Does winning matter?

[RangerDave]

In a recent discussion, a few people opined that winning doesn't matter to Mr. Pegula.  I could not fathom this, as he was pretty emotional when he purchased the team about wanting to win a Stanley Cup.  He seemed to be a genuine fan of the Buffalo Sabres.

Now, I received a survey from the Sabres organization asking about game day experience.  There were a few questions about the team's performance and how much that matters regarding whether I attend a game or not.  But there were also several questions about what I call the "entertainment experience."  Things like the music, or the food, or the entertainment on the ice betweens periods, or... whatever.  I started thinking about a game I went to last year where there were 4 guys seated behind us.  All they talked about during play was the bets they had placed on things like the score at the end of the period, who would be winning, or whatever things people bet on nowadays.  After the period ended, the 4 guys left and never returned to their seats.  But, they had purchased tickets for the game.

This has me thinking:  Is it more important to entertain the people in the stands (or watching on TV) than it is to satisfy the actual hockey fans who care whether the team wins or not?  Is there more money to be made by attracting casual fans who need to be "entertained" by things other than the game and its results?  Do actual "Sabres fanatics" matter anymore?  Between casual fans and fans of the opposing teams, it seems like more seats are filled by them than actual Sabres fans.

The NFL seems to be aware of this, too.  Halftime entertainment, music, food options, 6-hour pregame shows, scoreboard clips in between play, etc.

The Super Bowl is widely regarded as no longer being a football contest pitting the two top teams, but rather a "mega event" that attracts A-list celebrities.  Is that happening to all sports and at every game now?

[msw2112]

This is an interesting topic.  I have a mixed response.  Having grown up in Buffalo, when it comes to the Bills and Sabres, it's all about the product on the field/ice.  I don't care at all about the rest of the entertainment experience (provided I can do the simple things like get a beer or take a leak during the game without missing 30% of the game waiting in line).  I always arrive prior to kickoff/puck drop and stay until the game is over, regardless of the score.  Even in a blowout, it's interesting to me to see how the backup QB performs or if the rookie winger scores a goal.

That said, I have lived outside of Buffalo for quite some time now and have lived in big cities with most/all of the major pro sports teams.  I have no interest in season tickets, but frequently come across tickets to games.  For those games, I'm just as interested in the food, entertainment, music, betting, cheerleaders, and hanging out with the people I'm at the game with, etc. (or more) than the game itself.  I have no problem arriving late or leaving early.  For example, I went to an Arizona Cardinals-New Orleans Saints game.  I really didn't care who won the game, but made a small internet wager on the game, just for fun.  Whether I won my bet was more interesting to me than the game itself.  Having a comfortable seat was important to me.  If I'm at a Bills game, I hardly use the seat.  I've been to NFL, NHL, NBA, and MLB games around the country and enjoy the event as a whole, but usually don't really care who wins.  Every been to a mid-season NBA game?  They're snoozers until the last 5 minutes.  Or a MLB game before the pennant races start heating up?  I find it hard to focus too much prior to the 8th or 9th inning.

Over the years, I've turned down many free NFL tickets (mostly Cardinals and Bears) so I could watch the Bills on TV.  I'm just not invested in those teams, yet don't want to miss a minute of Bills action.  The tailgate/pregame (and/or postgame) is often more interesting to me than the game itself.

[PerreaultForever]

Winning is all that matters. 

[mjd1001]

I think the NHL believes, maybe its true, that winning is NOT all that matters.  Toronto is a great example.  The 'everday' fan has been mostly priced out of the games.  Yeah, there are some, but a lot of the crowd seems to be from a higher 'social-economic' class.  And do they want the team to win? Sure they do, but it also appears for them its more about a 'night out', its about bragging they were at the game, its about the food, the entertainment.  

Then look at other cities. Kids days games are popular, and do the kids want the home team to win? Again, sure they do, but many times they are just as happy  with the music they can dance to between commercials, the games on the ice between periods, and they are happy to cheer for the home team when they score 3 goals, even though the opposing team scores 5.

Personally, I don't go to many games anymore. As a fan, I think I can see more, interact with others more, just get a better experience as a 'fan of the game' at home than I do in the Arena. But the few times I go to the arena, I want to be entertained.  Again, I can see the on-ice product just as well at home, maybe even better, so if I'm going to the game, you better give me good food, good entertainment, stuff I CAN'T get at home.

So yeah, I think the NHL, most sports leagues, and even the Sabres are going to lean into the entertainment aspect of the gameday experience.  Maybe not so much to get more people to come out (winning will do that, but the marketing dept can't fix that) but to find out what people are into and see how they can extract more money from the people that do show up.

[PerreaultForever]

Oh the NHL doesn't care who wins (usually) and they are most definitely in the entertainment business but that league view is different than a team's view. The league just wants things it can sell, be that McJesus or other superstars or even Rat Kings. They will market whatever is going. A team however needs a winning culture and a belief that the team is doing all it can to try to win. 

[That Aud Smell]

This is an interesting topic, and I'm glad to give it a bump.

It's a delicate balance that these pro sports leagues are trying to strike.

The leagues and teams want and need their hardcore fans. To varying degrees, they need those fans to ensure gate revenues are solid. Moreover, they need the hardcore fans for the value they add to the brand. Think about how important the fans are to a televised sporting event -- the noise they make, the hijinx they get into, and so on.

But increasingly, most people can't and/or don't care to attend live pro sporting events. With the advent of high definition mega screens, it is so much easier to watch the game from the comfort of one's own home.

So the leagues and teams must respond by doing more to attract a wider segment of the population to the stadium or arena. Gamblers, sure. Kids Day promotions. And on and on.

For my money, there is nothing, nothing, like the feeling you can get when you're joining in the frenzy of thousands (even 10s of thousands) in support of the home team.

But I think a lot of people view the live sports experience as something they can do without, or at least something that's not worth all the expense, trouble, and time associated with going to a game.

Sorry for the long but inchoate post. This is a big question.

[JP51]

Does winning matter for TP... I would say this... you almost have to make it your mission to be out of the playoffs for this long... like literally you have to focus hard on being incompetent...  now I am not saying that he is trying to lose... but geez... I am running out of explanations other than legitimately he is clueless, fancies himself as the great Hockey oracle and only hires people who sycophant that notion... and keep who he likes...  so I think he would like to win to prove that he is the great white knight... but in the end... being in control of his toy and making money are way more important...  because lets not fool ourselves... once he got the Bills, they became his business per se... and Hockey was his toy hobby... or at least in my opinion...  

[bob_sauve28]

19 hours ago, RangerDave said:

In a recent discussion, a few people opined that winning doesn't matter to Mr. Pegula.  I could not fathom this, as he was pretty emotional when he purchased the team about wanting to win a Stanley Cup.  He seemed to be a genuine fan of the Buffalo Sabres.

Now, I received a survey from the Sabres organization asking about game day experience.  There were a few questions about the team's performance and how much that matters regarding whether I attend a game or not.  But there were also several questions about what I call the "entertainment experience."  Things like the music, or the food, or the entertainment on the ice betweens periods, or... whatever.  I started thinking about a game I went to last year where there were 4 guys seated behind us.  All they talked about during play was the bets they had placed on things like the score at the end of the period, who would be winning, or whatever things people bet on nowadays.  After the period ended, the 4 guys left and never returned to their seats.  But, they had purchased tickets for the game.

This has me thinking:  Is it more important to entertain the people in the stands (or watching on TV) than it is to satisfy the actual hockey fans who care whether the team wins or not?  Is there more money to be made by attracting casual fans who need to be "entertained" by things other than the game and its results?  Do actual "Sabres fanatics" matter anymore?  Between casual fans and fans of the opposing teams, it seems like more seats are filled by them than actual Sabres fans.

The NFL seems to be aware of this, too.  Halftime entertainment, music, food options, 6-hour pregame shows, scoreboard clips in between play, etc.

The Super Bowl is widely regarded as no longer being a football contest pitting the two top teams, but rather a "mega event" that attracts A-list celebrities.  Is that happening to all sports and at every game now?

Great question. I'll just add this. I attended two games late in the year they both won, but the fans I was sitting around had no clue about hockey, it seemed to me. They were there, wanting the team to win, but also just enjoying the situation. When they are winning, though, there are way more people involved in the team, but are they just along for the ride? 

And as someone who played a lot of beer league hockey, I know for a fact "being there" was just fine for a lot of the players and winning was only a fun perk that wasn't all that necassary. Those people frustrated me, but they exist 

[bob_sauve28]

2 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

 

For my money, there is nothing, nothing, like the feeling you can get when you're joining in the frenzy of thousands (even 10s of thousands) in support of the home team.

 

This is so true! I would just say that going to a Sabres game is just so much fun and way better, for me anyway, than Bills games. It just seems easier to get in and out of Sabres games. 

[That Aud Smell]

14 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

This is so true! I would just say that going to a Sabres game is just so much fun and way better, for me anyway, than Bills games. It just seems easier to get in and out of Sabres games. 

absolutely true.

Bills games are a commitment, man. It always feels like an all-day or late-night event. And I don't even do much in the way of tailgating!

[msw2112]

15 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Winning is all that matters. 

I think you're missing the nuance.  Winning matters if you are attending a game involving a team that you're a fan of.  There's no disagreement there.

But if you're in Buffalo on a business trip, not from Buffalo, and maybe not even a hockey fan, but attending a Sabres game, does winning matter to you?  Or are you more interested in a comfortable seat, the video board, the food options, etc.?

When I attend a Bills or Sabres game, it's all about winning.  When I attend a Seattle Mariners vs. Detroit Tigers MLB game, I really don't care about winning.  It's more about the overall experience.

If the survey is specifically targeted at Sabres season ticket holders and/or serious Sabres fans, then yes, winning is priority #1.

[PerreaultForever]

23 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

I think you're missing the nuance.  Winning matters if you are attending a game involving a team that you're a fan of.  There's no disagreement there.

But if you're in Buffalo on a business trip, not from Buffalo, and maybe not even a hockey fan, but attending a Sabres game, does winning matter to you?  Or are you more interested in a comfortable seat, the video board, the food options, etc.?

When I attend a Bills or Sabres game, it's all about winning.  When I attend a Seattle Mariners vs. Detroit Tigers MLB game, I really don't care about winning.  It's more about the overall experience.

If the survey is specifically targeted at Sabres season ticket holders and/or serious Sabres fans, then yes, winning is priority #1.

Well see I'm not missing it, I just don't care about the tourist. 

The thing about the Sabres (and that's all that matters here) is they often do not seem serious about winning. When you announce up front that it's "a development year" wtf are you doing? Winning and learning to want to win (and hate to lose) is part of development. Adams comes in and it's like in 5 years we will be good, that's his promise (which he failed to deliver on but didn't get fired anyway) and so he tears it down and we start. The expectation however should be better every year and they just aren't. We are the same, picking around the same spot, and we are entering the next wave of possible exits. It's absolute garbage. Rob Blake got fired because he couldn't get past a Stanley Cup finalist. Where's the bar here in comparison???

[CallawaySabres]

If you are young enough to just enjoy being at a game and not really concerned with the outcome, I would say yeah, maybe for kids 14 and under. Other than that, winning is all that matters. Currently, you could not PAY me to go see the crap that has been on the ice over the last 10 years. If they were in a playoff spot in February and they lost, whatever, fine. 

I had seasons for the last 10 years (not last year) and turned down tons of invites to go to a game in 2024. There is ZERO entertainment value for going to see this garbage. Just thinking about how pathetic this whole organization is makes me angry, and going to a game would just exaggerate that emotion. I legitimately despise everything that is Buffalo Sabres related and I am one of their biggest fans. I hate Pegula for what he has done to the fans of this city...HATE.

[Weave]

Entertainment matters. Winning matters too, but alot of that is in the context of entertainment.  The Bills lost era had big crowds because the overall experience was always entertaining.  When the Sabres are not a good team there is nothing in the arena experience to make up for it.  The Sabres need to be a good team to have the overall experience be entertaining enough to justify the effort and expense to attend a game.