogous either. Vulgarity vs ignorance. I am not in a party. I already mentioned your point as well about both sides. My real point was their candidates running on a platform of which they knew little, ie the constitution.

[korab rules]

No one has ever disputed this, it was an only lady in a wheelchair who gave a subsequent interview.

She was not some far left loonery liberal mole placed to have her pic taken so she could be ridiculed. The sentiment expressed on the sign was echoed in many town halls and rallies. Many people, on all sides, dont know what they are talking about. When they are angry, they know less. Kinda like how taxes havent gone up since Bush left office. They havent.

 

Not every moronic sign at a tea party is a plant, as many in the movement claim.

 

I can't find any media report for the incident you are referring to, so I don't know if its been disputed, but frankly, it doesn't much matter. As you point out, there are idiots on all sides, and dumb signs at all rallies.

[korab rules]

No i dont support things like that, but its not analogous either. Vulgarity vs ignorance. I am not in a party. I already mentioned your point as well about both sides. My real point was their candidates running on a platform of which they knew little, ie the constitution.

 

Of which who knew little? The tea partiers or the candidates? That's a pretty broad brush you have in your hand...

 

You think even a majority of the members of any party have a serious understanding of their party's platform and how it will be effectuated? Or an understanding of the constitution?

[Patty16]

I can't find any media report for the incident you are referring to, so I don't know if its been disputed, but frankly, it doesn't much matter. As you point out, there are idiots on all sides, and dumb signs at all rallies.

I cant find the report, but i believe this is the sign, http://markc1.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451bb2969e20120a5c02dda970c-800wi

 

My point is really that its one thing to run on things you disagree with, social programs vs tax cuts and be able to talk about those things with some level of intelligence as opposed to running on a platform you are unable to support with any facts.

[nfreeman]

Every large gathering has a few nutjobs that show up. THat doesn't make them representative of the group. Not by a long shot. If you are gonna characterize the tea party by a particular protester you'd better be willing to accept the same back when nutjobs from the left are used to characterize your party of choice.

 

 

Just sayin'....

Well said.

[Weave]

No i dont support things like that, but its not analogous either. Vulgarity vs ignorance. I am not in a party. I already mentioned your point as well about both sides. My real point was their candidates running on a platform of which they knew little, ie the constitution.

 

It is analogous. You were the one labeling tea party supporters by this one individual. Do you think every Dem supporter at one of their rallies is fully informed of the Dem platform? Or the Repubs for that matter? Likely not.

 

I think you are doing your best to marginalize the movement, as opposed to trying to critically understand it, because you don't agree with its basic tenents.

[korab rules]

I cant find the report, but i believe this is the sign, http://markc1.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451bb2969e20120a5c02dda970c-800wi

 

My point is really that its one thing to run on things you disagree with, social programs vs tax cuts and be able to talk about those things with some level of intelligence as opposed to running on a platform you are unable to support with any facts.

 

That is a completely different sign with a completely different message than your original post. One could infer the sign holder is an idiot, but one could also appreciate the nuance of the message.

 

Providing a safety net for the disabled and elderly is far different than a government takeover and government funding of health care for everyone.

[MattPie]

Tea baggers? Original! I love how its acceptable for the left to use a sexual pejorative to describe a political/grass roots movement.

 

If I remember right, they referred to themselves as Tea Baggers before someone clued them in. But I could be wrong on that one.

 

I really want to be a libertarian. I don't want to tell *people* what to do. The problem is libertarian candidates always extend that to businesses and corporations. Those entities most decidedly do not have to best intentions and health of the country at heart, just making every possible cent off their customers and assets using whatever shady tricks they can think up. The banks pretty much proved that. At least I have some recourse on the government. There's nothing I can do to affect the banking industry. (That's just an example, we could talk about car safety, food quality, etc.)

 

The other problem is I have some real issues with the social portions of the Republican platfrom. Funny how folks that generally want the government to leave them alone also have some pretty strong ideas about how some folks should live their lives.

[biodork]

If I remember right, they referred to themselves as Tea Baggers before someone clued them in. But I could be wrong on that one.

 

I really want to be a libertarian. I don't want to tell *people* what to do. The problem is libertarian candidates always extend that to businesses and corporations. Those entities most decidedly do not have to best intentions and health of the country at heart, just making every possible cent off their customers and assets using whatever shady tricks they can think up. The banks pretty much proved that. At least I have some recourse on the government. There's nothing I can do to affect the banking industry. (That's just an example, we could talk about car safety, food quality, etc.)

 

The other problem is I have some real issues with the social portions of the Republican platfrom. Funny how folks that generally want the government to leave them alone also have some pretty strong ideas about how some folks should live their lives.

 

THIS.

[korab rules]

Every large gathering has a few nutjobs that show up. THat doesn't make them representative of the group. Not by a long shot. If you are gonna characterize the tea party by a particular protester you'd better be willing to accept the same back when nutjobs from the left are used to characterize your party of choice.

 

 

Just sayin'....

 

 

It is analogous. You were the one labeling tea party supporters by this one individual. Do you think every Dem supporter at one of their rallies is fully informed of the Dem platform? Or the Repubs for that matter? Likely not.

 

I think you are doing your best to marginalize the movement, as opposed to trying to critically understand it, because you don't agree with its basic tenents.

 

:wub: