GDT: 11/04/25 Utah Mammoth @ Buffalo Sabres 7 pm MSG and Radio

[Jorcus]

54 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

They were pretty good at 3v3 when Granato was coach and they had not yet "learned defense".  

 

The first thing Granato did was to have his best faceoff man at the time (Mitts) take the faceoff to win possession. Mitts would skate off the ice and be replaced by a faster skater. It was all about possession and holding for a breakdown. They would wear the other team down and trap them until they got a really good chance. It was a novel concept at the time and other teams started to copy it. Not having Norris hurts 3 on 3 a lot. He is the best faceoff man we have, he is very fast and can finish his shots. This also huts the power play because of the faceoff issue. Last I looked we were the worst faceoff team in the NHL. Bottom line though the shooting has to get better all around. Just not finishing enough chances. 

[msw2112]

I was not able to see last night's game.  I'm out of market and for some reason, it was not one of the available games on ESPN+.  I don't have NHL Network, but I checked online and it wasn't one of their games either, so not sure what the deal was....I was able to see the replay of the OT winning goal and, of course, I'm frustrated to see a Utah player weaving around, through, and by all 3 Sabres to win the game.  I don't have any context to what happened before that.  What I do know is that the Sabres often get chances to win the game in OT - breakaways, 2 on 1s, 3 on 1s, etc. and can't bury the chance, whereas other teams get one opportunity and the game is over (with the exception of the Washington game in which UPL - of all players - stood tall in OT).  Clearly, Tuch lost his man on the spin move and Quinn was not ready to pick him up.  I'm assuming that, after all the bad OT losses recently, the Sabres players were instructed to "stay with their man" which may be why Quinn didn't step up and Dahlin wasn't able to pick up Keller either.  They were presumably "shadowing" their guys while Keller was Tuch's responsibility.  While it doesn't look like it would have broken this way, had Quinn and/or Dahlin stepped up to take Keller, maybe one of the other two Utah players is uncovered, jumps into the play, takes a pass from Keller and they score the winning goal?  Speculation and conjecture at this point.

It sounds like Lyon played a hell of a game and stole a point.  Given the injuries and the fact that Utah has been good so far, maybe that's not a terrible result.

On to St. Louis.

 

[shrader]

7 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

I was not able to see last night's game.  I'm out of market and for some reason, it was not one of the available games on ESPN+.  I don't have NHL Network, but I checked online and it wasn't one of their games either, so not sure what the deal was....I was able to see the replay of the OT winning goal and, of course, I'm frustrated to see a Utah player weaving around, through, and by all 3 Sabres to win the game.  I don't have any context to what happened before that.  What I do know is that the Sabres often get chances to win the game in OT - breakaways, 2 on 1s, 3 on 1s, etc. and can't bury the chance, whereas other teams get one opportunity and the game is over (with the exception of the Washington game in which UPL - of all players - stood tall in OT).  Clearly, Tuch lost his man on the spin move and Quinn was not ready to pick him up.  I'm assuming that, after all the bad OT losses recently, the Sabres players were instructed to "stay with their man" which may be why Quinn didn't step up and Dahlin wasn't able to pick up Keller either.  They were presumably "shadowing" their guys while Keller was Tuch's responsibility.  While it doesn't look like it would have broken this way, had Quinn and/or Dahlin stepped up to take Keller, maybe one of the other two Utah players is uncovered, jumps into the play, takes a pass from Keller and they score the winning goal?  Speculation and conjecture at this point.

It sounds like Lyon played a hell of a game and stole a point.  Given the injuries and the fact that Utah has been good so far, maybe that's not a terrible result.

On to St. Louis.

 

Are you in the Utah market by any chance?  I had the game on ESPN+ last night.

[LTS]

Meh.. the Sabres need to try something different in OT.  Ray made a comment last night about 5 straight let's you learn. He's not wrong. The problem is they are not learning.

Quinn is a 3 v 3 nightmare.

Players on the ice for the last 4 OTL games when the game was decided, Quinn has been on for 2 of those

Utah: Tuch, Quinn, Dahlin
Boston: Thompson, Quinn, Dahlin
Columbus: Power, Tuch, Kulich
Toronto: Thompson, Quinn, Power

It might be time to NOT put Quinn out there.  It's not working.

Overall as I was reviewing this, if you've not reviewed the NHL goal visualizer yet, you should. Here's last nights game center - https://www.nhl.com/gamecenter/buf-vs-uta/2025/11/04/2025020203

I find it funny when they show all the players jumping over the boards and the puck being shot down the ice. It's also a good way to see where players were at when things happened from a top down view.

Good enough to get to OT, but they are not skilled at 3 v3 which requires even better man to man coverage on defense.  And of course, you don't allow a goalie to play the puck to his own team.. kids are taught go to the net to get the whistle... why Tuch did not is beyond me.

 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said:

If Tuch only had a bit more accuracy on his shot. 
I dare to say, no one misses the net on high danger chances more than him 

 

He’s not going to suddenly get more accurate. Maybe Lindy could tell him not to pick the corners so much but I fear the discussion would then turn into why is Alex always shooting the puck into the goalie so much. 

[inkman]

In the first photo, you can see Utah ran a pick play or rub off to shed Tuch.  Quinn is in no man’s land but he’s in decent position because he’s between the puck and the net.  Why he nor Dahlin recognize what is unfolding until Keller is point blank with the goalie is troubling.  Not sure if the players usually yell switch or something to indicate an uncovered player is coming free heading to the net but those guys need to react better there.  
 

Frankly, Dahlin and Quinn, for all their offensive talents might be the two dimmest players on the team. Constantly not recognizing things on the ice and causing defensive lapses because of it. 

[thewookie1]

2 minutes ago, inkman said:

In the first photo, you can see Utah ran a pick play or rub off to shed Tuch.  Quinn is in no man’s land but he’s in decent position because he’s between the puck and the net.  Why he nor Dahlin recognize what is unfolding until Keller is point blank with the goalie is troubling.  Not sure if the players usually yell switch or something to indicate an uncovered player is coming free heading to the net but those guys need to react better there.  
 

Frankly, Dahlin and Quinn, for all their offensive talents might be the two dimmest players on the team. Constantly not recognizing things on the ice and causing defensive lapses because of it. 

Always need to throw daggers at Dahlin....

 

As for the pictures

I agree, there was a pick play which effectively took Tuch off Keller

 Once the rub had worked and Keller was going in on Quinn, Quinn needs to step up on him with Tuch in pursuit. Not back away towards Dahlin who is positioned to cover the backdoor. Had Keller passed it to a guy who scored then Dahlin would be more at fault but Keller just drives the net. Dahlin realizes Quinn backed off and does make a last ditch effort to get to Keller but he's too late at this point.

As with defensive play in general, when playing a 1v1 with trailing support you want to either slow or angle the opposing player away from the net allowing the back checker either time to catch up or cover the possible trailer.

In that particular case it would be Quinn's responsibility as he was the "LHD" at that time to take on Keller; Dahlin would then need to adjust accordingly based on the potential trailers coming in. Ideally in 3v3 Quinn steps up onto Keller and sandwiches him with Tuch causing a turnover or at least no shot as it slides harmlessly to Lyon. Dahlin is trapped guarding against the trailer incoming; he can't commit to Keller unless he effectively abandons his position to puck hunt. 

 

 

[msw2112]

2 hours ago, shrader said:

Are you in the Utah market by any chance?  I had the game on ESPN+ last night.

Arizona.  The Utah games are blacked out here but I thought I could end around the blackout with a VPN connection.  Plus, typically for blacked out games, the game is listed, but it is marked as blacked out.  That said, the game wasn't even listed.  I looked for it on ESPN+ on my phone, TV, and tablet and it appeared in none of them.  I looked at "Live," "Power Play," and "On Demand.  I even did a search for "Sabres" and got all previous games, all upcoming games, and highlights from last night's game, but not last night's game itself.  This seems to happen to me once or twice every season - a game that undoubtedly is available on ESPN+ just doesn't show up for me.  Very strange.  I had never tried the VPN before for this, so I didn't know if it would work (sometimes they do, sometimes they don't), but never even got the opportunity to try.  Given the blackout to begin with, I wasn't too disappointed, as there was only a chance the VPN would even work, so even if the game had shown up, I still might not have gotten to watch it.  I tried it with the VPN on and with it off, and in neither case did the game appear.

Of course, it shows up today (see image below), but it was nowhere to be seen last night, and I gave up and saw the result.  The only good thing to come out of it was that I slept much better, because I would have stayed up a couple of hours later to watch and would have been pissed off to have invested a couple of hours only to see them lose in OT (again).

I'd be interested to know if other Sabrespace members have had this happen - where a game that is supposed to be available on ESPN+ simply doesn't appear (but then shows up the next day).

Edited 2 hours ago by msw2112

[msw2112]

52 minutes ago, inkman said:

In the first photo, you can see Utah ran a pick play or rub off to shed Tuch.  Quinn is in no man’s land but he’s in decent position because he’s between the puck and the net.  Why he nor Dahlin recognize what is unfolding until Keller is point blank with the goalie is troubling.  Not sure if the players usually yell switch or something to indicate an uncovered player is coming free heading to the net but those guys need to react better there.  
 

Frankly, Dahlin and Quinn, for all their offensive talents might be the two dimmest players on the team. Constantly not recognizing things on the ice and causing defensive lapses because of it. 

These pictures add a lot of color to the discussion.  After seeing these, I would agree that Tuch was effectively picked when Keller circled back and that Quinn was in a position to see this develop and should have had the sense to step up and take Keller.  

Kudos to the UT coaching staff for putting together a nice play - looks like a pick and roll in basketball (except that there was no pass - the "rolling" player kept the puck) - and the opposite to the Sabres coaching staff who did not have their guys ready for such a scenario.  Yet another thing for the Sabres to work on in film study and practice.

Edited 1 hour ago by msw2112

[SwampD]

I found this game to be really boring.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Ok so why did your original post only blame Quinn?

if Tuch converted on any of his two glorious chances (including a wide open net).  This conversation doesn't even happen

my point is, for many on this board the fingers are always pointed at Quinn and Power.  

On a night like last night a guy like Tuch shouldn't be above criticism.   
 

Ok but your replacement can not be Bryson 

 

No Tuch gets criticism but my original post looks at the last man who could stop the play and that was Quinn. You want to dig deeper I laid it out including Tuch. Now I'm not going to say the goal is Tuch's fault because he missed a scoring chance, it doesn't work that way, but he did miss his man in the D zone. BUT, 

I'm going to add this. If you look closely Tuch is the victim of a near pic by Utah. I'm wondering if this is a designed play for them in OT. They cross on purpose and the other Utah player coming across leads to Tuch taking a step back. Is that just a congestion thing or is it on purpose? I'd have to watch Utah more to see if they try that a lot or not but it's a good play if it's intentional. 

So yes, Tuch misses his guy but Quinn is still in position to stop the charge to the net. You want to blame both of them I'm fine with that, but it most definitely could have been stopped by Quinn if he plays the man and not the puck (which is what I assume the stick waive was for).

[Jorcus]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

In the first photo, you can see Utah ran a pick play or rub off to shed Tuch.  Quinn is in no man’s land but he’s in decent position because he’s between the puck and the net.  Why he nor Dahlin recognize what is unfolding until Keller is point blank with the goalie is troubling.  Not sure if the players usually yell switch or something to indicate an uncovered player is coming free heading to the net but those guys need to react better there.  
 

Frankly, Dahlin and Quinn, for all their offensive talents might be the two dimmest players on the team. Constantly not recognizing things on the ice and causing defensive lapses because of it. 

Just wanted to point out that Quinn had just come on the ice so that's why he looks to be in no mans land. He did get to his spot but did little once he was there. Ruff can bitch about the play but he was the guy who threw him over the wall in a defensive situation.

[Taro T]

5 hours ago, Doohickie said:

They're playing St. Louis.  Expect Colten Ellis in goal; he was a Blues draft pick.

Well, per UPL, YOUR expectation ain't happening, as HE expects to get the start tomorrow.

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, Jorcus said:

 

The first thing Granato did was to have his best faceoff man at the time (Mitts) take the faceoff to win possession. Mitts would skate off the ice and be replaced by a faster skater. It was all about possession and holding for a breakdown. They would wear the other team down and trap them until they got a really good chance. It was a novel concept at the time and other teams started to copy it. Not having Norris hurts 3 on 3 a lot. He is the best faceoff man we have, he is very fast and can finish his shots. This also huts the power play because of the faceoff issue. Last I looked we were the worst faceoff team in the NHL. Bottom line though the shooting has to get better all around. Just not finishing enough chances. 

Yep.  Granato was all about puck possession in OT and trying everything you could to get the other guys tired and then, and only then, taking a shot at actually scoring in OT.  And it was a pretty successful concept.

Ruff doesn't seem to care about possession as much as he has the skaters be more aggressive and go for the win when they can.  So far, it's backfired in 4 of the past 5 games, and the only reason it didn't fail in the other game is the exhausted OTers did a good job of not allowing anything in close and UPL was lights out in OT.  Take either of those away and we're likely looking at 5 points in the last 5 rather than 6 out of the last 5.

And the skaters were more aggressive tha they'd been under Granato last year too.