Trade : Conor Timmins and Isaac Belliveau from the Pittsburgh Penguins in exchange for Connor Clifton and the 39th overall pick in the 2025 NHL Draft.

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Out from Buffalo: Cozens, Peterka, Clifton, Lafferty, JBD, Reimer

In for Buffalo: Norris, Kesselring, Doan, Timmins, Danforth, Lyon

And Kulich and Benson are a year older. I'm not saying we'll make the playoffs, but I don't agree that we only marginally tweaked the roster. We brought in 2 new defenders, 1 top 4. We added a top 6 forward. We added a 3rd line forward. We added a 4th line forward. We added a new gt. I do agree it looks even on paper and I put us at only 85pts but we've done quite a bit to this roster since March. 

I think our piss poor coaching is the Achilles heel.

This is really Kesselring in Peterka out. The rest is a wash of equivalents. 

Kids being a year older has been the battle cry for a decade plus now.

So Peterka gave us 20-30 goals. Will Kesselring prevent 20-30 goals? Even if he does, it's still the same. 

[PromoTheRobot]

Aug 2.

 

[7+6=13]

On 7/16/2025 at 8:02 PM, PerreaultForever said:

This is really Kesselring in Peterka out. The rest is a wash of equivalents. 

Kids being a year older has been the battle cry for a decade plus now.

So Peterka gave us 20-30 goals. Will Kesselring prevent 20-30 goals? Even if he does, it's still the same. 

Wouldn't Peterka also be part of that battle cry, yet now we have to count every one of his goals missing from the total?

So you think Norris will perform about the same for the Sabres as he did last year?

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, 7+6=13 said:

Wouldn't Peterka also be part of that battle cry, yet now we have to count every one of his goals missing from the total?

So you think Norris will perform about the same for the Sabres as he did last year?

I don't think Norris will play more than half the season but maybe I'm just too pessimistic. Peterka on the other hand I think will have a great year as that Mammoth top 6 looks like a really solid group that should fit together nicely. You never know though. He could sit back and just enjoy his new contract.

[JP51]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't think Norris will play more than half the season but maybe I'm just too pessimistic. Peterka on the other hand I think will have a great year as that Mammoth top 6 looks like a really solid group that should fit together nicely. You never know though. He could sit back and just enjoy his new contract.

I worry about this too... but in the end... we are going to have to see if we play better defensively without him... however the Norris concept... I think we got raked if this guy cant stay healthy... 

[dudacek]

On 7/16/2025 at 5:02 PM, PerreaultForever said:

This is really Kesselring in Peterka out. The rest is a wash of equivalents. 

Kids being a year older has been the battle cry for a decade plus now.

So Peterka gave us 20-30 goals. Will Kesselring prevent 20-30 goals? Even if he does, it's still the same. 

I don’t see it this way at all even if you simplify it down to just players in, players out and ignore the depth guys.

it’s Norris Kesselring Doan for Cozens Jokiharju and Peterka.

Goals scored that’s 34 in, 46 out. It’s not 20 or 30 the defence needs to make up, it’s 12.

But it’s way more complicated than that.

How will the moves affect the power play, the PK, line chemistry, line matchups, situational deployments, the forecheck, the backcheck, puck battles, rush offence, rush defence, exits and entries, the cycle game, getting to the net, blocking out, D zone structure, the room…?

Hockey is a complicated soup.

Edited 7 hours ago by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don’t see it this way at all even if you simplify it down to just players in, players out and ignore the depth guys.

it’s Norris Kesselring Doan for Cozens Jokiharju and Peterka.

Goals scored that’s 34 in, 46 out. It’s not 20 or 30 the defence needs to make up, it’s 12.

But it’s way more complicated than that.

How will the moves affect the power play, the PK, line chemistry, line matchups, situational deployments, the forecheck, the backcheck, puck battles, rush offence, rush defence, exits and entries, the cycle game, getting to the net, blocking out, D zone structure, the room…?

Hockey is a complicated soup.

Out from Buffalo: Cozens, Peterka, Clifton, Lafferty, JBD, Reimer

In for Buffalo: Norris, Kesselring, Doan, Timmins, Danforth, Lyon

It is roughly around 50goals out and 40goals in. 

[French Collection]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Out from Buffalo: Cozens, Peterka, Clifton, Lafferty, JBD, Reimer

In for Buffalo: Norris, Kesselring, Doan, Timmins, Danforth, Lyon

It is roughly around 50goals out and 40goals in. 

KA’s dream of internal growth from Benson, Kulich, Quinn and Power can make up 10 goals.

I still think he hasn’t done enough in regards to team building and instilling team toughness but they should be able to generate offense.

[Ctaeth]

3 minutes ago, French Collection said:

KA’s dream of internal growth from Benson, Kulich, Quinn and Power can make up 10 goals.

I still think he hasn’t done enough in regards to team building and instilling team toughness but they should be able to generate offense.

Don't forget Doan & Kesselring.  They don't have a ton of time in the NHL yet either and could certainly improve their scoring this year.

[LGR4GM]

9 minutes ago, French Collection said:

KA’s dream of internal growth from Benson, Kulich, Quinn and Power can make up 10 goals.

I still think he hasn’t done enough in regards to team building and instilling team toughness but they should be able to generate offense.

They'll still be able to generate offense off the rush because they have such dynamic defenders. Buffalo has 4 of the top 31 5v5 assist creating defenders in the NHL now: Dahlin, Kesselring, Byram, Power. I think losing Peterka will hurt rush creation but adding Doan probably helps cycle creation. Hard to say what their scoring will do overall as Quinn and Benson are wildcards and I don't expect Norris to shoot at 8% like Cozens. Still, Buffalo probably scores a few less than last year, if that comes with a drastic reduction is goals against, than cool. 

3 minutes ago, Ctaeth said:

Don't forget Doan & Kesselring.  They don't have a ton of time in the NHL yet either and could certainly improve their scoring this year.

They can, but "hope is a ***** strategy" 

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Buffalo has 4 of the top 31 5v5 assist creating defenders in the NHL now: Dahlin, Kesselring, Byram, Power.

This is our best hope: that the talent on this blue line has experienced enough that it can realize its potential.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by dudacek

[Ctaeth]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

They can, but "hope is a ***** strategy" 

I don't think it's hope in this case.  I'd classify it as "expectation", not hope.  In the case of older players repeating career years, yeah that's hope.  You hope they can reach that level again.  But for younger players, it's just expectation and the reality of how players progress.  They usually don't peak with less than two seasons total played.  I don't take issue with Adams expecting ("hoping") that these young players will improve.... because they should improve.  You expect them to; they don't come in as a finished product.  Where I do take issues with Adams and his attitude towards the younger players is him continuing to have such a large young core AND not sufficiently supplementing it with enough of the right veterans to show the kids how it's done.

It's semantics, but I think it's an important distinction to make.  Also, I'd prefer to never be put in a position of defending KA ever again 🤢

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t see it this way at all even if you simplify it down to just players in, players out and ignore the depth guys.

it’s Norris Kesselring Doan for Cozens Jokiharju and Peterka.

Goals scored that’s 34 in, 46 out. It’s not 20 or 30 the defence needs to make up, it’s 12.

But it’s way more complicated than that.

How will the moves affect the power play, the PK, line chemistry, line matchups, situational deployments, the forecheck, the backcheck, puck battles, rush offence, rush defence, exits and entries, the cycle game, getting to the net, blocking out, D zone structure, the room…?

Hockey is a complicated soup.

It is, and the Sabres retained all the coaches that have a devil of a time figuring out how to use the ingredients they've been given.

 

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

This is our best hope: that the talent on this blue line has experienced enough that it can realize its potential.

 

We'd better hope they do, because the coaches can't be expected to put them in position to do so.

How much different this off-season would feel if Wilford, Appert, Ellis, and possibly Bales were gone.

[LGR4GM]

54 minutes ago, Taro T said:

It is, and the Sabres retained all the coaches that have a devil of a time figuring out how to use the ingredients they've been given.

We'd better hope they do, because the coaches can't be expected to put them in position to do so.

How much different this off-season would feel if Wilford, Appert, Ellis, and possibly Bales were gone.

Id have more hope. In particular I think Wilford being allowed to continue on is shocking neglect. He's managed 1 good defensive year in the last 4 but other than that has been terrible and I think he contributes to both the defense and the forwards supporting them being bad. Sabres have been in the bottom 3rd of the league in goals against in 3 of his 4 years and yet here we go, year 5. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, JP51 said:

I worry about this too... but in the end... we are going to have to see if we play better defensively without him... however the Norris concept... I think we got raked if this guy cant stay healthy... 

Well that's certainly what Ottawa was thinking. I stand by my prediction that this year's excuse is going to be injuries and a lot of "if only..........hadn't missed those games" and then they stay the course yet again. A self fulfilling prophecy. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t see it this way at all even if you simplify it down to just players in, players out and ignore the depth guys.

it’s Norris Kesselring Doan for Cozens Jokiharju and Peterka.

Goals scored that’s 34 in, 46 out. It’s not 20 or 30 the defence needs to make up, it’s 12.

But it’s way more complicated than that.

How will the moves affect the power play, the PK, line chemistry, line matchups, situational deployments, the forecheck, the backcheck, puck battles, rush offence, rush defence, exits and entries, the cycle game, getting to the net, blocking out, D zone structure, the room…?

Hockey is a complicated soup.

Well yes, and I've certainly never relied on "numbers". I've always argued about line chemistry and roster make up and imo it's still inherently flawed. I like Kesselring and am hopeful for him. Timmins idk. I'm not so sure he's better than Clifton was. We shall see. There is hope for a Power/Kesselring pairing however. The top 6 is problematic to me though. It's fully reliant on Quinn bouncing back and more and on 2 kids emerging and I think it's too soon for them to do that. Kulich and Benson should be third line players right now not top line, but that's what the Sabres keep doing. Thompson can and likely will score a bunch of goals anytime anywhere, but aside from the relative consistency of Tuch, the rest of the top 6 is a big question mark.

[PromoTheRobot]

4 hours ago, French Collection said:

KA’s dream of internal growth from Benson, Kulich, Quinn and Power can make up 10 goals.

I still think he hasn’t done enough in regards to team building and instilling team toughness but they should be able to generate offense.

 

4 hours ago, Ctaeth said:

Don't forget Doan & Kesselring.  They don't have a ton of time in the NHL yet either and could certainly improve their scoring this year.

 

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

This is our best hope: that the talent on this blue line has experienced enough that it can realize its potential.

 

Preventing 10 goals is just as good.

[Thorny]

That was the best part about trading Eichel- you don’t trade playmaking, just “goals” 

What did Eichel have his last year? 2 goals? 

2 goals out. Mathing.

- - - 

You don’t want to trade a guy like Norris cause his goals assist ratio is too weighted towards goals

you trade playmakers or guys with high assist totals - the “goals out” calculation doesn’t need to take that into equation so it’s a pretty damn good strategy  

Honestly have we considered moving Dahlin? Had we moved Dahlin for Doan we’d only have been out 6 goals. That would have been my move

 

Peterka had 41 assists last year. The Kesselring, Doan, Norris combo had 47, combined

Peterka had 41 assists last year. jAsh Norris has 67, in 8 years since being drafted

Edited 2 hours ago by Thorny

[dudacek]

29 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That was the best part about trading Eichel- you don’t trade playmaking, just “goals” 

What did Eichel have his last year? 2 goals? 

2 goals out. Mathing.

- - - 

You don’t want to trade a guy like Norris cause his goals assist ratio is too weighted towards goals

you trade playmakers or guys with high assist totals - the “goals out” calculation doesn’t need to take that into equation so it’s a pretty damn good strategy  

Honestly have we considered moving Dahlin? Had we moved Dahlin for Doan we’d only have been out 6 goals. That would have been my move

I’m not sure how this is much different from my post you disagreed with.

Honing it down to simply goals scored by Peterka and stopped by Kesselring is dramatically oversimplifying how hockey works.

.

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m not sure how this is much different from my post you disagreed with.

Honing it down to simply goals scored by Peterka and stopped by Kesselring is dramatically oversimplifying how hockey works.

.

I know you made reference to “there’s more to it” but it’s an X for me because assist totals for me aren’t “more to it.” They are simply “it.” That’s raw offence.

”Goals scored that’s 34 in, 46 out. It’s not 20 or 30 the defence needs to make up, it’s 12.

But it’s way more complicated than that.

How will the moves affect the power play, the PK, line chemistry, line matchups, situational deployments, the forecheck, the backcheck, puck battles, rush offence, rush defence, exits and entries, the cycle game, getting to the net, blocking out, D zone structure, the room…?”

This reads pretty firmly as “it’s 12 goals, for offence, and then other stuff”

I just disagree. Assists deserve to be included with / attributed to raw offence. The “goals” we will need to replace. It’s not chemistry, or rush offence, or any of the stuff you mentioned 

it’s offence. The calculation doesn’t start at 34 in, 46 out. 
 

I don’t think it’s just an oversimplification - I think it’s an oversimplification to the extent of being functionally meaningless in terms of a discussion point 

Edited 2 hours ago by Thorny

[dudacek]

Why did Dylan Holloway jump from 6 goals and 9 points to 26 and 63 last year? Nothing in his resume suggested that was coming.

Who expected Tage Thompson to suddenly erupt with 38 goals when he did?

Five years ago thinking Gustav Forsling the best D on a cup winner? Yeah, right.

Player performance can be as much about opportunity and circumstance as it is skill.

 

[Thorny]

83 points in, 124 points out - that’s your better starting point 

Your more objective starting point 

It’s not 33% more out, as simplifying to “goals” would suggest. I’d wager it’s far closer to the ~50% marker using all points would suggest 

[dudacek]

Just now, Thorny said:

I know you made reference to “there’s more to it” but it’s an X for me because assist totals for me aren’t “more to it.” There are simply “it.” That’s raw offence.

”Goals scored that’s 34 in, 46 out. It’s not 20 or 30 the defence needs to make up, it’s 12.

But it’s way more complicated than that.

How will the moves affect the power play, the PK, line chemistry, line matchups, situational deployments, the forecheck, the backcheck, puck battles, rush offence, rush defence, exits and entries, the cycle game, getting to the net, blocking out, D zone structure, the room…?”

This reads pretty firmly as “it’s 12 goals, for offence, and then other stuff”

I just disagree. Assist deserve to be included with / attributed to raw offence. The “goals” we will need to replace. It’s not chemistry, or rush offence, or any of the stuff you mentioned 

it’s offence. The calculation doesn’t start at 34 in, 46 out. 
 

I don’t think it’s just an oversimplification - I think it’s an oversimplification the the extent of being meaningless 

The context was Perreault’s post. The part you bolded is me disagreeing with his numbers on his terms.

The part you considered extra was me framing the argument in my own terms, the terms I think are relevant

And I’d apply that argument against your assist argument as well.

For example.

JJ Peterka’s assist would not exist without Byram forcing Marner to rush his shot so UPL could make a clean save directing the puck to Dahlin’s corner where he quickly flipped it to Tuch who happened to be exactly where he should be and fed it to Peterka streaking up the opposite boards who took the D wide and dropped it back to a space created by Byram rushing the net for Tage who beat Woll with a perfect wrister.

Every player on the ice contributed, not just Peterka and Tuch with the assists.

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

83 points in, 124 points out - that’s your better starting point 

Your more objective starting point 

It’s not 33% more out, as simplifying to “goals” would suggest. I’d wager it’s far closer to the ~50% marker using all points would suggest 

It isn't more objective. You then start to ignore roles, toi, team structure. None of this is more objective. 

Also, I went into JJP assists. If you think Peterka is going to run at 1 secondary assist per 60mins again this year, fine but I will bet on that dropping without Tage or Tuch being on his line. Over half his assists are 2nd assists and those fluctuate. 41 assists! LOOK! yea but 23 of those were 2nd assists. 

[LGR4GM]

JJP and 2nd assists: 

2022: 7

2023: 12

2024: 23

JJP and 1st assists:

2022: 13

2023: 10

2024: 18

And Kesselring 16 primary, 6 secondary assists

Doan 8primary, 4 secondary assists

and neither player was given the ice time all year or the linemates Peterka got.