Eleven Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Other than the LA Raiders moving back to Oakland has any team ever moved back to a city it left? The NJ Nets started in NJ, moved to NY, moved back to NJ, and are about to move back to NY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Dallas has been averaging over 17,000 since 00-01(as far back as espn numbers go), but their attendance is under 15,000 this year. Don't really now what is going on since they are having a good year. Maybe because they have missed the playoff the last two years? http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance Tom Hicks owns them. Tom Hicks is broke. He also owned the Rangers who were sold last summer to Nolan Ryan, et al. It's kind of a situation like Rigas- there's barely enough money to keep it going. Everybody knows it kind of sucks to be a Dallas Star right now and the fans are kind of on the sidelines waiting for the other shoe to drop (new ownership). That, and after a good start, the Stars have kind of tanked, although lately they've rallied a bit. Another consideration is the economy. Even though there is a good local following, Dallas Stars attendance is boosted by fans of other teams that now live in Texas that go to the games. I suspect that has dropped off a bit (since sometimes it includes travel to get here). Back in the day, Modano famously called out Stars fans to make noise because when the Red Wings came to town their fans would drown out the noise of the Stars fans. Also, the Mavericks are second best in the Western Conference. Given the two teams, I think most North Texans would prefer basketball over hockey. In fact, there would be little wailing and gnashing of teeth if a new owner tried to move the Stars, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 so I was reading somewhere and I can not find it now, but If Quebec got an NHL team again the Red Wings would push to be moved out of the western conference and moved into the northeast division, but I believe that would only be the case if Atlanta moved. Scary to think of detroit in our division... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Where did you hear that? Eklund? It sounds about as reliable. I think the Wings are comfortable being in the West. Think of Original Six rivalries: NY has Boston; Toronto has Montreal, and Detroit has Chicago. I don't thik the league would break up the only Original Six rivalry in the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 no not eklund it was more like... http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2011/03/detroit_red_wings_moving_to_ea.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 or this.... http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=885747 originally from Dreger, and just suggesting that the wings could move east if and only if there is team moving... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Where did you hear that? Eklund? It sounds about as reliable. I think the Wings are comfortable being in the West. Think of Original Six rivalries: NY has Boston; Toronto has Montreal, and Detroit has Chicago. I don't thik the league would break up the only Original Six rivalry in the West. There has been discussion about it from time to time. Only two Western Conference teams are in the Eastern time zone, and Detroit doesn't think it's fair that it has to log all sorts of crazy travel miles, with a three-hour time difference, to play in-conference games. They also lose TV revenue on a ton of in-conference games. I can understand the gripe. The only way a change becomes necessary, though, is if Atlanta or Florida moves to Winnipeg and Winnipeg is placed in the Western Conference, thereby creating an imbalance. Phoenix moving to Winnipeg doesn't change the number of Western(ish) teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 There has been discussion about it from time to time. Only two Western Conference teams are in the Eastern time zone, and Detroit doesn't think it's fair that it has to log all sorts of crazy travel miles, with a three-hour time difference, to play in-conference games. They also lose TV revenue on a ton of in-conference games. I can understand the gripe. The only way a change becomes necessary, though, is if Atlanta or Florida moves to Winnipeg and Winnipeg is placed in the Western Conference, thereby creating an imbalance. Phoenix moving to Winnipeg doesn't change the number of Western(ish) teams. Detroit might get it because they've been in the league longer, but Columbus should have the same exact complaint. Buffalo-Toronto-Detroit makes a ton of sense, but I don't know how they bump someone else out of the division. Geographically, Boston to the Atlantic would make sense, but there's not a chance in hell of them breaking up Montreal-Boston. For Columbus, it would make the most sense that they were in a division with Pittsburgh or Detroit. The problem is no one really fits in well into that southeast hole that would be given up by Atlanta or Florida. The east might need a total reshuffling if this were to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Paul Hamilton is fond of saying that bad hockey doesn't sell in any market and good hockey sells in all markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Winnipeg and Quebec City have a lot in common with Atlanta seeing as how hockey failed there too. There are still the same longterm problems in place in those two cities as their were when they originally lost their teams. Winnipeg now has a 15k seat arena which is below NHL numbers and Quebec still needs an arena. The thing about Winterpeg is that the potential owner is worth 19 or 20 billion dollars and that rink would be over capacity every night until the new rink is in place. Also that rink that seats only 15 000 is the fourth busiest rink in North America with all the other events that the people that run it have going on. Winnipeg has changed quite a bit since Bettman stole the jets the first time.The dollar is at par and had he worked as hard to keep the jets in winnipeg as he has done to keep them in the desert they never would have moved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 The thing about Winterpeg is that the potential owner is worth 19 or 20 billion dollars and that rink would be over capacity every night until the new rink is in place. Also that rink that seats only 15 000 is the fourth busiest rink in North America with all the other events that the people that run it have going on. Winnipeg has changed quite a bit since Bettman stole the jets the first time.The dollar is at par and had he worked as hard to keep the jets in winnipeg as he has done to keep them in the desert they never would have moved. That's a good thing about the billionaire because I can't imagine the city being willing to put up any money to build a new arena since this one is so young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two or less Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Paul Hamilton is fond of saying that bad hockey doesn't sell in any market and good hockey sells in all markets. While this is true, it's a very flawed statement. Teams like Tampa, Carolina, SJ, even Anaheim do well when they are on top of the league and have big star power behind them. Dallas was considered a hockey hotbed when they had Mike Modano and Ed Belfour in their primes and competed with Colorado and Detroit each year. But the problem is, it's impossible for teams to maintain that success for ever. And these markets drop like rocks in popularity once the teams dips. Even Ted Black said Sabres will have some dark days ahead eventually because it just happens to everyone so don't just think it's gonna be all glory every single day. Phoenix can not be used as an example for a "successful" team that doesn't sell hockey because years of threats of leaving has turned many people off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne VanDorp Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Detroit might get it because they've been in the league longer, but Columbus should have the same exact complaint. Buffalo-Toronto-Detroit makes a ton of sense, but I don't know how they bump someone else out of the division. Geographically, Boston to the Atlantic would make sense, but there's not a chance in hell of them breaking up Montreal-Boston. For Columbus, it would make the most sense that they were in a division with Pittsburgh or Detroit. The problem is no one really fits in well into that southeast hole that would be given up by Atlanta or Florida. The east might need a total reshuffling if this were to happen. This addresses moving Colorado to the Pacific and Winnipeg would take their place in the Northwest: Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillerTime5 Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 They moved from winnipeg to begin with for a reason. Let's not forget that. The Jets moved in 1996. Let's remember what it was like back then. For one, the canadian dollar was worth .60 cents compared to the American dollar meaning just to match a salary they had to commit 40% more. The "loonie" is now even if not a little more valuable then the dollar. There was no salary cap in place. You add that to already having a dollar well below average and any Canadian team is going to struggle to make ends meet. Now there is a salary cap in place meaning small market teams, like Winnipeg would be, CAN compete with clubs like New York. Next is the arena. There was no funding for one but now there is a new arena. You can debate it being too small but if/when the jets move it will be expanded and the plans the ownership team in Winnipeg shared with Gary Bettman back about a year ago showed they have a plan in place to make the team profitable, something they have never been in Phoenix. The owners are in place, the arena is and business plan is acceptable and thats right from Gary Bettman though at that point in time the talks were only to see what other options exist. Lastly fan support. The move to Phoenix was never about the fans. Winnipeg was always supportive of the Jets (they created the white out and STILL the Jets jersey is one of the best selling league wide) and were known as one of the loudest, most supportive crowds in the league. That hasn't changed. The Manitoba Moose (Vancouver's AHL affiliate) now plays in Winnpeg and has since the Jets moved. They have had the highest attendance and been one of the top run organizations in the league since they came here. Their owners (True North) will be the ones putting up the money for the Jets if the NHL pulls the plug on Phoenix. All that being said, all the reasons they moved are no longer viable. The economic climate has changed, the way the league is run has changed and the ownership here has changed. All signs pointing to Winnipeg being a viable market for the NHL in hopefully the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoDo Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 XM 204 reported this morning that Nick Kypreos stated this and it is totally unfounded. As of now the Coyotes are staying in Phoenix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillerTime5 Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 Winnipeg and Quebec City have a lot in common with Atlanta seeing as how hockey failed there too. There are still the same longterm problems in place in those two cities as their were when they originally lost their teams. Winnipeg now has a 15k seat arena which is below NHL numbers and Quebec still needs an arena. The Jets moved in 1996. The Canadian dollar was worth .60 cents of the American counterpart and there was no salary cap to help small market teams compete. Now the dollar is even if not a little more valuable then its American counterpart and the salary cap will insure that a team in Winnipeg will be competitive. The arena is here and WILL be expanded. Gary Bettman has looked at a proposal from True North (whom's owner is worth billions) and he is more then satisfied with their plan to turn a team into profits in Winnipeg. It can be debated back and forth its too small but it won't stay that way and Gary Bettman is on board and has said it is a NHL calibur arena so as far as a decision goes the arena is in Winnipeg's favor. Lastly fan support. The Jets jersey is STILL among one of the top selling jerseys even though the team moved 14 years ago. There are already and have been for some time companies offering to buy luxury suites and fans to buy season tickets if the team should move. Winnipeg is now home to the Manitoba Moose (Vancouver's AHL affiliate) and it is one of the best run teams and has had the highest attendance for several years now. The same ownership would be running a ressurected Jets team and they know what it will take to make it work in Winnipeg, they have been doing it for 14 years. The move back in 1996 was never about fans or support, it was simple economics. The Candian dollar wasn't strong and there was no salary cap leaving the teams in Quebec and Winnipeg simply unattractive compared to a hefty american dollar in a highly populated area. All of those factors have now swung the other way. The support is there. The economic structure of the NHL allows smaller teams to compete with the big ones. The money is there to back it and the arena will be NHL ready by opening night. All that is left is making it official and hopefully they end the charade in the desert soon. A year and half is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanbe Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 Living here in Phoenix I can say True North is not who they are negotiating with to be the new ownership of the Yotes. It is Chicago businessman Matthew Hulsizer. Deal is in place between he and the city of Glendale. However, the hold up is a "watchdog" group known as the Goldwater Institute that will/is suing over the deal that it violates the State of Arizona Constitution. That is the hold up. Hulsizer and the NHL insist that the deal doesn't violate the constitution but the fear of litigation is there so IMO, I think the Yotes will move. I hope not. I like going to the games. The arena is great and the fans are (finally!) knowledgeable about the game. Here is a link that pretty much sums it up so far......Globe & Mail For those that want to know....the Coyote story is a footnote on local sports shows. You don't see big write up's in the Arizona Fish Wrap either. It's a die hard core of fans and they are rabid about the team. With the Suns being so so and the Cardinals in need of a lot of players the Coyotes are on the cusp of being THE team here in the valley. Phoenix fans follow a winner. If not, interest is lost and only the core fans show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillerTime5 Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 Living here in Phoenix I can say True North is not who they are negotiating with to be the new ownership of the Yotes. It is Chicago businessman Matthew Hulsizer. Deal is in place between he and the city of Glendale. However, the hold up is a "watchdog" group known as the Goldwater Institute that will/is suing over the deal that it violates the State of Arizona Constitution. That is the hold up. Hulsizer and the NHL insist that the deal doesn't violate the constitution but the fear of litigation is there so IMO, I think the Yotes will move. I hope not. I like going to the games. The arena is great and the fans are (finally!) knowledgeable about the game. Here is a link that pretty much sums it up so far......Globe & Mail For those that want to know....the Coyote story is a footnote on local sports shows. You don't see big write up's in the Arizona Fish Wrap either. It's a die hard core of fans and they are rabid about the team. With the Suns being so so and the Cardinals in need of a lot of players the Coyotes are on the cusp of being THE team here in the valley. Phoenix fans follow a winner. If not, interest is lost and only the core fans show up. True North is the company up here that is the back-up plan if Hulsizer falls through. They made presentations before Hulsizer was involved (back when Balisille was still trying to move them to Hamilton) and they have been in contact ever since. How serious that is we will see. Some reports say its likely, some say that is all smoke and mirrors. I wouldnt put it past Bettman to say its iminent and deny it just to light a fire under Hulsizer to get it done, wouldnt be the first time in the past year hes done it. The real story will come out when Phoenix's season is done. The source could just be smoke again but I am hoping they aren't...but I am bias. I want the Jets back in Winnipeg. Either way Jeanbe, if they do stay make sure to have a beer at the game for us up here in Winnipeg. We are hoping the deal falls through for selfish reasons but I am glad to hear there are fans down their who appreciate the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanbe Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 True North is the company up here that is the back-up plan if Hulsizer falls through. They made presentations before Hulsizer was involved (back when Balisille was still trying to move them to Hamilton) and they have been in contact ever since. How serious that is we will see. Some reports say its likely, some say that is all smoke and mirrors. I wouldnt put it past Bettman to say its iminent and deny it just to light a fire under Hulsizer to get it done, wouldnt be the first time in the past year hes done it. The real story will come out when Phoenix's season is done. The source could just be smoke again but I am hoping they aren't...but I am bias. I want the Jets back in Winnipeg. Either way Jeanbe, if they do stay make sure to have a beer at the game for us up here in Winnipeg. We are hoping the deal falls through for selfish reasons but I am glad to hear there are fans down their who appreciate the team. MT5, I believe the Yotes are heading back home. Only way they will stay is if the NHL will fight the lawsuit. I can't see Hulsizer putting his, or too much of his, $$ in the fight. I'll tell you this, I grew up in Buffalo and am an avid Sabre fan and love having the Yotes out here mainly so I can see the Sabres, Leafs, Canadiens and other Eastern teams play out here. The marketing of the team sucks. Local newspaper coverage sucks. Little TV coverage. Phoenix is not a hockey market. I just don't get the fight in Bettman to make it one? I don't get the other owners in the league giving money to keep the Coyotes a float? I tend to look at the bottom line and all I see is red ink here in Phoenix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Dance Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 During the Tampa-Pittsburgh game last night on CBC, they did pass along the story that the Phoenix to Winnipeg move will be announced as soon as the Coyotes are out of the playoffs. Take that for what it is worth.... I know there may be a hard-core group of hockey fans in Phoenix, but a lot of them show up at the arena disguised as empty seats. I'm not sure I understand the league's insistence on keeping a team in Phoenix when there are other cities (Winnipeg, to be sure, but Kansas City, Quebec, etc.) clamoring for an NHL franchise. The NBA certainly has no qualms about allowing franchises to move about (well, maybe they are a little TOO free-wheeling in this area). If the NHL fans in Winnipeg are more avid and numerous than the ones in Phoenix, the arena situation is settled and there is an owner willing to put up the cash, why not allow the move? I don't think the NHL needs to expand right now - the talent pool is stretched pretty thin already. 30 teams is enough (28 would be better). Allow your least-supported franchises the opportunity to move to a city where they can flourish. But please let them change the nickname of the team back to Jets or Nordiques. (Memphis Grizzlies? Utah Jazz? Yeesh!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannustyrannus Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 I don't think the NHL needs to expand right now - the talent pool is stretched pretty thin already. 30 teams is enough (28 would be better). Allow your least-supported franchises the opportunity to move to a city where they can flourish. But please let them change the nickname of the team back to Jets or Nordiques. (Memphis Grizzlies? Utah Jazz? Yeesh!) Coyotes are native to Winnipeg, it wouldn't be that terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 Coyotes are native to Winnipeg, it wouldn't be that terrible. True dat, but there is no way in hell they won't be renaming that team the JETS if they move back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 True dat, but there is no way in hell they won't be renaming that team the JETS if they move back... These days it will be the Winnepeg Regional Carriers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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