... Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 11 hours ago, dudacek said: Here are some things people should know about contracts before they dig in about Owen Power: This year he had the salary cap hit of a 7th defenceman ($916K) This year, the median 1st-pairing defenceman cap hit was about $6.5M Next year he will be paid like an above-average 1st-pairing defenceman ($8.35M) Next year, the median 1st-pairing defenceman cap hit will be between $7-7.5M (depending on free agent signings) Every year for the next 7, Power's contract will likely be passed by a handful of players until at the end of his contract he will be getting paid like a good 2nd-pairing defenceman Here are some things people should know about performance before they dig in about Owen Power: he produced total points like a 1st-pairing defenceman he produced ES points like a 1st-pairing defenceman he ate ice time like a 1st-pairing defenceman he threw hits like a borderline 2nd/3rd pairing defenceman he blocked shots like a 2nd-pairing defenceman he avoided giveaways like a 2nd-pairing defenceman he forced takeaways like a 2nd-pairing defenceman he avoided taking penalties like a 1st-pairing defenceman he had the shot attempt possession numbers of a 1st-pairing defenceman he had the goals for % numbers of a 1st-pairing defenceman he had the expected goals for numbers of a 1st-pairing defenceman he had the expected goals against numbers of a 2nd-pairing defenceman And by 1st, 2nd and 3rd, I mean he ranked in the top, middle or bottom 3rd of the league's defencemen who played at least 60 games. He's also apparently the NHL's best stretch passer but I could not find any stats on zone exits created or prevented. He was one of just 6 U22 defencemen to play 70 NHL games this year. Think of the return someone like this alone would get. Add in a "top prospect" and we could totally retool this team to be a contender. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Weave said: The hate is really minimal. Folks can’t criticize without being labeled a hater. SMH My only complaint is that he really works to avoid contact. Before anyone responds with something, something, Pronger, something. The vast majority of us mentioning his avoidance of contact are not expecting a banger. It’s simply that, were he to use his physical frame to wedge and trap guys along the boards or box out forwards in the front of the net, his play would improve even more. It’s such an obvious gap in his game. Absolutely this. Power still plays the game too often like he's a full-grown man playing against a pack of 12-year-olds and he doesn't want to hurt or embarrass anybody. What I need to see from him is less about punishing people and more about defensive assertiveness. His is a game is built on patience, finesse and thinking one step ahead, but there are so many instances where what's needed is just the simple elimination of "your" man. You don't need to hurt him, you don't need to worry about your next play, you just need to step up with authority to prevent him from making his. Edited April 11 by dudacek 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted April 11 Author Report Share Posted April 11 (edited) 17 minutes ago, ... said: Think of the return someone like this alone would get. Add in a "top prospect" and we could totally retool this team to be a contender. I wonder if anyone has proposed this trade somewhere in this forum very recently Edited April 11 by inkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 5 minutes ago, inkman said: I wonder if anyone has proposed this trade somewhere in this forum very recently I've been proposing it for at least the last third of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 The problem with this is we have all this awesomeness and it doesn't amount to much in the standings. I bet similar glistening analytical evaluations can be offered for several other Sabres. It has to be reconciled with the eye test... Of actual games and actual standings. It would seem to point to coaching and a losing culture. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 10 minutes ago, Weave said: The hate is really minimal. Folks can’t criticize without being labeled a hater. SMH My only complaint is that he really works to avoid contact. Before anyone responds with something, something, Pronger, something. The vast majority of us mentioning his avoidance of contact are not expecting a banger. It’s simply that, were he to use his physical frame to wedge and trap guys along the boards or box out forwards in the front of the net, his play would improve even more. It’s such an obvious gap in his game. Thank you, thank you, thank you. The over use of the word "hater". Disagreement, or not liking something, is not hate. But some people are now conditioned to call anyone who does not agree with them haters. It has become a careless over-reaction and a mechanism to vilify those who have deferring opinions. It is a lazy. Back to Owen Power - I cannot think of any Pronger-like defenseman today. Chara is gone. Dare I say the game has changed some? If Power will just learn to use his body effectively - wedge, trap, box out, use size and reach as leverage - he could become great. The Sabres had a defenseman named Bill Hajt who also was not a banger or a fighter. But he was big and strong, and he used his body effectively as you describe. He had a good outlet pass and would use his size and reach to create the room needed to smartly make the breakout work. He was a lifetime +318 in 854 games playing mostly on a second pairing. You probably were not going to score a goal on the Sabres with Billy on the ice during his prime years. He is an afterthought now, in nobody's hall of fame, but he mastered what you are asking for playing 13 seasons with no minus years. Power can do that and so much more given his offensive skills and his vision. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 (edited) 41 minutes ago, PASabreFan said: The problem with this is we have all this awesomeness and it doesn't amount to much in the standings. I bet similar glistening analytical evaluations can be offered for several other Sabres. It has to be reconciled with the eye test... Of actual games and actual standings. It would seem to point to coaching and a losing culture. Maybe. But if you applied a similar exercise this year to Thompson, Tuch, Cozens and Skinner I doubt the results would be nearly as shiny, especially when you add the power play to the equation. Whether it's commitment, culture, coaching or circumstance at fault, a significant portion of the failures of this season can be laid at the feet of our top forwards. Edited April 11 by dudacek 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 (edited) 2 hours ago, PASabreFan said: The problem with this is we have all this awesomeness and it doesn't amount to much in the standings. I bet similar glistening analytical evaluations can be offered for several other Sabres. It has to be reconciled with the eye test... Of actual games and actual standings. It would seem to point to coaching and a losing culture. Overall collection of talent 1 hour ago, dudacek said: Maybe. But if you applied a similar exercise this year to Thompson, Tuch, Cozens and Skinner I doubt the results would be nearly as shiny, especially when you add the power play to the equation. Whether it's commitment, culture, coaching or circumstance at fault, a significant portion of the failures of this season can be laid at the feet of our top forwards. Or even outright aptitude “Sabres are of course adequately talented” isn’t the free space people think it is roster construction is significantly lacking, it’s the operative reason for the record being what it is and you are what your record is. (The culture manifests itself in the construction of said roster but it doesn’t NEED to) Power just isn’t part of the issue Edited April 11 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matter2003 Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 22 hours ago, inkman said: No idea how good the stat is but it’s something I guess He was excellent at them last year as well. One of the biggest drivers of the Sabres offense last year was Power starting the breaks up ice with those long passes out of his own zone. The offensive numbers with him on the ice versus off the ice last year was a pretty large gap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ska-T Chitown Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 4 hours ago, Weave said: The hate is really minimal. Folks can’t criticize without being labeled a hater. SMH My only complaint is that he really works to avoid contact. Before anyone responds with something, something, Pronger, something. The vast majority of us mentioning his avoidance of contact are not expecting a banger. It’s simply that, were he to use his physical frame to wedge and trap guys along the boards or box out forwards in the front of the net, his play would improve even more. It’s such an obvious gap in his game. I do tend to over generalize, that's on me. As with many things, it is probably the vocal minority that is driving opinion. I definitely don't lump people, such as yourself, who point out ways you hope he improves or things you wish he did better with the "power sucks, trade him now" crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 3 hours ago, dudacek said: Maybe. But if you applied a similar exercise this year to Thompson, Tuch, Cozens and Skinner I doubt the results would be nearly as shiny, especially when you add the power play to the equation. Whether it's commitment, culture, coaching or circumstance at fault, a significant portion of the failures of this season can be laid at the feet of our top forwards. There are coaches that can take commitment to higher levels than we have been seeing. The newly committed Sabres have to start working on 24-25 the same day they clean out their lockers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 1 hour ago, Pimlach said: There are coaches that can take commitment to higher levels than we have been seeing. The newly committed Sabres have to start working on 24-25 the same day they clean out their lockers. They’ll “work” on it by aging. It’s a symptom of a young team. If the aim isn’t achieving success in the now we’ll just have to wait. Buffalo didn’t just randomly draft a bunch of players with motivation issues coincidentally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 (edited) In our wanderings through the desert one of the most disheartening things is the shift over time, probably out of being utterly flabbergasted, to blaming the intangible. It’s not a logical pursuit. The more we alleviate blame from the tangible, talent based output of 23 players and their sum total in favour of ONE solitary variable and individual, who we are asking to contribute something we’d even struggle to define (make these 23 men care), the more we’ll find ourselves in circles The issue isn’t the 1, it’s the 23. It’s not even arguably close The 23 have far more of an effect on the result If you are counting on 1 to buoy the 23, you’ve ALREADY LOST Edited April 11 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 3 hours ago, Thorny said: Power just isn’t part of the issue In the context of being part of a poorly constructed roster, he is part of the issue. All 23 are part of the issue as they are all equal (more or less) components of an ill conceived team makeup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 12 minutes ago, Weave said: In the context of being part of a poorly constructed roster, he is part of the issue. All 23 are part of the issue as they are all equal (more or less) components of an ill conceived team makeup. I see what you’re saying but if we have too many Owen Powers the issue is the other weaker/redundant Owen Power on the team not the actual OP. OP isn’t the guy we’d shift away from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ska-T Chitown Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 29 minutes ago, Thorny said: In our wanderings through the desert one of the most disheartening things is the shift over time, probably out of being utterly flabbergasted, to blaming the intangible. It’s not a logical pursuit. The more we alleviate blame from the tangible, talent based output of 23 players and their sum total in favour of ONE solitary variable and individual, who we are asking to contribute something we’d even struggle to define (make these 23 men care), the more we’ll find ourselves in circles The issue isn’t the 1, it’s the 23. It’s not even arguably close The 23 have far more of an effect on the result If you are counting on 1 to buoy the 23, you’ve ALREADY LOST I was sorta struggling with your point, thinking to myself "but a coach is a tangible thing", but then realizing that is again thinking ONE thing (tangible or intangible) vs making many adjustments of various sizes. What frustrates me with the whole situation is that I am a part of the team, right? Every single thing every poster on SS has said could be 100% true, 100% false, or any degree in between, because it is all speculation. Pegula is absent, Pegula meddles. Country club, no accountability, etc etc. And it sorta dawned on me that this whole thing is like one giant mathematical permutation of 1^(super high number) of possibilities... all we know is that where the team (organization) is at right now is broken. Maybe Donnie is a great coach, but the team is a toxic clique of spoiled brats? But they support him! Of course they would say that ... you can't publicly say you don't support the coach ... look at Jack - he still carries a stigma (at least in Buffalo circles) as a coach killer. It is sad that a fresh expansion team had better roster construction than the sabres did. Not gonna lie, I lost the thread. Thorny, I respect the hell outta your hockey opinions, even agree most of the time! This was more about a brain dump, than it was an actual reply to your post ... your post just got the wheels spinning - which is why I respect your postings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 4 minutes ago, ska-T Chitown said: I was sorta struggling with your point, thinking to myself "but a coach is a tangible thing", but then realizing that is again thinking ONE thing (tangible or intangible) vs making many adjustments of various sizes. What frustrates me with the whole situation is that I am a part of the team, right? Every single thing every poster on SS has said could be 100% true, 100% false, or any degree in between, because it is all speculation. Pegula is absent, Pegula meddles. Country club, no accountability, etc etc. And it sorta dawned on me that this whole thing is like one giant mathematical permutation of 1^(super high number) of possibilities... all we know is that where the team (organization) is at right now is broken. Maybe Donnie is a great coach, but the team is a toxic clique of spoiled brats? But they support him! Of course they would say that ... you can't publicly say you don't support the coach ... look at Jack - he still carries a stigma (at least in Buffalo circles) as a coach killer. It is sad that a fresh expansion team had better roster construction than the sabres did. Not gonna lie, I lost the thread. Thorny, I respect the hell outta your hockey opinions, even agree most of the time! This was more about a brain dump, than it was an actual reply to your post ... your post just got the wheels spinning - which is why I respect your postings. Hey look I struggled with my point, too, when writing it. I’m not sure if it makes sense either haha. My aim is rarely to add sense to the discussion but rather to promote questioning of the entire enterprise, and all its facets. I think what I mean by “intangible” is the thing Granato is most criticized for is the team being unready to play, no? So, a lack of motivation. A person’s ability to “provide motivation” is a significantly more intangible thing to measure than, say, a player’s ability to score goals, no? Betting too much on this intangible variable is a very frivolous course to take imo. Rife with inherent risk. For one, motivation may not be the problem. And 2, again, if *23 guys* don’t have the proper motivation, if you are asking one guy to carry the slack for 23, you are already in massive trouble all teams occasionally need a fresh messsge. That’s where the “coaches are hired to be fired” thing comes from. But if your team CONSISTENTLY misses the message and the message is “game starts at 7”, it sort of imo defies logic to blame the coach. How stupid would the players have to be to not realize the importance of starting on time. If they are incapable of leaning it, it’s a player issue. But they aren’t incapable. Can’t we just employ a bit of Occam’s razor here? It’s a team full of kids and that’s the likely reason for the lack of focus. The lack of expectations from the GM only feeds this It’s ultimately on the players. But the players don’t roster themselves: there’s someone responsible for the collection 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 6 hours ago, ... said: I've been proposing it for at least the last third of the season. Me, too. Earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 1 hour ago, Thorny said: They’ll “work” on it by aging. It’s a symptom of a young team. If the aim isn’t achieving success in the now we’ll just have to wait. Buffalo didn’t just randomly draft a bunch of players with motivation issues coincidentally Skinner is aging but …. not all players are motivated. At least Brind’Amour thought so You cannot deny some coaches motivate players better than others. I see a roster that verbally rallied around their coach, and proceeded to play .500 hockey all season long, putting him in danger of being fired. The aging process helps, as does a coach. I think this team has reach their peak with this staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Pimlach said: Skinner is aging but …. not all players are motivated. At least Brind’Amour thought so You cannot deny some coaches motivate players better than others. I see a roster that verbally rallied around their coach, and proceeded to play .500 hockey all season long, putting him in danger of being fired. The aging process helps, as does a coach. I think this team has reach their peak with this staff. And they did the same thing last season. The record is a reflection of their talent and construction: not a reflection a of coach not alchemically inspiring them to greater heights. I’m not saying a coach makes no difference I’m saying the margins aren’t close to what you are making them, when we see such an EXTREME issue consistently arise, that of slow starts, it’s a player issue. I’ll ask again, how could the players possibly not understand the need to start on time? What could a new coach possibly say that would make them go, “oh, I get it.” ? If they can’t grasp such an obvious fact it’s assuredly on the group It’s a group born into, baptized, and moulded by a narrative from on high that preaches patience and process and imo an aversion to real-time expectations and this bleeds into the very fabric of the construction of a roster asking a coach to go in and wave his wand and change the very nature of what Adams assembled is absurd Edited April 11 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted April 12 Report Share Posted April 12 2 minutes ago, Thorny said: And they did the same thing last season. The record is a reflection of their talent and construction: not a reflection a of coach not alchemically inspiring them to greater heights. I’m not saying a coach makes no difference I’m saying the margins aren’t close to what you are making them, when we see such an EXTREME issue consistently arise, that of slow starts, it’s a player issue. I’ll ask again, how could the players possible not understand the need to start on time? What could a new coach possibly say that would make them go, “oh, I get it.” ? If they can’t grasp such an obvious fact it’s assuredly on the group It’s a group both and moulded by a narrative from on high that preaches patience and process and imo an aversion to real-time expectations and this bleeds into the very fabric of the construction of a roster asking a coach to go in and wave his wand and change the very nature of what Adams assembled is absurd If you’re saying we need lots of internal leadership from the players I agree. Players leading by example and influencing others is always better than a coaches pep talk/magic wand. I never implied that. I was talking about coaches that demand commitment, and get it. That alone lasts for awhile and the team improves. But all coaches will eventually be ignored to various levels, that’s when having players that are great leaders will keep the team at a high level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted April 12 Report Share Posted April 12 30 minutes ago, Pimlach said: If you’re saying we need lots of internal leadership from the players I agree. Players leading by example and influencing others is always better than a coaches pep talk/magic wand. I never implied that. I was talking about coaches that demand commitment, and get it. That alone lasts for awhile and the team improves. But all coaches will eventually be ignored to various levels, that’s when having players that are great leaders will keep the team at a high level. It’s not even leadership, it’s more appropriately described as simply experience. Why is being a young team considered a significant positive by some? Because you expect young players to get better. Right. So older players are better players, generally. So perhaps icing more older players would lead to better performance. It’s really that simple. We need a good coach to help with that progression, but even if you get the help that progression isn’t instant, and it can’t be avoided. The experience has to take place. The idea seems to be to more less just wait on it. So, by all means, change the coach. A good one will help that next stage become realized. But we are still talking in terms of in undefinable future if we aren’t willing to add more experienced players to the roster in the now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted April 12 Report Share Posted April 12 2 hours ago, Thorny said: I see what you’re saying but if we have too many Owen Powers the issue is the other weaker/redundant Owen Power on the team not the actual OP. OP isn’t the guy we’d shift away from Tell me the return first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer Posted April 12 Report Share Posted April 12 12 hours ago, Thorny said: And they did the same thing last season. The record is a reflection of their talent and construction: not a reflection a of coach not alchemically inspiring them to greater heights. I’m not saying a coach makes no difference I’m saying the margins aren’t close to what you are making them, when we see such an EXTREME issue consistently arise, that of slow starts, it’s a player issue. I’ll ask again, how could the players possibly not understand the need to start on time? What could a new coach possibly say that would make them go, “oh, I get it.” ? If they can’t grasp such an obvious fact it’s assuredly on the group It’s a group born into, baptized, and moulded by a narrative from on high that preaches patience and process and imo an aversion to real-time expectations and this bleeds into the very fabric of the construction of a roster asking a coach to go in and wave his wand and change the very nature of what Adams assembled is absurd Well said, @Thorny and solely a result of this regime’s making… Also know when you change the conditions, you change the behavior… Abysmal starts went on for months… What did Adams and Granato change?… Nothing, really. Juggled a line or two. Cut minutes on a few guys late in the season. If it’s on the players as you say, management never got their attention… Adams, Granato, and Okposo failed as leaders. We got rid of Okposo, a good man but a miserable Captain, imo… Time to get rid of the others… Do it in the offseason or do it during the season on a probationary basis as someone suggested… But at the first whiff of complacency… as evidenced by a lack of Commitment to Winning… Cut bait. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted April 12 Author Report Share Posted April 12 I like Power more than Dahlin. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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